Americans, how popular is Doctor Who in America?

[Mr. Adventure]

Y'know, earlier I stated that Torchwood does better in the US than Who but I guess that might not be the case anymore. Seems Who has been doing pretty well for BBCA of late though of course it's hard to get good ratings numbers for cable off the web sometimes.


ETA: Saw this on Zap2It, mind you not much competition tonight but still....

 

[RoJoHen]

but I'm the only person in real life that I know that likes it.

I don't know why but this line just makes me laugh.

Perhaps it's the demarcationo or "real life" and his online life.

It's kinda as if RoJoHen is in some kind of Truman Show or something where everybody around him is a Stepford robot or something.

Thanks for the giggle on a cold wintery Saturday morning!

All I meant was that I've never met another American outside of this website who has ever watched Doctor Who.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Y'know, earlier I stated that Torchwood does better in the US than Who but I guess that might not be the case anymore. Seems Who has been doing pretty well for BBCA of late though of course it's hard to get good ratings numbers for cable off the web sometimes.

BBCA has been known to call it their top rated show.

 

[Cutter John]

I don't have any hard facts, but I suspect there are just as many serious Who fans in the US as there are in england ('Fans', as opposed to casual viewers). We're just more spread out here.

But really, I don't mind being part of a select group of people who 'get' DW. Just like Browncoats, Buffy fans, B5'ers, and people who still love ST:TOS. I think we're in good company.

 

[Peter the Younger]

It's reasonably popular here in the SF Bay Area; multiple people at my workplace know enough to ask about "the new guy playing the Doctor." (I have a TARDIS USB port on my desk.) Of course there is a fairly heavy tech concentration here, and hence, a heavy geek concentration, so I wouldn't read too much into it.

As for the "no guns" thing, I don't think it's the deciding factor the show's lack of traction here, but it is a factor. One more than one occasion, I've tried to get people into the show and, at one point or another, they will say, "Why don't they (the Daleks, the Cybermen, the Sontarans, etc.) just shoot him?" At that point I explain how the Doctor is so intelligent and quick witted that he can keep them baffled/interested just enough not to open fire, and sometimes people buy that, sometimes they don't.

This isn't unique to DW, though. Watching the first season of Survivors, I found myself increasingly annoyed by the main characters' inability to defend themselves. "Oh no, it's that skinny guy with the double-barreled shotgun again!" And here I am, the violent American, thinking "Go to a damned base or a police station, and arm yourselves."

 

[Alidar Jarok]

^Yeah, that was my point, though. A no-weapons hero is as alien to the US audiences as the Police Box....

And that was exactly what I was disagreeing with. I don't think the audience cares whether or not he doesn't use guns. It's not that hard to accept even if it's not common in America. It's just that we don't have any shows from other countries that aren't watched by more than niche audiences. The fact that it's a sci-fi show (a niche audience to begin with) lowers the number even more.

BTW, somebody mentioned PBS. Certainly, they show a couple of notable comedies from the UK, but PBS isn't really mainstream (compared to the main networks or to even significant cable networks). They get to show shows that are a bit different simply from the nature that they're publicly funded.

 

[Cyke101]

^Yeah, that was my point, though. A no-weapons hero is as alien to the US audiences as the Police Box....

And that was exactly what I was disagreeing with. I don't think the audience cares whether or not he doesn't use guns. It's not that hard to accept even if it's not common in America. [...] The fact that it's a sci-fi show (a niche audience to begin with) lowers the number even more.

I'd like to bring up Psych as an example. While not a sci-fi or niche show, the two heroes rarely if ever use weapons or violence when they solve crimes. The show is pretty popular, at least for cable.

And speaking of fake psychics, I don't watch The Mentalist, but does the titular character use weapons, too?

 

[bigdaddy]

Not at all, but it doesn't help that most people don't get BBC America... like me.

I have met a few people who know of it and don't really like it or have seen it, I know of one diehard fan, and that's it. During finales he was like "I should be writing one of my 40 pages of papers, but a new Doctor Who is up".

 

[The]

^I accept the example cited, so my theory might sincerely be in error. However, name a primetime successful science fiction show, on one of the major broadcast networks, that Doctor Who would actually work on.

NBC? Hardly. Not unless it has something to do with Law & Order, or can tie into The Office.

ABC? Only if they could redo it completely and call it LOST II.

CBS? Well, the elderly might be more open to it. But, I'm pretty certain the accents would throw them off immediately.

FOX? They had their shot...

So, while I agree that a mutual reason US audiences wouldn't be into Doctor Who is because of how cut-off generations have been from foreign television shows, I would also find it very hard to swallow that a majority would get into any lead character as "un-macho" as The Doctor. About the time he talked his way out of a situation, and the Dalek hasn't just shot him in meantime, the majority would probably tune out.

Now, all of this is based on past experience, versus the broader open minds of the 21st century and future citizens. But, I'm still pretty certain, without a network's primary support and backing, a marketing craze that finds a popular niche, The Doctor adopting an offensive-styled weapon, and an American "doorway" character, Doctor Who would be doomed on primetime US airwaves....

 

[Cyke101]

NBC? Hardly. Not unless it has something to do with Law & Order, or can tie into The Office.

Just get Tennant to mug for the camera like Jim Halpert and we'll be set!

ABC? Only if they could redo it completely and call it LOST II.

What we would then need is an actual arc development, something we only truly got under Moffat and not under RTD (no offense to the RTD fans here). ABC tried an RTD-style arc with Life on Mars, and that was cancelled.

CBS? Well, the elderly might be more open to it. But, I'm pretty certain the accents would throw them off immediately.

On the other hand, Big Bang Theory could be a GREAT lead-in, I think.

FOX? They had their shot...

Repeatedly, at that. I'm looking at you, Fringe! Also, upon rewatching Firefly, I'm surprised at how the dialogue beats are similar to both RTD and Moffat's versions of DW. But alas, that show went out even quicker...

So, while I agree that a mutual reason US audiences wouldn't be into Doctor Who is because of how cut-off generations have been from foreign television shows, I would also find it very hard to swallow that a majority would get into any lead character as "un-macho" as The Doctor. About the time he talked his way out of a situation, and the Dalek hasn't just shot him in meantime, the majority would probably tune out.

I sort of feel that the hero and the villains getting into an almost unrealistically-long dialogue before any action starts is typical of almost any show, however, because the characters want to understand each other/plot exposition. It's almost never that way in real life. Regardless of who has weapons, I think it's a staple of American TV.

Now, all of this is based on past experience, versus the broader open minds of the 21st century and future citizens. But, I'm still pretty certain, without a network's primary support and backing, a marketing craze that finds a popular niche, The Doctor adopting an offensive-styled weapon, and an American "doorway" character, Doctor Who would be doomed on primetime US airwaves....

I agree with all except the need for the offensive-style weapon, and even then there could be a character like Jack or the Brig to handle the fighting, I think. But I'm also reminded of Picard and how he's now a TV icon, but out of all the Trek captains he was the most pacifistic. He almost never personally fired a phaser, was a famed diplomat, and tended to think things out. Then again, he also had Riker, Worf, and Data do most of the fighting...

 

[The]

^However, Picard was in syndication. James T. Kirk is the one presented in prime time on NBC....

 

[Sci]

^However, Picard was in syndication. James T. Kirk is the one presented in prime time on NBC....

And yet Kirk himself was also a diplomat and negotiator. "The Corbomite Maneuver" comes to mind, as does his refusal to kill in "Arena." And besides, Mister Spock always eclipsed Captain Kirk in popularity.

And I've heard a hell of a lot of British fans complain about why the Daleks don't just shoot him already around these parts, too.

Bottom line: I think it's unfair to say that America is too caught up in machismo for Doctor Who to appeal, and I think it's unfair to say that the Britain that brings us Clive Owen and Christian Bale and James Bond is so much more enlightened that it doesn't fall into machismo culture.

 

[Psion]

As I recall, Fox Mulder repeatedly got the snot kicked out of him by the baddies in X-Files, yet that was a reasonably popular show on Fox. Mulder was a pretty un-macho hero.

 

[Cyke101]

^However, Picard was in syndication. James T. Kirk is the one presented in prime time on NBC....

And that didn't turn out so well until Kirk entered syndication, too

I wonder, though: could it be said that Picard was more popular during his original run than Kirk was in the 60s? I'm not trying to turn this into a Picard Vs. Kirk thread, I'm just honestly curious as to trends. And I'm well aware that without Kirk there'd be no TNG!

^However, Picard was in syndication. James T. Kirk is the one presented in prime time on NBC....

And yet Kirk himself was also a diplomat and negotiator. "The Corbomite Maneuver" comes to mind, as does his refusal to kill in "Arena." And besides, Mister Spock always eclipsed Captain Kirk in popularity.

Yeah, but I'm willing to bet that Kirk did more drop-kicks than Picard!

As I recall, Fox Mulder repeatedly got the snot kicked out of him by the baddies in X-Files, yet that was a reasonably popular show on Fox. Mulder was about a pretty un-macho hero.

From what I've seen of Red Shoe Diaries and Californication, I'm pretty sure Mulder is a lover, not a fighter

 

[Psion]

As I recall, Fox Mulder repeatedly got the snot kicked out of him by the baddies in X-Files, yet that was a reasonably popular show on Fox. Mulder was about a pretty un-macho hero.

From what I've seen of Red Shoe Diaries and Californication, I'm pretty sure Mulder is a lover, not a fighter

Yeah, but he really kicked selenium in Evolution.

 

[Cyke101]

As I recall, Fox Mulder repeatedly got the snot kicked out of him by the baddies in X-Files, yet that was a reasonably popular show on Fox. Mulder was about a pretty un-macho hero.

From what I've seen of Red Shoe Diaries and Californication, I'm pretty sure Mulder is a lover, not a fighter

Yeah, but he really kicked selenium in Evolution.

...with tons of hair conditioner!

 

[Psion]

From what I've seen of Red Shoe Diaries and Californication, I'm pretty sure Mulder is a lover, not a fighter

Yeah, but he really kicked selenium in Evolution.

...with tons of hair conditioner!

"You are so beautiful ... to me!"

 

[The]

^However, Picard was in syndication. James T. Kirk is the one presented in prime time on NBC....

And yet Kirk himself was also a diplomat and negotiator. "The Corbomite Maneuver" comes to mind, as does his refusal to kill in "Arena." And besides, Mister Spock always eclipsed Captain Kirk in popularity.

And Picard was a fighter when the script needed it. And besides, alien characters like Worf and Data were always more popular. Point is, Kirk's character worked in prime time. Picard worked in syndication. Not saying they wouldn't work swapped. Just making the point of the kind of television mainstream history we're talking.

And I've heard a hell of a lot of British fans complain about why the Daleks don't just shoot him already around these parts, too.

Agreed. However, they don't have the task of getting over culturally alien concepts. Americans would. And to withdraw that one primary familiarity of kill-or-be-killed, it would be a hard sell to a wider audience.

Bottom line: I think it's unfair to say that America is too caught up in machismo for Doctor Who to appeal, and I think it's unfair to say that the Britain that brings us Clive Owen and Christian Bale and James Bond is so much more enlightened that it doesn't fall into machismo culture.

And both actors cited have found their primary success in Hollywood, because of their machismo. Same with Jason Statham, and to a lesser degree, Vinnie Jones.

But, you present it as an "either/or" approach of better and worse. I'm not saying that at all, and I don't think I've even hinted that way in the previous discussions. I am only pointing out the cultural differences in our media, and the history therein. Not assigning moral judgment either way. Thus my point of Doctor Who not working on prime time American television without significant overhaul to the character and details, like giving him an offensive ability or weapon.

Would I like to sell a Doctor Who where that offensive ability or weapon was his mind? Naturally. But, that's a hard-sell for US audiences, depending on the current pop culture fads...

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Just look at the detective genre for examples of characters whose "offensive weapon" is his mind. Monk, for example. That show went on for years and the main character was allergic to guns. I don't watch shows like The Mentalist, Lie to Me or Psych, but I get the strong sense that the point is that the characters can solve problems without guns.

Doctor and lawyer shows are wildly popular, and those characters have to triumph based chiefly on their intelligence and skills. Doctor Who could be presented as one of those types of characters, with a particular skill set that the audience can relate to. That's all that's required - the idea that it has to involve guns or even fighting is absurd. How do all those sitcoms survive? I don't recall Tina Fey packin' heat.

I think the main hold-up to Doctor Who in America would be the tone. If he starts talking about culturally specific things Americans don't understand, they'll get bored and change the channel. Also, the way the show is pitched at both adults and children is a problem, since in America, shows are micro-targetted for audiences, according to demographics and interests - it's gotta be for adults or for children, but don't try to be both.

Unless Americans think, "this show is precisely for me," they'll change the channel. 500 channels of micro-targetted shows have trained Americans to have extremely itchy channel zapper fingers. That's why foreign shows don't work well on American TV - they haven't been targetted to their audience, and will be crushed by competing shows which have been targetted within an inch of their lives.

Doctor Who is culturally specific. It would have to be changed so utterly for the American market, it would no longer fit its original definition. It might be interesting as an experiment to see what would happen if you aired it on CBS at 8pm Wed, but I'm 99.9% certain the result would be ratings carnage.

A better idea (assuming that CBS is interested in sci fi at all, which it isn't) would be to create a new show from the ground up, precisely targetted at their audience. All shows that want to survive have to be tailor-made that way. And even then, 2/3rds of them are cancelled the first season. A show that isn't targetted doesn't have a prayer of survival in such a competitive field.

By the same token, if they try to adapt Torchwood to the American market, they're just going to end up with an X-Files knockoff, and we already have that - it's called Fringe. The whole idea is stupid. The Doctor Who/Torchwood people should accept that their products are culturally specific and just be content with that.

 

[Shatnertage]

I'm a US American, and I've really liked the show for about 30 years now. I don't know how many others feel as I do, and I don't really care, as long as BBC America keeps 'em coming...otherwise I'd have to wait for the DVDs.

Still jazzed about watching TBB last night. I'd been staying away from here in fear of accidentally reading some spoilers, and the payoff was worth it.