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Question: did the "reboot" *have* to so radically change things?

Cepstrum

Commander
Red Shirt
Disclaimer: I'm not a huge fan of Star Trek XI. I admit it was well-produced, but I didn't really like it — which isn't too bad considering that I never liked *any* of the movies very much: I prefer my Star Trek in episodic TV format.

But I admit that the movie was probably a good thing for Trek by reinvigorating things and, more importantly, infusing the franchise with both cash and cachet.

Now here's my question: as with many long-time Trek fans, especially those of the TNG era shows, I was saddened that the reboot essentially erased 24th century Trek as we know it. But did it *have* to be that way? Couldn't there have been an origin story produced by JJ Abrams that, while perhaps contradicting/erasing certain continuity portions of Kirk & Co.'s start in Star Fleet but *without* taking such drastic measures that ensures all 24th century Trek is erased?

I would think JJ could've *still* made the movie just as appealing to the general public, "reboot" the origins of how the Enterprise crew came together, but *without* doing irreparable damage to the timeline by, eg, destroying Vulcan. I can't imagine that radically changing the future and destroying Vulcan were consequential to the film's commercial success, and I highly doubt casual fans would have liked it less if Vulcan *hadn't* been destroyed — but that certainly saddened hard-core Trek fans like me who want to preserve the TNG era events.

I guess I just don't understand why Abrams couldn't have had all the fun with rebooting how Kirk et al. grew up and wound up on the Enterprise while still preserving the future. He could have approached as: "this is really how Kirk and Spock joined SF and the Enterptise."

So why risk alienating certain long-time fans by not only rebooting Kirk's origin story but also making it clear that nothing in the TNG era happened? I just can't believe it would matter to the non-Trekkie/Trekker movie-goers. They probably don't even know what Vulcan is, so why not blow up a new, made-up, non-Federation planet that just happens to be where Spock's mother is visiting — and that way keep his emotional outbursts just as plausible?

Please let me apologize twice in advance: first to the fans of the film, and second if this has already been discussed and concluded. If the latter's the case, could someone direct me to the appropriate thread? I'm using a mobile device — hence the undoubtedly typo-laden post — and it's difficult to conduct thorough searches.

Thanks for taking the time to read this as well as for your consideration. I very much hope to get answers to my questions. Thanks!
 
Welcome to the forum.

It's really very simple. Had Abrams just kept to the original universe, he and the writers would be extremely limited in what they could do, because that road has already been traveled by what came before it. We all know that the crew spend five years going where no man has gone before. We all know what happened with V'ger. With Genesis. With Khan. With Spock dying and living. With the whales. With the Klingons. With Kirk dying on the Enterprise-B.

Now, none of that has to happen, because there's a fresh slate to work with. And you may eventually find that these new adventures are just as good and legitimate as the old ones. Or even better.

So why risk alienating certain long-time fans by not only rebooting Kirk's origin story but also making it clear that nothing in the TNG era happened? I just can't believe it would matter to the non-Trekkie/Trekker movie-goers. They probably don't even know what Vulcan is, so why not blow up a new, made-up, non-Federation planet that just happens to be where Spock's mother is visiting — and that way keep his emotional outbursts just as plausible?

However, here's where you're wrong. If you browse on this site enough, you'll find that most long-time fans were perfectly happy with this movie. It's just a very small minority that weren't, and they wouldn't have been happy no matter if the movie was a reboot or just a genuine origin story of the prime universe, because they're too wrapped up in small insignificant details that only matter to them. And as far as "making it clear that nothing in the TNG era happened," you're wrong there too. The TNG era happened. I can turn on SPIKE or TBS or whatever channel is showing TNG these days, and still watch it. I can still watch my TNG DVDs. All of this stuff didn't disappear in a puff of smoke on the day Star Trek '09 premiered. It's been made very clear that the original universe is still just fine and dandy, running concurrently with this new universe, just like the Mirror universe is. The only difference is that nobody is telling stories from the original universe anymore. But that would have been the case whether this movie had been made or not.

Re: Vulcan being destroyed: It's called dramatic effect. When Kirk died on Veridian III, I'm sure you were upset about him, but did you really give a shit about the planet or its inhabitants getting destroyed? I didn't. Vulcan's destruction was not only a huge dramatic event, it was extremely gutsy of Abrams to do it, knowing how popular Spock's people and home planet is.
 
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With Kirk dying on the Enterprise-B.

Not really dying... until later. :techman:

Cepstrum said:
So why risk alienating certain long-time fans by not only rebooting Kirk's origin story but also making it clear that nothing in the TNG era happened?

Of course it happened; it's backstory to STXI. Ambassador ( see Unification ) Spock and Nero are both from that continuity. If none of it had happened, they wouldn't have been around to go back in time in the first place.
 
However, here's where you're wrong. If you browse on this site enough, you'll find that most long-time fans were perfectly happy with this movie. It's just a very small minority that weren't, and they wouldn't have been happy no matter if the movie was a reboot or just a genuine origin story of the prime universe, because they're too wrapped up in small insignificant details that only matter to them.
If you browse on this site enough, you'll find that most long-time fans would've been happy with a reboot or genuine origin story. It's just a very small minority that wouldn't have been happy no matter if the movie was a reboot or just a genuine origin story of the prime universe.
 
Ok, guys. Thanks very much for explaining this to me. And let me make it clear that I didn't hate the movie; I just don't like movies in general — Trek or not — and prefer serialized TV drama.

I see the point about radically shaking things up. Now that I think about it, that was probably done more for Trek fans than the general public! I get it now that the whole point was to be able to recreate stories without being hindered by continuity problems, something that would *only* matter to Trek fans.

Finally, as for the TNG era, you're right of course that the shows still exist — I was just hoping (obviously against all reason) that eventually they'd do another show set after the events of Voyager, say in the early 25th century. I'm sad to agree that that is a pipe dream that would never occur. Unfortunately, it seems they've exhausted the creative opportunities for stories in that era (not to mention fan fatigue).

So, I will just have to hope the next two movies will be huge hits, stay true to the Trek spirit, and create the impetus to give us a new, compelling TV series! For you veterans and Star Trek XI fans, how likely do you think that is?

Again, thank you for your consideration and for answering my questions, which evidently have been asked many times before. Thanks!
 
Vulcan being destroyed was probably one of the best things in the movie. It was very dramatic and finally set this universe apart from the other one. With how everybody managed to end up in the same places as the other universe, it was refreshing to see that some things could actually change.

Also, as for why an origin story was probably not told is because Star Trek was never really meant to have some crazy origin story. It's not Batman or Star Wars. The crew probably would have come together in a fairly ordinary way with some possibly exciting first adventure, and they probably didn't all come together at once.

So, I will just have to hope the next two movies will be huge hits, stay true to the Trek spirit, and create the impetus to give us a new, compelling TV series! For you veterans and Star Trek XI fans, how likely do you think that is?

I think at the very least the next movie will do well enough, but I think that at this point (meaning the next few years) the chances of a new series are fairly slim for a variety of reasons, most of which you could probably find out about in the Future of Trek sub-forum here. To list just a few:
-There's a whole bunch of distance now between produced TV and movies that are Star Trek since Viacom split and CBS gained Paramount's TV rights. They're not likely to work entirely in concert.
-CBS is unwilling to produce niche shows at the moment.
-The movies will probably have to be over before a show can begin. Paramount is probably a lot more concerned with oversaturation now than before. It's hard to say when the movies will end. It all depends on how successful they are. I know there are plans for three movies total, but will it really stop there?

I'm totally agreed with you that I enjoy the TV shows much more than the movies.
 
Did JJTrek have to be so drastically different than previous incarnations? No, not at all. But the powers that be wanted a younger, less mature audience (more ticket sales) and the movie fit perfectly within that group.
 
Did JJTrek have to be so drastically different than previous incarnations? No, not at all. But the powers that be wanted a younger, less mature audience (more ticket sales) and the movie fit perfectly within that group.


Sigh. Can we please retire the canard that the reboot only appeals to the young and immature?

I know there are some hardcore fans who disliked it, but many of us old-time TOS fans liked it very much. Including most of the Trek authors I know . . . .

Let's not keep perpetuating this fiction that the new movie only appeals to "immature" viewers.
 
Since the movie was aiming to bring in a new audience what they should have done was destroyed Earth instead of Vulcan. The new audience may be aware just as Spock's home but everyone would know that they game has changed if Earth were the one to go *Poof*.
 
Since the movie was aiming to bring in a new audience what they should have done was destroyed Earth instead of Vulcan. The new audience may be aware just as Spock's home but everyone would know that they game has changed if Earth were the one to go *Poof*.


There's always next film . . . :)
 
Did JJTrek have to be so drastically different than previous incarnations? No, not at all. But the powers that be wanted a younger, less mature audience (more ticket sales) and the movie fit perfectly within that group.


Sigh. Can we please retire the canard that the reboot only appeals to the young and immature?

It's that person's "go-to" comment regarding the film. From a post of their's in Februrary:

"As far as the intial question on why JJ had to mess with the ship, the fact is that he (and Paramount) wanted to change Star Trek into a show for a younger, less mature, less attentive audience than the original concept was marketed at. Thats where the $$$ is."


I know there are some hardcore fans who disliked it, but many of us old-time TOS fans liked it very much. Including most of the Trek authors I know . . . .

Let's not keep perpetuating this fiction that the new movie only appeals to "immature" viewers.
At least the falsehoods will be on them.
 
Hell yeah! Nemesis was trash, and Abrams had to get as far as he could away from it. That meant pretending like the last thirty years didn't happen.

I'm a fan of TNG, DS9 and I loved the movie by the way.
 
Count me as one who didn't like the movie all that much, but was glad its success means lots more Star Trek. Hopefully they can get it right in future films.


And I hate the argument that fans who didn't like it "wouldn't have been happy with it no matter what." That's the kind of crap that people said about those who didn't like the Star Wars prequels too. Not everyone who thinks a movie in a popular franchise is not very good is just being contrarian as a backlash to the new popularity of that franchise, or some such nonsense. I didn't go into the movie expecting not to like it. I'd read good things about it beforehand. I just felt it was a mediocre movie that fans were over-hyping because of a long drought in Star Trek, and diminished expectations for summer blockbusters.


The destruction of Vulcan was a shock value decision that I felt wasn't really necessary. Also, there was plenty of adventures to depict within a timeline more consistent with TOS.
 
I just felt it was a mediocre movie that fans were over-hyping because of a long drought in Star Trek, and diminished expectations for summer blockbusters.

If people were desperately deprived of Trek then "The Motion Picture" would be haled as a classic. It isn't. People liked it because they liked it.

Also, there was plenty of adventures to depict within a timeline more consistent with TOS.

Plenty of adventures in this timeline too!
 
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