Why doesn't the federation have weapons platforms?

[Timo]

What makes you think that what we saw in "Emissary" did not feature overwhelming force? We had never seen more firepower directed at any single target before. Phaser and torpedo fire from what looked like half a dozen ships was raining on the Cube; previously (in terms of in-universe chronology), only a single ship would have fired on any target with both weapons, and at most two would have been pounding a target with joint phasers or with joint torpedoes. Even in the later DS9 battles, it was extremely seldom that more than two ships would fire at the same target.

Starfleet's idea of "overwhelming" just didn't meet Borg standards. But there's no way Starfleet could or should have known that.

(Now, the bit about "at most two ships firing at a target" when two battlefleets meet seems to go against the logic of gun-based naval battle a century in the past. The only logical way to proceed back then would have been to concentrate your fire on a specific enemy vessel, which is quickly sunk, then on the next, then on the next - meaning that enemy firepower is steadily being eroded and the task becomes easier as time passes. Dividing the fire would make the sinking a slower business and would not help exploit any imbalance initially created.

However, that only applies when all your ships have all the enemy ships in firing range. This is massively complicated in the sort of close range, high speed 3D furballs we saw in DS9. In such circumstances, pre-gunpowder infantry charge rules are likely to apply, and "every ship for herself" may well be the most advantageous opening tactic.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Timo

"What makes you think that what we saw in "Emissary" did not feature overwhelming force? "

The fact that from a fleet of 40 ships, only 2-3 were firing at the borg cube.
And the fact that these ships were firing their standard phasers, when we know (enterprise showed us in 'best of both worlds') that a starfleet ship is capable of firing a much more powerful discharge.

As for how can you have all ships be in firing range of the same target? That's what ship formations are for - a concept starfleet seems unfamiliar with.

About how much is 'overwhelming' - starfleet knew hat the first shots from a weapon got through the borg shields and the following not; it also knew the borg are formidable opponents.
Starfleet should have endeavored to deliver the strongest force posible with the first shots, not speculate (based on not much) what's the borg treshold and base its attack on this unsubstantiated specuation.

At wolf 258 and at sector 01, starfleet displayed shocking strategic incompetence - and, due to that, the Federation nearly fell, on both occasions.
Starfleet's strategists/tacticians proved laughably inept at their job, to the point of being ridiculous. The magnitude of their - starfleet's - failure is astounding.


A half of the fleet at wolf 358 or sector 01 shoud have attacked the cube with deflector discharges set on different types of particles/energies and modulations, carving the cube up.

The rest of the starfleet ships should have used all weapons in their arsenal in order to finish the job (just in case the first wave of ships' deflector discharges fried the ships systems).
Of course, if the first wave of ships somehow failed to severly damage the borg cube, the rest of the ships should have tried again the same 'deliver as strong a punch from the get-go' strategy with different deflector discharges, that being the best chance starfleet had against the borg.

 

[Wingsley]

I don't think that Starfleet would need to perfect some entirely new weapon in order to destroy an invading Borg ship or ships.

Here's how they could use existing technologies, with some alterations, to provide a potent anti-Borg strategy: Build two limited-production classes of space vessels to be used in a rapid deployment force in the event of an imminent Borg threat: carriers and fighters.

The "carriers" would not be starships (or aircraft carriers) in the sense we have seen them in the past. These would be high-speed, single-use combat starships designed to carry short-range mobile weapons platforms derived from the Dominion-Cardassian platforms, only these "fighters" would be a more mobile like Sisko's Defiant. The "carriers" haul the "fighters" to wherever the Borg are, drop them off, and let the "fighters" confront, pursue (if necessary), and surround the Borg, overwhelming it with firepower. The trick is for Starfleet to accurately gauge what the necessary size and armament of such a Rapid Deployment Force would have to be in order to effectively overwhelm a Borg force they would encounter.

 

[Timo]

"What makes you think that what we saw in "Emissary" did not feature overwhelming force? "

The fact that from a fleet of 40 ships, only 2-3 were firing at the borg cube.
And the fact that these ships were firing their standard phasers, when we know (enterprise showed us in 'best of both worlds') that a starfleet ship is capable of firing a much more powerful discharge.

But we (and Starfleet) already saw that the deflector weapon was no good. There'd be absolutely no reason to attempt to use it again when standard phasers were so much better.

And "just two or three ships firing" is, as I said, an unprecedented, galaxy-rattling use of power. One-third of that power was enough to destroy what was claimed to be one-third of a Borg Cube in "Q Who?". So it would certainly meet Starfleet's definition of "overwhelming" - it just happens that Starfleet's definition was outdated. But to expect Starfleet to correctly predict what was needed to destroy the Cube would be asinine: only somebody who had read the script would have that sort of knowledge.

As for how can you have all ships be in firing range of the same target? That's what ship formations are for - a concept starfleet seems unfamiliar with.

Doesn't fit the DS9 model of battlefleets. If Starfleet tried to line its ships up for WWI style battering of the enemy, the enemy would simply engage in a melee just like it was shown doing, and Starfleet would be in a definite disadvantage. Fighting styles are entirely dependent on the weapons available, and Star Trek starships seem to have weapons comparable to swords (phasers) and arrows (photon torpedoes) while wearing armor that deflects most arrows. It's no wonder that a medieval melee would be the vastly preferable mode of fighting.

Using a formation for synchronized firing at the single Borg Cube... Now that's a wholly different question. Starfleet's angle there wouldn't be the ability to fire at the Cube (since that would be trivially easy from each and every vantage point in the emptiness of space), but the ability to dodge the Borg response. The Cube didn't move, but the starships had to, if they wanted to survive long enough to keep on firing.

A half of the fleet at wolf 358 or sector 01 shoud have attacked the cube with deflector discharges set on different types of particles/energies and modulations, carving the cube up.

Why on Earth should they attempt to use a weapon that had been demonstrated to be useless? They hadn't read the script - but even if they had, they wouldn't "know" that such a trick would work, because it's entirely fan speculation that Picard's treason would only make the Cube immune against a single set of frequencies and not all of them.

The rest of the starfleet ships should have used all weapons in their arsenal in order to finish the job

Which they did. Phasers and photon torpedoes are all the weapons in Starfleet's arsenal.

Any other suggestions? That is, suggestions that Starfleet didn't already put to (futile) use on screen?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Saturn0660]

Course, what we've never seen is just what a Starbase can do. I have no doubt that it's full of weapons. But I want to see what it can do when being attacked.

Other then DS9 of course

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Timo

"What makes you think that what we saw in "Emissary" did not feature overwhelming force? "

The fact that from a fleet of 40 ships, only 2-3 were firing at the borg cube.

That's an FX issue more than anything else. ILM just didn't have the budget or the skills to put that many ships on screen at once. More to the point, the scene was shot from the Saratoga's point of view; for all we know the cube was being hit from all sides by no less than ten starships at a time and we only ever saw action from a single direction.

And the fact that these ships were firing their standard phasers, when we know (enterprise showed us in 'best of both worlds') that a starfleet ship is capable of firing a much more powerful discharge.

Enterprise was, yes. Some of the ships at Wolf-359 were fifty years old when they went into that battle, and none of them had Commander Shelby on board.

As for how can you have all ships be in firing range of the same target? That's what ship formations are for - a concept starfleet seems unfamiliar with.

What in the history of Star Trek leads you to believe that formation flying has EVER been useful in space combat? Hell, it's not even all that useful in AIR combat anymore.

About how much is 'overwhelming' - starfleet knew hat the first shots from a weapon got through the borg shields and the following not

Did Starfleet know that? They seemed to be under the distinct impression that ALL of their weapons would go through all the time. There was, if you remember, a feirce debate going on in the fleet as to how to deal with the Borg; Enterprise had faced them before and had firsthand experience with them, Shelby was a genius who had red all of their reports. The only other officer who knew anything about the Borg was Admiral Hansen, and he probably had his own ideas about the subject.

For everyone else, it was just "uber powerful alien of the weak" attacking their homeworld. It probably occured to a few of them at the last minute, "Hey, if the Borg assimilated Picard, doesn't that mean they know all of our tactics, all our maneuvers, all our weaknesses and every new weapon modification we've ever considered?" but it was too late by then to do anything about it.

A half of the fleet at wolf 358 or sector 01 shoud have attacked the cube with deflector discharges set on different types of particles/energies and modulations, carving the cube up.

If you recall, the only reason the deflector was supposed to have worked in the first place is because the Enterprise accidentally stumbled upon a fleeting weakness in the Borg's power grid; it took them more than an hour to figure out exactly what that weakness was and how to exploit it. With Locutus in the Borg command center, that hour is alot more than the fleet has to find a new one.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

newtype alpha, Timo

About the deflector discharge:
In 'best of both worlds 1', Enterprise found a phaser modulation that would have burned out the cube's power grid - and this is why they thought one powerful discharge of this phaser modulation would be enough to destroy the cube.

Of course, as we were shown in practically every episode that dealt with the borg, ANY PHASER MODULATION, any type of weapon goes through the borg shields on the first shot. It may not burn out the borg power grid, but it does damage the cube.

Starfleet proved itsself to be incompetent by using standard phasers, barely scratching the cube before it adapts to the modulations.
At wolf 358 and sector 01, as I already EXPLAINED IN DETAIL ABOVE, starfleet ships' first shot should have consisted of the most powerful discharge they are capable of producing - a deflector phaser/other type of energy discharge - thereby ensuring that the phaser modulations they are using make big holes in the borg cube before the borg shields adapt.
20+ ships firing such discharges could have carved the cube up - even if the phaser modulations they are using cannot fry the cube's power grid.

Also - from 'q, who', starfleet knew how the borg are vulnerable to the first shots of every weapon used against them and how they adapt after the first shots to these weapons.

Abot ships formations:
What use would they have in the trekverse?
What about ensuring that a large number of the 40 ships at wolf 358 are in weapons range and can actually concentrate their fire on the borg cube, instead of only 2-3 ships engaging the cube at any one time and being, predictably, snuffed out?

Of course, formation flying has been presented on a number of occasions on-screen - Voy'Basics 1', DS9'way of the warrior', etc.
Starfleet was just too strategically/tactically incompetent at wolf 358 to remember that such a thing existed.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

newtype alpha, Timo

About the deflector discharge:
In 'best of both worlds 1', Enterprise found a phaser modulation that would have burned out the cube's power grid - and this is why they thought one powerful discharge of this phaser modulation would be enough to destroy the cube.

But it wasn't, and you seem to have forgotten why: it took them a considerable amount of time to figure out exactly which modulation had that effect, and the Borg immediately closed that weakness once they had assimilated Picard.

Of course, as we were shown in practically every episode that dealt with the borg, ANY PHASER MODULATION, any type of weapon goes through the borg shields on the first shot.

This is very clearly not the case for the Borg ship, which was evidently able to block those phaser blasts and photon torpedoes in the opening volley without taking any damage at all.

Furthermore, it's worth pointing out that the entire modulation issue was (once again) just an overcomplication of the original premise: originally, the way the Borg adapted to phaser weapons was to simply send another drone EQUIPPED WITH SHIELDS. Arguably this is exactly what the did in Best of Both Worlds, and that Starfleet's efforts to remodulate their phasers were really just wishful thinking; whether they modulated them or not, the first five or six drones who always respond to intruders are the low-level maintenance types with no defenses to speak of. The heavier ones with body shields take a couple minutes to lurch out of their alcoves and start attacking.

Starfleet proved itsself to be incompetent by using standard phasers, barely scratching the cube before it adapts to the modulations.

There is no evidence that Starfleet's phasers did any damage at all even in the first shots. Enterprise' phasers certainly didn't; the only thing that would have was the deflector blast: Enterprise was the only ship that knew about that weakness and the only one prepared to exploit it, and it STILL failed.

At wolf 358 and sector 01, as I already EXPLAINED IN DETAIL ABOVE, starfleet ships' first shot should have consisted of the most powerful discharge they are capable of producing - a deflector phaser/other type of energy discharge - thereby ensuring that the phaser modulations they are using make big holes in the borg cube before the borg shields adapt.

Again, assuming the Borg shields had not already adapted. As I already explained in detail, the only reason the deflector blast would have made any difference at all is because the Enterprise figured out a singular weakness in the Borg's defenses. The rest of Starfleet had no opportunity to look for similar weaknesses; the one Enterprise had discovered had already failed.

Really, you're confusing incompetence with simple unpreparedness. If the Borg HADN'T been blocking Starfleet's weapons, the fleet at Wolf-359 would have simply blown it to smithereens. If the Borg WERE blocking those weapons, then it doesn't matter what kinds of other weapons they were using, THEY would have been blocked just as easily. The case is only slightly different in First Contact, where the fleet had apparently heavily damaged the cube in a running battle all the way back to Earth and Picard's intervention put the death blow to an already weakened enemy. In this case, the most you can say is that they should have stocked extra quantum torpedoes.

But in either case, it was superior intelligence and guile, NOT superior firepower, that vanquished the Borg. It actually doesn't seem possible to outgun the Borg, and you're probably better off not bothering to try. If you're sneaky enough and patient enough you can find their achilles heel... but you have to be quick about it, because meanwhile the Borg are looking for yours.

Also - from 'q, who', starfleet knew how the borg are vulnerable to the first shots of every weapon used against them and how they adapt after the first shots to these weapons.

But they were wrong. If the Q-Who scenario really played out, Enterprise should have destroyed that cube in the first encounter. What Starfleet--and you, it seems--didn't count on is that this Borg ship (which may or may not be the same one from J25) had ALREADY adapted to all of their weapons and was now impervious to their attacks. The deflector blast was the ONLY weapon that would even affect them, and that particular weakness was discovered entirely by accident before the Borg covered it up.

What use would they have in the trekverse?
What about ensuring that a large number of the 40 ships at wolf 358 are in weapons range and can actually concentrate their fire on the borg cube, instead of only 2-3 ships engaging the cube at any one time and being, predictably, snuffed out?

You're confusing "formation" with "coordination." Modern soldiers don't form skirmish lines anymore either, but rifle companies can and do coordinate their movements to be maximally effective on the battlefield. If you don't know their battle plan you might think the soldiers are just randomly running around and firing at each other and then complain "Why haven't they formed a firing line yet? Why haven't the cannons be moved to the front? What are they, incompetent?"

Of course, formation flying has been presented on a number of occasions on-screen - Voy'Basics 1', DS9'way of the warrior', etc.

Exactly. All moving formations coordinated to attack in groups with scripted evasive maneuvers and responsibilities. Sorta like the Finger-Four pattern in modern warfare: squadron breaks up into groups of four, two leads and two wingmen, and the wingman always follows the lead and the second element lead tries to keep track of the flight lead.

You might well think of the fleet at Wolf-359 coordinated similarly; it's fairly likely that Saratoga was Melbourne's "wingman" and the very rapid loss of the former left Saratoga in a bind. The Bellerophon and the other Melbourne would also have made a second element; they appear to have swung about to attack the cube on the same side as the Saratoga, apparently realizing that the Borg can only attack so many targets at a time and they would have a few open shots while the Borg were tearing up the Saratoga (Shelby had the same thought on Enterprise, remember? Give them more than one target to worry about).

If not for the fact that their phaser beams were bouncing off the cube like airsoft pellets, they might have succeeded in crippling if not completely destroying it. As it stands, they seem to have done SOME damage, but nowhere near as much as they expected.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

newtype_alpha

You don't seem to understand:

"Of course, as we were shown in practically every episode that dealt with the borg, ANY PHASER MODULATION, any type of weapon goes through the borg shields on the first shot."

Proof?
'q, who' - the phasers' first shots worked, then the cube adapted.
'best of both worlds 2' - different modulations of the phaser worked in the first shots - AFTER the borg adapted to the power-systems frying modulation.
The cube may have adapted to the modulation that would fry its power systems (this power system frying feature is why the modulation was relatively difficult to find), NOT against other modulations (and these were, as seen on-screen, relatively easy to find).

'first contact' - different modulations of the phaser worked initially.

Every borg episode in voyager features the same VERY OBVIOUS VULNERABILITY of the borg. Not obvious enough for the incompetents in starfleet to figure it out.


And - you may call them 'formation' or 'coordination'; it doesn't really matter:
At wolf 358, starfleet PROVED it's completely incompetent in using them.
From 40 ships, the first wave of attack was composed of 3 ships firing randomly at the borg cube - an enemy who is KNOWN to be most vulnerable to the first shots fired? The rest 37 ships just flying around?
Instead of having 20+ ships firing at once, using deflectors in order to maximise the discharge power of the first shots (which could have been discharges of phasers or a wide variety of different energies - aka hard to adapt to by the borg).
Starfleet is a joke.

 

[neozeks]

From 40 ships, the first wave of attack was composed of 3 ships firing randomly at the borg cube - an enemy who is KNOWN to be most vulnerable to the first shots fired? The rest 37 ships just flying around?
Instead of having 20+ ships firing at once, using deflectors in order to maximise the discharge power of the first shots (which could have been discharges of phasers or a wide variety of different energies - aka hard to adapt to by the borg).
Starfleet is a joke.

Like has already been said upthread, you do realize this is simply a FX issue? It wasn't possible to portray so many ships at the time.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

From 40 ships, the first wave of attack was composed of 3 ships firing randomly at the borg cube - an enemy who is KNOWN to be most vulnerable to the first shots fired? The rest 37 ships just flying around?
Instead of having 20+ ships firing at once, using deflectors in order to maximise the discharge power of the first shots (which could have been discharges of phasers or a wide variety of different energies - aka hard to adapt to by the borg).
Starfleet is a joke.

Like has already been said upthread, you do realize this is simply a FX issue? It wasn't possible to portray so many ships at the time.

Actually, it's only partly FX induced stupidity; the rest is plot induced stupidity.

None of which changes the fact that starfleet has been depicted as being crassly incompetent.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

newtype_alpha

You don't seem to understand:

"Of course, as we were shown in practically every episode that dealt with the borg, ANY PHASER MODULATION, any type of weapon goes through the borg shields on the first shot."

Proof?
'q, who' - the phasers' first shots worked, then the cube adapted.

I think you need to watch that episode again. First of all, the phasers DIDN'T work on the first shot; the second, third and fourth shots at maximum power carved bigass divots out of the hull after Worf dialed them up to maximum power. The same is true of the Borg drones: Worf's very first phaser blast bounced right off the first drone in engineering until it set it to maximum; the Borg responded by sending a stronger drone.

Enterpirse doesn't use phasers against the cube again until it follows them all the way back to Federation space, at which time even maximum phasers are not at all effective. Furthermore, photon torpedoes were ineffective from the very first shot. The Borg didn't adapt to it, they just shrugged it off.

'best of both worlds 2' - different modulations of the phaser worked in the first shots - AFTER the borg adapted to the power-systems frying modulation.

I believe you are referring to the funkiness related to that antimatter spread effect; as best we can tell, the phaser barrage in that instance was little more than a pyrotechnics display designed to keep the Borg from noticing Data's shuttle and never did any actual damage.

Really, the one and only time phasers appear to do any damage at all is Shelby's "random settings, keep them changing, don't give them time to adapt" pattern in Part One.

'first contact' - different modulations of the phaser worked initially.

Actually, they seem to work FOREVER against the cube. The in-universe reason is never explained, but the real reason is "explosions are cooler than shields."

And - you may call them 'formation' or 'coordination'; it doesn't really matter:
At wolf 358, starfleet PROVED it's completely incompetent in using them.

Why? Because they lost? I'm forced to quote a certain Starfleet Captain's sound advise: "Sometimes, it's possible to make no mistakes and still loose."

From 40 ships, the first wave of attack was composed of 3 ships firing randomly at the borg cube

It's like a broken record in here, isn't it? Again, the entire scene was shot from Saratoga's point of view, and this at a time when ILM struggled to put more than four ships on screen at any given time. We don't really know WHAT the battle looked like, all we know for sure is what happened to Saratoga.

Actually, we don't even know that this occurred at the beginning of the battle. For all we know this was a last ditch effort by the six surviving ships in the fleet having fallen back and regrouped once the rest of the fleet was destroyed. Either way, the scene isn't comprehensive enough to tell us anything meaningful about Starfleet's battle tactics, nor is it INTENDED to tell us anything of the sort.

an enemy who is KNOWN to be most vulnerable to the first shots fired?

Broken record again; did I not just finish explaining to you that
1) Starfleet KNEW next to nothing about the Borg, all they had were theories, and everyone who had the most accurate theories were ALL ON BOARD THE ENTERPRISE.

2) The Borg ship was not vulnerable to phasers OR torpedoes in the first shots; that they were even vulnerable at J25 is probably Enterprise' dumb luck, and by the time the ship arrived in Federation space, none of their weapons could have damaged it.

Instead of having 20+ ships firing at once, using deflectors in order to maximise the discharge power of the first shots (which could have been discharges of phasers or a wide variety of different energies - aka hard to adapt to by the borg).

That type of tactic would have required fleetwide coordination and foresight; that would have required Picard knowing about the plan as well, which--in turn--would have resulted in the Borg knowing about this plan as well.

Which means that even IF Starfleet had gotten every ship in the fleet to copy Enterprise's last-ditch effort deflector blast, the Borg still would rolled right over them.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

newtype_alpha

In 'best of both worlds'
We saw how enterprise got past the borg shields by alternating phaser modulations.
Then we saw how Worf used hand phasers on rotating modulation (modulations different from the previous one the borg already adapted to; these did not fry the borg power system, just went through its shields) against drones and got through their defenses.
In 'first contact'
We saw how everyone fought the borg drones.
The large ship to ship battles in these encounters - all one can say about them is that starfleet fought them incompetently; in 'first contact', starfleet actually used rotating modulations and the battle went much better that wolf 358.

About Voyager - I am referring to every encounter they had with borg - ship to ship battle, drone engagement, etc, etc. You need examples? You can find at least a dozen clear ones.

newtype_alpha:
"Of course, as we were shown in practically every episode that dealt with the borg, ANY PHASER MODULATION, any type of weapon goes through the borg shields on the first shot."
Deal with it.

About wolf 358
Starfleet knew about everything that transpired in 'q, who' and previously on enterprise in 'best of both worlds'.

"Actually, we don't even know that this occurred at the beginning of the battle."
But we do. 'Emissary' went to quite some trouble to establish this - the prefight negociations with Locutus, the fleet starting its attack, etc.

"That type of tactic would have required fleetwide coordination and foresight; that would have required Picard knowing about the plan as well"
It doesn't even matter if Picard knew about such a plan. Another one following the same sane - as in not shockingly incompetent - principles could be devised.
Such a plan includes a massive starfleet attack from the start, using deflector discharges the borg - and Picard - don't know about.
Or starfleet cannot devise a plan that required "coordination and foresight" without Picard helping them? That sounds about right. Starfleet's incompetence in action!


PS - You know, newtype_alpha - it's becoming clear that talking to you is a waste of my time. Your only care about supporting your point, no matter how ridiculous it becomes:
I just recalled you refusing, on this very forum, the notion that inside a hollow sphere there is no gravitational attractive force because ~"it doesn't feel right to you" despite everyone else telling you how Newton mathematically proved this to be correct.
And you ridiculously went with that until everyone got bored with trying to explain the facts to you and left you alone.
I think I'll follow their example.

 

[BolianAuthor]

This may have been mentioned already, but remember also that Weyoun did say that Federation shields had always proven useless against Dominion weapons. If the Cardassian platforms were built with parts of Dominion tech, it's likely that the Founders just wanted to have a way to mass-deploy vast quantities of weapons at the Federation and allied ships that would for lack of a better term, be like shooting fish in a barrel to them. Most threat races we know of don't engage enemies on the Dominion's scale.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

newtype_alpha:
"Of course, as we were shown in practically every episode that dealt with the borg, ANY PHASER MODULATION, any type of weapon goes through the borg shields on the first shot."

No it doesn't, dude. The very first time in Trek History phasers are used against a Borg--both a drone OR a ship--they do no damage at all.

Here, from the actual fucking episode:

WORF: Shields have failed.
PICARD: Fire all weapons.
[Enterprise fires spreads of phasers and torpedoes, which splash against the cube's surface]

[Engineering]
LAFORGE: Their subspace field is intact. New phaser frequencies had no impact.

[Bridge]
RIKER: Reverse engines.
LAFORGE [OC]: Full reverse.

[Engineering]
LAFORGE: We're not moving.

[Bridge]
PICARD: Fire at will.
WORF: Launching torpedoes. Phaser spread continuing.
DATA: Still no damage to the Borg vessel, sir.

I'm wondering at this point exactly what part of "No damage" isn't clear to you in this scene? Note again that these are Enterprises VERY FIRST SHOTS at the Borg.

Starfleet knew about everything that transpired in 'q, who' and previously on enterprise in 'best of both worlds'.

Starfleet Command certainly did. Did every commander in the fleet review those logs as thoroughly or as insightfully as Commander Shelby did? Or was that not SPECIFICALLY mentioned by Admiral Hansen as Shelby's main strong suit, the one officer in the entire fleet who "gets" the Borg? (Hell, even Hansen doesn't seem to get it since he categorically rejects the idea that Picard would ever assist the Borg, even unwillingly).

"Actually, we don't even know that this occurred at the beginning of the battle."
But we do. 'Emissary' went to quite some trouble to establish this - the prefight negociations with Locutus

Actually it's little more than an ultimatum from Locutus, hardly a negotiation. Also worth remembering is that Locutus provided the exact same ultimatum to the Enterprise when Riker joined the battle several hours later. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that Saratoga's destruction took place several minutes to an hour after Hansen's "We're attempting to withdrawal and regroup..."

It doesn't even matter if Picard knew about such a plan. Another one following the same sane - as in not shockingly incompetent - principles could be devised.

Why would they, when Admiral Hanson is solidly convinced that Picard would never even unwillingly cooperate with the Borg?

Besides, so far all you've done is keep dragging up the same tired and thoroughly debunked assumptions and then scream "incompetence!" when in fact you've provided us no reason to believe Starfleet didn't have a working battle plan at Wolf 359. As a matter of fact, their entire plan seemed to be pretty much identical to Enterprise's original battle plan: rotate shield and phaser modulations and hit them with everything they've got. I do believe I above demonstrated--beyond any reasonable debate--that that particular plan was never viable to begin with.

Such a plan includes a massive starfleet attack from the start, using deflector discharges the borg - and Picard - don't know about.

But Picard DOES know about the deflector discharges... because GEORDI was the one who came up with the idea! And rather strangely you've totally forgotten WHY Geordi came up with the idea: because the Enterprise had identified a specific frequency that would effect the Borg, and the only way to channel that much energy at a controlled frequency was to reconfigure the main deflector as a giant laser beam. If that frequency is no longer effect, the deflector blast is useless: not only does it NOT damage the Borg, it also disables your entire ship for several hours.

Forty starships firing deflector beams? Assuming even two thirds of them manage to get off a shot before they're obliterated, THE DEFLECTOR BEAMS DO NOT WORK. Not only are the Borg NOT destroyed, you've just provided them with forty totally defenseless totally immobilized targets for them to deal with as they please. You'll be lucky if they just destroy them all.

Or starfleet cannot devise a plan that required "coordination and foresight" without Picard helping them?

Who said anything about helping? Any working battle plan they might have developed, Picard would already have been briefed on it. If they try to come up with something AFTER he's assimilated, they're pretty much just winging it.

The thing is, what Starfleet didn't know (what, apparently, nobody but Guinan even realized) was that the only way to beat the Borg at that point was to do something totally insane and unpredictable, like board the cube in the middle of a battle and kidnap locutus right off his own command center. Even Picard described that as "brilliantly unorthodox." Starfleet has alot of good captains, but not half of them are as brilliant as Will Riker.

PS - You know, newtype_alpha - it's becoming clear that talking to you is a waste of my time.

It always is when facts stop becoming important to you.

 

[Tigger]

Admiral Hansen refused to believe that Picard had "turned traitor", so his command decisions to the Fleet at Wolf 359 would have been colored by that. As such, it is likely the Fleet used standard Star Fleet tactics which the Collective - through Picard/Locutus - would have had access to to develop countermeasures and counter-strategies for after arriving at Wolf 359 and seeing the Fleet waiting for them.

Also, the Enterprise had to pretty much shut down everything and divert it to the deflector. Locutus would have quickly figured out what they were doing, but he wanted to gloat, so he didn't take advantage that the Enterprise had no defenses operative and could easily have been carved like a Christmas bird. It's clear based on the casualty list that he would not have given the Wolf 359 ships such...courtesy. Depending on how close those ships had to be to fire their discharges, it's possible the Cube could have destroyed them before they fired or in the early stages of firing.

That discharge also blew out the Enterprise's warp drive for a time. Did Hansen (or SFHQ) want to risk having the Fleet blow it's drives out and end up floating around in space while the Cube headed on to Earth? There were no more ships available to intercept. I could easily see the decision being made to not risk the Fleet's ability to give chase in the hope one of the ships would be able to make a "lucky shot" and kill the Cube.

For that matter, we don't know if it takes the power output of a Galaxy Class starship to actually blow a Cube's power grid. It's possible everything other than the one or two Nebula Class vessels present would have had no effect if they'd performed the exact same maneuver.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

newtype alpha
"The very first time in Trek History phasers are used against a Borg--both a drone OR a ship--they do no damage at all."
Really?
The first time phasers were used against the borg was in 'q, who' - and they worked during the first shots.
In 'best of both worlds', the second enterprise altered modulation, the phasers worked again against the cube.
And again when Worf used alternatin modulations with his hand phaser.
And again in 'first contact' when the crew used altenating modulations.
And again in 'voyager' on a rather large number of occasions.

Do you see a pattern here? Of course not. All you care about is supporting your ideeas, no matter how ridiculous they become.

"But Picard DOES know about the deflector discharges... because GEORDI was the one who came up with the idea!"
So what? Picard couoldn't know about the type of energies and modulations starfleet will use as deflector discharges aka the borg could not adapt to them.

"It always is when facts stop becoming important to you."
Cute.
You were the one ridiculously refusing the mathematically proven FACT that inside a hollow sphere, there are no gravitational forces. And this because it 'didn't feel right to you'.
Look at yourself, newtype_alpha.


Tigger
"That discharge also blew out the Enterprise's warp drive for a time."

That's why I said only 20 ships should use deflector discharges - set on modulations NOT used before (the rest should, of course, provide cover).
Even if the deflector discharge knocks them out, there are 20 left to finish off the cube (which should be severely damaged).

If, somehow, the cube was not damaged in the first attack, a part of the remaining 20 ships should try to attack again with deflector discharges of different energies/modulations.
Why? Because this is the BEST chance the starfleet armada had against the borg cube. The only weapon/tactic that could be successful in destroying the borg - and this should have been crystal clear to Hansen before the battle.

The strategy Hansen used against the borg could only have one outcome - the starfleet armada snuffed out. This is what makes the admiral incompetent.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

newtype alpha
"The very first time in Trek History phasers are used against a Borg--both a drone OR a ship--they do no damage at all."
Really?
The first time phasers were used against the borg was in 'q, who' - and they worked during the first shots.

O RLY?

Here's the first shot.

No damage. In fact, the Borg appears to shoot Worf a sort of "fuck you" look and then proceeds to drill the computer even harder.

It is only with the second shot that the drone goes down, immediately after Picard orders him to "use whatever force necessary to neutralize the intruder."

As for the Borg ship? Here's the first shot. No damage at all. Not until power is set to maximum, and phasers are fired again.

Screencaps not enough for you? How about the script of the actual episode?

          STAR TREK: "Q Who?" - 3/3/89 - ACT THREE          32.

38A  CONTINUED:

					WORF
			The shields are weakening.

					DATA
			In eighteen seconds the shields
			will be down.

					PICARD
			Locate the exact source of the
			tractor beam -- lock on phasers.

					WORF
			Phasers locked on target.

					PICARD
			Fire.

39   EXT. SPACE - THE ENTERPRISE (OPTICAL)

	The pin-point phasers from the Enterprise hit into the
	Borg ship. But the force holding the Enterprise does
	not release.

40   INT. MAIN BRIDGE

	As before.

					WORF
			They still have us.

					DATA
			Shields are down.

In 'best of both worlds', the second enterprise altered modulation, the phasers worked again against the cube.

Incorrect. Read the passage I quoted in the previous post: "New phaser frequencies had no impact." THOSE ARE GEORDI'S EXACT WORDS.

The phasers did not become effective until Data began tweeking phaser settings completely randomly, which still was not effective... UNTIL the phasers momentarily fired at the one frequency the Borg were vulnerable to.

And again when Worf used alternatin modulations with his hand phaser.

Since it is explicitly stated in the episode--by DATA, no less--that the power systems of the Borg SHIP are vulnerable to those frequencies, it's incredibly unlikely that the that high narrow band channel had anything to do with the phaser's effectiveness. Again, Malcolm Reed achieved the exact same effect just by doubling their power output. Slightly more interesting is the fact that Reed and Archer managed to shoot down no less than ten different drones before any of them adapted to the phase pistols, all without making any attempt to remodulate the weapons at all.

"But Picard DOES know about the deflector discharges... because GEORDI was the one who came up with the idea!"
So what? Picard couoldn't know about the type of energies and modulations starfleet will use as deflector discharges

Yes he did, because Geordi BRIEFED him on exactly which weapon frequency the deflector would be used to exploit. Which is, if you remember, exactly why the deflector DIDN'T work.

To correct you yet again: the only reason for using the deflector in the first place was that they couldn't channel enough energy through their phasers and photon torpedoes at that specific frequency to do any real damage. If that frequency was blocked--which it was--then the deflector beam would do no damage of any kind. That leaves you hunting for another frequency the Borg might be vulnerable too, meaning it's back to phasers and torpedoes (which is precisely why Enterprise never attempted to use the deflector blast against the Borg in any subsequent encounter).

It doesn't matter if you try it it with one ship or forty ships, the deflector beam doesn't work on the Borg. "Everyone set to a random frequency and fire your deflectors!" doesn't amount to a solid battle plan, that's called "Desperation attack," especially if you don't have a backup plan for what happens if you fire at forty different frequencies and still fail to find one that does anything more than tickle Locutus' balls.

You were the one ridiculously refusing the mathematically proven FACT that inside a hollow sphere, there are no gravitational forces.

Because the gravitational forces of a hollow sphere have alot to do with Starfleet battle tactics.

fail logic is fail

 

[ProtoAvatar]

newtype alpha
"Because the gravitational forces of a hollow sphere have alot to do with Starfleet battle tactics."

They have a lot to do with your attitude - I don't think you even realise how ridiculous you are when you support some ideea which has been so obviously proven wrong (like the hollow sphere gravitation thing) just because you don't seem able to admit you were wrong.

About the rotating modulation.
In 'best of both worlds' - the borg already adapted to the power systems frying modulation when Worf got past borg shields with his hand phaser set on DIFFERENT modulations.
Also, you seem to forget about 'first contact' and 'voyager' in your posts - I guess you would rather forget cannon facts when they contradict your ideea.


And the fact that a new moduation/a new weapon ALWAYS got past borg shields on the first shots is an obvious and large vulnerability of borg tech; in 'best of both worlds' it was established that a deflector can provide a far more powerful discharge than all conventional weapons on the ship combined.

You think exploiting this weakness doesn't "amount to a solid battle plan"? You wouldn't make a good strategist/tactician, newtype_alpha. Not even a mediocre one.

 

[Myasishchev]

I was originally just going to say "Who says they don't?" But Timo beat me to it.

In all other combat (such as the unseen fight against the Breen), the forts would rip apart the invading fleets, or then be silenced by godlike superenemies such as V'Ger or the Borg before there was a chance to act.

I think you just obliquely explained why the Breen didn't manage to expunge all life on Earth (or, more likely, decided not to use their energy dampening weapon on Earth)--and incidentally why the Dominion just didn't do that to begin with. It explains, in the grand scheme, why the coup de main to the enemy capital is not the obvious, universal and first solution to pretty much any major diplomatic problem. It's really something that's been bothering me for ages, because it is so tremendously obvious.

If there were a hundred thousand killsats, on pretty much constant alert, the Breen still would've taken massive casualties just to deliver the ED* weapon in sufficient quantities to clear a window of operations against ye olde economic recovery targets. So sneakiness (with small numbers of cloaked ships, I suppose) and saving the wunderwaffe for a stand-up fleet engagement was apparently a better strategy.

*Ha ha, holy shit, that's great.

P.S.: What's all this noise about a hollow sphere?