Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discussion

[Aragorn]

Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

One thing that did bug me a bit....why wasn't the gravity going all wonky on the ice level as well?

For the same reason Saito could delay the inevitable result of his gunshot wound a little more with each level they went down.

 

[T'Baio]

Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

They did feel some of the shock on the Goldeneye level...hence the avalanche. But it dissipates each level it goes down.

Saw it again last night, and while I still think it's a really entertaining movie that is more intelligent than most, I think it's greatest flaw is how literal it is. It's really not complicated, really is not a mind fuck in any way...it's just a well written story with well written convolutions. Those do threaten to strangle the picture at times, and I wonder if all the "brilliant, mind fuck" talk is merely a result of those overly complicated, deus ex machina convolutions. As in, it's so overly worked over and folded within itself, with faux, unnecessary risk creations such as limbo, that it just seems brilliant if you don't look past the facade.

Don't get me wrong, I love the film and think it's very well done and is one of the best movies of the year by far. But that's because it's a great science fiction-y, action oriented heist yarn with good characterization and an added level of depth that is really entertaining...not because it's brilliant or a mind fuck.

 

[thumbtack]

Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

I'm not sure how I would rate it. Yes, the movie navigates its own internal logic with a deft and expertise that is quite rare today. It's just that its own internal logic is so unbelievably stupid. If you give it points for its dexterous filmmaking, you also have to take away points for the ludicrous conceit behind it all. There is just way too much suspension of disbelief required to remain engaged in the story, which consistently hovers between ridiculous and absurd.

 

[bigdaddy]

Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

It's really not complicated, really is not a mind fuck in any way...it's just a well written story with well written convolutions.

I wonder if all the "brilliant, mind fuck" talk is merely a result of those overly complicated, deus ex machina convolutions.

It's because people are stupid.

I was going into the movie thinking it would confuse the hell out of me and have this huge shocking ending that would be a mind fuck.

It wasn't, and it didn't. It was just an enjoyable movie that the masses want to believe was a "mind fuck" because they are so fucking stupid they can't understand a movie that explains everything perfectly.

 

[Aragorn]

Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

And it seems that Nolan is constantly trying too hard to fool his audience that you can't relly enjoy it.

How is he trying to fool his audience? This is a very straightforward story.

 

[JoeZhang]

Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

They did feel some of the shock on the Goldeneye level...hence the avalanche. But it dissipates each level it goes down.

Saw it again last night, and while I still think it's a really entertaining movie that is more intelligent than most, I think it's greatest flaw is how literal it is. It's really not complicated, really is not a mind fuck in any way...it's just a well written story with well written convolutions. Those do threaten to strangle the picture at times, and I wonder if all the "brilliant, mind fuck" talk is merely a result of those overly complicated, deus ex machina convolutions. As in, it's so overly worked over and folded within itself, with faux, unnecessary risk creations such as limbo, that it just seems brilliant if you don't look past the facade.

Don't get me wrong, I love the film and think it's very well done and is one of the best movies of the year by far. But that's because it's a great science fiction-y, action oriented heist yarn with good characterization and an added level of depth that is really entertaining...not because it's brilliant or a mind fuck.

I feel pretty much the same, I saw it and left thinking "so what?" and forgot about it within 30 minutes.

 

[T'Baio]

Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

It was just an enjoyable movie that the masses want to believe was a "mind fuck" because they are so fucking stupid they can't understand a movie that explains everything perfectly.

 

[RoJoHen]

Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

It was just an enjoyable movie that the masses want to believe was a "mind fuck" because they are so fucking stupid they can't understand a movie that explains everything perfectly.

I have to agree with this. There was nothing about it that was hard to understand. People are either stupid, or they weren't paying attention.

 

[bigdaddy]

Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

It was just an enjoyable movie that the masses want to believe was a "mind fuck" because they are so fucking stupid they can't understand a movie that explains everything perfectly.

I have to agree with this. There was nothing about it that was hard to understand. People are either stupid, or they weren't paying attention.

It could be both, ADD and stupidity!

I'm so glad there are other smart people out there. The theater was full of 20-24 year olds and all of them seemed so fucking stupid.

 

[Trekker4747]

Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

I consider the movie a "mind fuck" but perhaps my definition is different than what others are saying here.

I understood the movie perfectly but by "mind fuck" I go with the way it makes my mind spin with the way the movie treated different elements of the "dream world" and how it works, dreams within dreams, the time dilation, etc. I understood the movie just fine, but it got the creative pieces of my mind spinning like crazy which I consider to be "enough of a mind fuck for me."

 

[Ryan]

Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

I wonder if all the "brilliant, mind fuck" talk is merely a result of those overly complicated, deus ex machina convolutions.

When the hell does the film ever use a deus ex machina?

 

[Trekker4747]

Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

I wonder if all the "brilliant, mind fuck" talk is merely a result of those overly complicated, deus ex machina convolutions.

When the hell does the film ever use a deus ex machina?

You could say the whole movie uses it. The way the dream-worlds work, the time dilation, hell the very dream devices themselves all seem to only occur/exsist because they need to for the plot to work.

Which is all fine and good because, well, they made it work. Deus ex machina isn't terrible if you use it right.

Using Seven's nano probes to solve Crisis of the Week? Poor use of deus ex machina.

Using an ill-defined and explained device to enter other people's dreams that have their own rules, laws, physics and way of working to tell an emotional story about a man letting go of a past regret and moving on to get to see his children again? Good use of deus ex machina.

 

[Rett Mikhal]

Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

There are some interesting ideas in the article. The possibility that Mal was right did occur to me independently, FWIW.

Ultimately I think the struggle to perceive reality is the message of the film. Similar to Hesienberg's theory of uncertainty when you get down to the molecular level with no point of origin to base movement, so do we have no basis for what we see except it's been like that as far back as we can remember.

Consider the real danger of Limbo: that you no longer trust reality and end up killing yourself trying to wake up. Since we have no base, no one can really be right or wrong.

I compared it to me asking you what you consider to be blue. You see a color in your mind and connect it, and know it to be blue, but how can you be 100% certain everyone sees colors exactly the same as you do? Maybe everyone sees things differently. Maybe some people see skin as purple. Maybe even black and white, the absence and absolute accumulation of all color, look different to other people as well. We'll never really know, because we can only see things through our eyes.

So the point of the film, for me, was that you can never really peel back all the layers of reality because you don't know where you begin and where it ends. An infinite loop of endless tangents.

Having said that, I found it to be a smart film, not a mind fuck. I would have to concur people who didn't pay attention in English class or otherwise never read a short story call it that to dodge having to actually think about it. I can confirm this based on the people I saw it with.

 

[Trekker4747]

Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

As I said in my post, it could also be people have a different idea on what a "mind fuck" is. For me a "mind fuck" is any movie that presents ideas in my mind that has my imagination stirring for a week afterwards on how well different aspects of the film were presented. Anything that can stir my mind and my imagination like this movie did is a "mind fuck" for me.

 

[Hyperspace05]

Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

I wonder if all the "brilliant, mind fuck" talk is merely a result of those overly complicated, deus ex machina convolutions.

When the hell does the film ever use a deus ex machina?

You could say the whole movie uses it. The way the dream-worlds work, the time dilation, hell the very dream devices themselves all seem to only occur/exsist because they need to for the plot to work.

Which is all fine and good because, well, they made it work. Deus ex machina isn't terrible if you use it right.

Using Seven's nano probes to solve Crisis of the Week? Poor use of deus ex machina.

Using an ill-defined and explained device to enter other people's dreams that have their own rules, laws, physics and way of working to tell an emotional story about a man letting go of a past regret and moving on to get to see his children again? Good use of deus ex machina.

Technically that is not "deus ex machina" at all. That term usually refers to plot-development that appear in the 3rd act, that have no setup whatsoever. It can only be described as an 'act of god/chance/luck' that saves the protagonist. There is IMO no such thing as a good "deus ex machina". It is always the result of bad screenwriting.

But in Inception, both the dream-sharing device and the time-dilation between dream levels is explained ahead of them impacting the plot. So it is not an example of "deus ex machina" at all.

 

[JacksonArcher]

Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

The extended ending for Inception.

 

[Trekker4747]

Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

When the hell does the film ever use a deus ex machina?

You could say the whole movie uses it. The way the dream-worlds work, the time dilation, hell the very dream devices themselves all seem to only occur/exsist because they need to for the plot to work.

Which is all fine and good because, well, they made it work. Deus ex machina isn't terrible if you use it right.

Using Seven's nano probes to solve Crisis of the Week? Poor use of deus ex machina.

Using an ill-defined and explained device to enter other people's dreams that have their own rules, laws, physics and way of working to tell an emotional story about a man letting go of a past regret and moving on to get to see his children again? Good use of deus ex machina.

Technically that is not "deus ex machina" at all. That term usually refers to plot-development that appear in the 3rd act, that have no setup whatsoever. It can only be described as an 'act of god/chance/luck' that saves the protagonist. There is IMO no such thing as a good "deus ex machina". It is always the result of bad screenwriting.

But in Inception, both the dream-sharing device and the time-dilation between dream levels is explained ahead of them impacting the plot. So it is not an example of "deus ex machina" at all.

The. Very. First. Sentence. Of your link:

...is a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new character, ability, or object.

I think this describes Seven's Nanoprobes or some new ability of Voyager's deflector dish perfectly.

 

[T'Baio]

Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

My use of the term deus ex machina was probably the wrong term to use, I apologize.

I'm referring to things like limbo. For instance, we set up in the beginning of the film that one cannot die in the dream world. This is set up for multiple reasons, probably of which one is it's fairly common knowledge at this point that dying in your dreams = dead in real life is total bullshit. So he couldn't go there. It was also probably done because all the characters, according to the conceits of the plot, are needed to go through each level, because in each level, it's someone else who is dreaming, so they can't die.

So the part where Cobb says; "oh by the way, there's this whole limbo problem right now because of the drugs and we'll go there if we die in the dreams, sorry I didn't tell you..." is like this false construct intended merely to produce risk and raise the stakes. But it's a last minute addition that is kind of as much a screw of the audience as it was to the characters. It was a new rule added too late in the game. You could say it serves the plot because it allows Cobb to deal with his character arc, but you could have easily written that exact shit happening with how Cobb's "subconscious was breaking through into all the dreams," and Mal taking it all over in some way and Cobb dealing with her there. As a matter of fact, I think that would have been more interesting.

BTW, I'd also like to mention that Cobb going through Saito's palace, or whatever it was, at the beginning and using the silencer to kill the guards...the way he was catching the expelled shells was AWESOME!

 

[Hyperspace05]

Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

The. Very. First. Sentence. Of your link:

...is a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new character, ability, or object.

I think this describes Seven's Nanoprobes or some new ability of Voyager's deflector dish perfectly.

I guess you missed that my reply was about Inception. You'know the topic of the thread?

 

[Hyperspace05]

Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss

T'Baio, you are correct in that the 'limbo' concept is introduced late in the film - so it is borderline 'Deus ex machina'. But not quite - as it is discussed before entered.