Why did Spock assume...

[BillJ]

...that Jim Kirk was the captain of the Enterprise when he met him in a cave? He wasn't captain in the prime timeline yet.

Quoted from another thread...

Spock knew the year he came from, knew the amount of years he went back in time and yet didn't realize he (Spock) was still a Lieutenant serving on the Enterprise under Chris Pike during the late 2250's?

And Spock Prime in the new film didn't seem mentally feeble as he was able to carry the mission to destroy the Hobus star and pull the equation for 'transwarp beaming' from memory.

The more I think about it the more I become convinced that older Spock was not from the Prime Universe.

Just my two cents.

 

[F. King Daniel]

This again?

It's Leonard Nimoy. That's all I need

We don't know when Kirk Prime became captain of the Enterprise, or even captain. We know only that he was 34 during "Where No Man..." and the rest is conjecture from the old Star Trek Chronology and The Making of Star Trek, both of which have been contradicted repeatedly.

Really it was a mistake by the STXI writers. If you're gonna say it's definitive proof of an alternate universe (and defeat the point of Nimoys's cameo) you should split universes according to every similar mistake and every retcon in Star Trek: "Where No Man...", starring James R. Kirk must reside in an alternate universe to TOS with it's James T. Kirk, TOS must be seperate from TMP (Klingons are entirely different, 100% change in design of everything), TWoK (low-tech/militaristic Enterprise, Khan knew Chekov), TNG and Generations must be alternate (Scotty thinks Kirk's alive but saw him die), Enterprise must be alternate to TOS, Nemesis to TNG (Picards heart) and so on.

 

[Hythlodeus]

because spock is very old and probably he remembers some things better than others. it happens to the best of us.

 

[BillJ]

This again?

It's Leonard Nimoy. That's all I need

Honestly, it's nitpicking and how much it bothers you comes down to how much you like the material.

But I think that Star Trek 2009 was the only time I was actually disappointed in a performance by Nimoy.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Well in that other thread...

Yes, Spock Prime's confusion about Kirk being captain is a script mistake. But that's all it can be reasonably interpreted to be. The existence of mistakes or deliberate differences in interpretation doesn't make it an incompatible reality, because there are always going to be mistakes and differences, and there always have been.

But it represents a pretty jarring error in a pivotal scene in the movie.

This was a movie that needed to be as vague as possible when dealing with dates but wasn't. If it had used the original stardate system then it wouldn't represent an issue because it would have been vague enough to stand up to this type of scrutiny.

He even remembers Kirks' father living long enough to see him take command but didn't remember when it was?

The movie fell pray to simple math...

Spock mentions the how many years in the future he's from after he finds out Kirk is not the Captain.

Kirk's nearly eaten by the monster when the elder Spock shows up with a torch, scaring away the monster)
SPOCK PRIME: James T. Kirk.
KIRK: Excuse me?
SPOCK PRIME: How did you find me?
KIRK: How do you know my name?
SPOCK PRIME: I have been, and always shall be, your friend.
KIRK: Wha... oh, look... uh, I don't know you.
SPOCK PRIME: I am Spock.
KIRK: Bullshit.
(some time later, they are around a fire)
SPOCK PRIME: It is remarkably pleasing to see you again, old friend. Especially after the events of today.
KIRK: Uh, sir I appreciate what you did for me today, but, but if you were Spock you would know we're not friends at all. You hate me, you marooned me here for mutiny.
SPOCK PRIME: Mutiny?
KIRK: Yes.
SPOCK PRIME: You are not the Captain?
KIRK: No, no. Umm... you're the Captain. Pike was taken hostage.
SPOCK PRIME: By Nero.
KIRK: What do you know about him?
SPOCK PRIME: He is a particularly troubled Romulan. Please, allow me. It will be easier.
(Spock Prime attempts to mind meld with Kirk)
KIRK: Whoah, whoah. What are you doin'?
SPOCK PRIME: Our minds. One and together.
(Spock Prime melds with Kirk)
SPOCK PRIME: One hundred twenty-nine years from now, a star will explode, and threaten to destroy the galaxy.
[Space]

As for what reference point Spock used to calculate that date. hmmm? Pike being in command of the ship? Estimation of Kirk's age? Lucky guess?

and then Christopher said....

Well, from the transcript you provide, Spock didn't specify the time interval until he began the meld. So he could've been unsure of the exact date at first, but then gained the knowledge from Kirk's mind in the meld. So I stand corrected; it's not really a mistake at all.

 

[kkozoriz1]

If you want to get really nitpicky, Mirror Spock was Nimoy as well. There's lots of Nimoy Spocks out there.

 

[M'Sharak]

Well in that other thread...

<snip>
As for what reference point Spock used to calculate that date. hmmm? Pike being in command of the ship? Estimation of Kirk's age? Lucky guess?

and then Christopher said....

Well, from the transcript you provide, Spock didn't specify the time interval until he began the meld. So he could've been unsure of the exact date at first, but then gained the knowledge from Kirk's mind in the meld. So I stand corrected; it's not really a mistake at all.

This works for me. Since Spock was waylaid by Nero almost immediately upon exiting the wormhole and, presumably, kept confined or under guard from moment he stepped off the Jellyfish until the time he was dumped on Delta Vega, I don't have any problem believing that Spock may not have known precisely when he was, so to speak, until after initiating the meld with Kirk.

And as for asking whether Kirk was not, in fact, captain of the Enterprise: that Spock failed to assess, in a matter of minutes and with pinpoint accuracy, the age of an old friend whom he'd not seen alive in nearly a hundred years and not seen youthful for even longer is something I just don't see as being a flaw. It's entirely believable; Spock has been shown many times to have a very good memory, often retrieving just in the nick of time the very fact or formula which will save the day, but I'm pretty sure that at no time was it ever stated, shown or suggested that his memory was eidetic.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Doubtless it's because this is one film in an over forty year-long chain of stories that are inconsistent with one another in content and detail.

 

[Nowhere Man]

I think that Spock assumed he was captian because it's pretty clear that in the prime timeline Kirk never new Pike. It's also pretty clear that Kirk never served on the Enterprise in any lower rank than Captian, so Spock naturally asumed that he was Captian. Also, it's clear that in the prime timeline Kirk and Spock did not not know each other until they served on the Enterprise. Spock is old and even a Vulcans memory is not as good at that age. Any one of these is good enough for me. I do agree that Nimoy's preformance wasent as good as I was hoping for niether was his screne time. It was more than a cameo, but still less than I expected.

 

[Pauln6]

So Kirk's Dad must have died between him making captain and the Conscience of the King? The episode was pretty vague on who lived and died on the planet but we have to assume that even if he wasn't there with his brother (who dies in a later episode and therefore would have been a living witness if he'd been on the planet) he was there with a member of his family. So Kirk and Dad present on the planet and Dad dies after he makes captain - possibly even another victim of Lenore...

 

[Timo]

Kirk's dad could well have been alive at Tarsus VI when Kodos the Executioner lived up to his name. After all, there were 4,000 survivors, yet only nine of those qualified as eyewitnesses. George Kirk Sr. could well have been one of the 3,991 who didn't qualify.

Note that according to Leighton, "there were only eight or nine of us who actually saw Kodos", and according to the computer, there are "nine actual eyewitnesses who can identify Kodos". More importantly, those nine aren't "surviving" eyewitnesses - indeed, the computer lists seven deceased people such as Leighton among them. So being a survivor doesn't qualify for being an eyewitness or one of the exalted nine.

For all we know, in the prime timeline, James T. Kirk's father only died long after Jim himself did.

Timo Saloniemi