^ Apparently you failed to realize the point I was making. The operative point was "Errand of Mercy."
Did the Cardassians get a bad wrap?
- Thread starter GalaxyClass1701
- Start date
I think you missed mine - Klingon society clearly evolved. I'm not defending the Klingons, only pointing out that one line does not outweigh the evidence shown in TNG and DS9.
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Fleet Captain
About the cardassians - their description was accurate and well-deserved.
They occupied Bajor and other worlds. There, they oppressed and comited GENOCIDE against the native species - and these acts WERE GRATUITOUS.
You don't need to commit genocide in order to exploit a world.
Actually, according to what was presented in TNG/DS9, there was no much difference (beyond hygiene or, rather, lack thereof) between TOS klingons and 24th century klingons.
For example, in TNG'the mind's eye', we see how the klingons surpress a rebellion of one of their conquered species.
Of course, this episode (and others) also implies that the klingons treat their second-class citizens (conquered species) FAR BETTER than the cardassians treated the bajorans. Which says a lot about the cardassian's tyrrany.
They occupied Bajor and other worlds. There, they oppressed and comited GENOCIDE against the native species - and these acts WERE GRATUITOUS.
You don't need to commit genocide in order to exploit a world.
Actually, according to what was presented in TNG/DS9, there was no much difference (beyond hygiene or, rather, lack thereof) between TOS klingons and 24th century klingons.
For example, in TNG'the mind's eye', we see how the klingons surpress a rebellion of one of their conquered species.
Of course, this episode (and others) also implies that the klingons treat their second-class citizens (conquered species) FAR BETTER than the cardassians treated the bajorans. Which says a lot about the cardassian's tyrrany.
The parallel and analogy between the Nazis and Cardassians seems to me to be self-evident. And please, no comments about how it's not a wholly exact one, since that's by the by.
The fact is that the Cardassians and the Third Reich did share the following traits in common:
- Militaristic
- Authoritarian government, almost to the point of being totalitarian
- Oppressive of groups they deemed inferior
And in fairness, not all Cardassians were evil. Dukat, perhaps yes. Garak? IMO, no. While he may have done bad acts in the Obsidian Order, I don't think he was fundamentally a bad person. Damar may have supported Dukat initially, but turned when he saw the Dominion for what it really was.
There was also Tekeny Ghemor, Enabran Tain and the Marritza guy from Duet who were not what I would call evil. So whilst Cardassia was an oppressive society, they were individuals with their own ends and goals.
The fact is that the Cardassians and the Third Reich did share the following traits in common:
- Militaristic
- Authoritarian government, almost to the point of being totalitarian
- Oppressive of groups they deemed inferior
And in fairness, not all Cardassians were evil. Dukat, perhaps yes. Garak? IMO, no. While he may have done bad acts in the Obsidian Order, I don't think he was fundamentally a bad person. Damar may have supported Dukat initially, but turned when he saw the Dominion for what it really was.
There was also Tekeny Ghemor, Enabran Tain and the Marritza guy from Duet who were not what I would call evil. So whilst Cardassia was an oppressive society, they were individuals with their own ends and goals.
Well the Federation doesn't interfere in the affairs of other cultures. In TNG and DS9, the Klingons may well have conquered minor worlds, and the Federation condoned it. Klingons believe there always should be an enemy, and really don't believe in total peace.
The thing with the Klingons is that they're IMO a shade of grey. They seem good since they believe in honour, but we've seen that plenty of Klingons don't always act honourably.
Well thats just what the Cardassians evolved into with the introduction of DS9, when you look at their initial appearances, the conflict with the Maquis is commentary on the fighting between Israel and the Palestinians. What we identify with Cardassians now is similar to the change between the character of TOS and TNG Klingons.
I don't think so, but the initial portrayal of Bajorans and Cardassians in TNG "Ensign Ro" drew many comparisons with Palestine/Israel.
http://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Generation-Episode-Ensign/dp/630417957X
Enabran Tain I would call evil...I sure wouldn't put him in the same sentence with Tekeny Ghemor or Aamin Marritza.
As for Garak, not necessarily evil through and through, but I think he did have a very distinct evil side. Damar was that way, but he came around and sought redemption...not sure Garak ever truly repented for his past.
Instead of the Bajoians as Palestinians, it makes more sense with the Bajorians as Israelis. The Bajorian/Israeli were a advanced and cultured people living peacefully in their homeworld/homeland, they are taken over by the powerful military forces of Cardassia/Rome. Many Bajorians/Israelis fleed their home out into the galaxy/world. However many Bajorians/Israelis stayed behind.
Years late, after a period of of terrorism and with the help of a large multi-nation organization (UFP/UN), the Bajorians/Israeli once more were in full control of their ancestral homeworld/homeland.
Where do the Palestinians come into it?
Um, displaced people, land under occupation, refugees, terrorism? That kind of thing, you know? In "Ensign Ro", Bajorans weren't once more in full control of their ancestral home. It also wasn't mentioned at all whether their culture was 'ancient' or not, as far as I remember.(And I'm talking about "Ensign Ro" here, not the overall portrayal of Bajor, which has all sort of inspirations, including Jews [holocaust-inspired story of "Duet"], India [the caste system, British colonialism...], other colonialized countries, WW2 France/other Nazi-occupied countries [the Resistance and the treatment of 'collaborators']...) I'm pretty sure there weren't any powers comparable to the Federation at the time of old Rome. And while I'm sure there were Israeli resistance leaders at the time of Rome, they aren't exactly well known and I doubt that they were an inspiration for terrorists/freedom fighters like this guy.
Of course none of the real life parallels works 100% for either Bajorans or Cardassians overall, but there are always similarities with certain situations. You have to be blind not to notice a Palestine parallel in "Ensign Ro", just as you'd have to be blind not to notice a Holocaust parallel in "Duet".
It's also pretty obvious, IMO, that this is what Lois Tilton had in mind when she wrote one of the 1990s DS9 novels, "Betrayal":
And where do the Israeli come into that?
I'm pretty sure that the territory of Israel hadn't been their homeworld for near 2000 years, and ancient Rome hasn't existed for nearly as much time. So unless Bajorans hadn't been living on Bajor for 2000 years before Picard and Ro were even born, having lived in diaspora in many other planets since, and then many Bajorans decided to go back to Bajor and form their own state there, which in the meantime had other people living there, your comparison makes no sense.
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Admittedly I was using a some allegories, let me see if I can put this more clearly.
Group one lived in their homeland.
Group two came from somewhere else (with a army) and took over the homeland
Group one who stay subjugated, some ran away.
Group three move into Group one's homeland.
later
Group one's homeland is rule by Group four now, Group one still subjugated, the runaways can't return.
later
Group four is replaced by Group five
Group five decide the runaways can return home slowly
later
Group five fight Group six
Group six kills many of the runaways
later
runaways terrorize Group five to return homeland faster
Group seven says Group one belongs in homeland
Group three (remember them?) unhappy, most runaway
Group one happy
Group one joins Group seven
Group three's friends fights Group one.
lose repeatedly
Group three terrorizes Group one
Okay that's Israel, if you know anything about history you can identify the groups.
In Star Trek, Bajor is Group one. Group three doesn't exist. Cardassia is Groups two, four and five (partly), with a touch of six. Group seven is the Federation, who played less of a role in Bajor's independance than the UN played in Israeli independence. The Bajorian's took about 3 generations to return to independence, the Israeli's took approximately 85 generation.
Depends how you look at it.
Duet to me me always seemed to paint the Cardassians as more the Japanese in China than the Nazi in Europe. Now that I think of it The Japanese in China might be the best historical parallel to DS9. The pre~WWII Japanese didn't go into China primarily for land to colonize with their people. Like Bajor, China was to be a resource colony (Indonesia too), someplace to extract wealth. They faced a lot of resistance from the populace, most of the resistance left their former "caste" behind to fight.
Instead of the Bajoians as Palestinians, it makes more sense with the Bajorians as Israelis. The Bajorian/Israeli were a advanced and cultured people living peacefully in their homeworld/homeland, they are taken over by the powerful military forces of Cardassia/Rome. Many Bajorians/Israelis fleed their home out into the galaxy/world. However many Bajorians/Israelis stayed behind.
Years late, after a period of of terrorism and with the help of a large multi-nation organization (UFP/UN), the Bajorians/Israeli once more were in full control of their ancestral homeworld/homeland.
Where do the Palestinians come into it?[/QUOTE]
Totally wrong. Bajor was occupied by Cardassia for its resources. There was no diaspora or thousand year gap.
My point was more along the lines of the Maquis. They were mostly Federation colonists minding their own business when the political border was redrawn, and suddenly they were occupied.
But the Bajorans were in the same basic boat. Minding their business, and then suddenly the Cardassians show up and they're the ones with the militarized society brimming with weapons.
And as a sidenote on your little historical flowchart, its very poorly constructed and inapplicable. I shouldn't have to say more, its rather self-evident.
Years late, after a period of of terrorism and with the help of a large multi-nation organization (UFP/UN), the Bajorians/Israeli once more were in full control of their ancestral homeworld/homeland.
Where do the Palestinians come into it?[/QUOTE]
Totally wrong. Bajor was occupied by Cardassia for its resources. There was no diaspora or thousand year gap.
My point was more along the lines of the Maquis. They were mostly Federation colonists minding their own business when the political border was redrawn, and suddenly they were occupied.
But the Bajorans were in the same basic boat. Minding their business, and then suddenly the Cardassians show up and they're the ones with the militarized society brimming with weapons.
And as a sidenote on your little historical flowchart, its very poorly constructed and inapplicable. I shouldn't have to say more, its rather self-evident.
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