ReadyAndWilling
Fleet Captain
how is Marina Sirtis not white?
Whites are from Europe.
Whites are from Europe.
Did the show have too many white actors?
- Thread starter ReadyAndWilling
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As is Walter Koenig.
I'm Portuguese and Spanish.
Which makes my ancestors European and makes me caucasian, but I'm not white.
I recall watching a Geordi episode of TNG (the one with Leah Brahms I think). My elderly Nan commented, "I don't really like shows with all these blacks." It was only then that I noticed the show predominently featured Geordi, Worf, and Guinan, plus April Grace as the transporter chief and Lanei Chapman as the helmsman. I was quite gratified that Trek had done its job since all I saw were the characters I watch every week without giving a second thought to their ethnicity.
Obviously, that cuts both ways and it is still true to say that even Trek was guilty of a degree of tokenism. There should certainly have been more ethnically diverse background characters.
Obviously, that cuts both ways and it is still true to say that even Trek was guilty of a degree of tokenism. There should certainly have been more ethnically diverse background characters.
I guess this thread has quickly proven that human races are a bullshit concept.
There's something like ethnicities/ethnic groups ("whites" isn't one), but with "races" you're entering a territory where stuff is made up randomly.
Considering how many people are pushed into the one race of "Asian" and that supposedly there are only five races, it would seem to be a funny term. It's fine as a general indicator of where your ancestors were a few thousand years ago, but people do get so caught up in it.
I feel it has an insidious quality of overriding actual cultures with ficticious "races". Whichever the term, white, black, asian, etc. There is no such thing as "white" people anyway. Even albinos are kind of pink. I've seen some really dark African descended people, but never saw a black person. This comes off nonsensical, but I wonder how much this plays into "racism". If the races are made up to begin with, maybe that is the first step down that road. First the actual cultural identity is wiped out, and then it is easier to dehumanize.
One thing I like about Uhura in TOS is that she is Swahili, not "black" or even "African".
Anyway I do agree that a more realistic sci-fi would have most of the crew being Asian, Indian, and African genetics. But I do think what matters in terms of a ST production is the idea that individual cultures are preserved, respected, even revered. As long as that idea is held, I can give a pass to the casting dynamics of a time/place....although it did seem TNG was a step behind TOS in this regard, it would also be weird to have a crew carefully contrived. I wonder what the original casting guide was like...for instance, was Geordi concieved of as a black man?
There is a long interview with him on youtube in which he talks about his experiences coming out of school, and finding racial typecasting a real wall in the industry, and with Roots, a double-edged sword.
Oh, and Marina Sirtis is a goddess. That is all.
"White" seems to expand or contract given the situation. Sometimes being of European ancestry makes you white. But at times those making the call will exclude Southern or Eastern Europeans and Jews. Even the Irish have kept out on occasion! Its all quite silly. My Italian-Mexican wife throws a few people for a loop with her blue eyes, pale skin and redhair. And her relatives in Mexico keep insisting they are Spanish!
This.
Also, I'm pretty sure I'd prefer a multi-species cast over a multi-ethnic one. Another discussion, perhaps.
"White" is a relative term...
lets see
Levar Burton: African American
Michael Dorn: African American
Marina Sirtis: Greek/British
Brent Spiner: Jewish American
that leaves
Patrick Stewart: White/British
Jonathan Frakes: White/American
Gates McFadden: White/American
As you can see most of the cast are actually of an "Ethnic Minority" (i've not included Denise Crosby, Wil Wheaton and Diana Muldaur, since they were not continuously present throughout the series)
lets see
Levar Burton: African American
Michael Dorn: African American
Marina Sirtis: Greek/British
Brent Spiner: Jewish American
that leaves
Patrick Stewart: White/British
Jonathan Frakes: White/American
Gates McFadden: White/American
As you can see most of the cast are actually of an "Ethnic Minority" (i've not included Denise Crosby, Wil Wheaton and Diana Muldaur, since they were not continuously present throughout the series)
Shouldn't that be "Anglo-Saxon/British", "Anglo-Saxon/American" (if that's what they are, correct me if I'm wrong about their background), or "Irish/American" or "Scottish/American" or whatever it is (I don't really know what each other's background is)? Spiner and Sirtis are as "white" as Stewart, Frakes and McFadden. If we're going to list ethnicity, then why not list it for everyone, instead of replacing it with a descriptive category of "white" for some people but not for others.
While terming Jews as nonwhite at least has a history (you know, Aryans); considering the Greeks as nonwhite is utterly new to me and baffling. You know Hitler liked the theory that the Spartans were descended from a Germanic tribe. Either way, we're talking white here, not Nordic, though maybe to some that means the same thing.
So, the nonwhite principal are Michael Dorn and Levar Burton... and yeah that's sort of it.
So, the nonwhite principal are Michael Dorn and Levar Burton... and yeah that's sort of it.
In relation to my earlier post, I was going by "ethnic minority" and not "colour" (as I and many others consider classing people by colour racist (i'm mixed race btw), therefore I refer to people when describing them, by their ethnic background, I have some Jewish friends and most of them have said that they would rather be referred to as Jewish-(relative nationality) than "White", so apologies if anyone took this to mean something else
The point I was getting at is that the show is filled with many actors of various ethnic minorities (going with what GR originally envisioned in the 1960's), thus going with the fact that casting calls for trek are not usually "Race Specific"
And in regards to another poster
Patrick Stewart: Caucasian/British
Jonathan Frakes: Caucasian/American
Gates McFadden: Caucasian/American
Just to round things of properly
Apologies if anyone felt I was being racist by simply listing the ethnic backgrounds of the main cast (in order to answer the OP's question "Did the show have too many white actors")
The point I was getting at is that the show is filled with many actors of various ethnic minorities (going with what GR originally envisioned in the 1960's), thus going with the fact that casting calls for trek are not usually "Race Specific"
And in regards to another poster
Patrick Stewart: Caucasian/British
Jonathan Frakes: Caucasian/American
Gates McFadden: Caucasian/American
Just to round things of properly
Apologies if anyone felt I was being racist by simply listing the ethnic backgrounds of the main cast (in order to answer the OP's question "Did the show have too many white actors")
Well yeah. I don't refer to myself as white either. But what of it, I still am.
Thing is when people talk about the ethnic minorites in TOS they usually don't include William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy, aber. Shatner's Kirk is the white male American hero at the centre of this great multicultural experience, as it were.
Which isn't to brush off the significance of them being Jewish (I remember reading some interesting comments to this effect about Spock), but I suppose the question then becomes, what do we mean by white and how does that matter? In an American context, is it limited to Anglo-Saxons and the occasional Scot for colour?
No, My personal feelings are that "White" is a redundant term and should not really be used anymore (considering the acceptance in the 21st century where people can largely marry and produce offspring with whoever they feel, thus the gene pool is mixing)
In response to "Anglo-Saxons and the occasional Scot", I guess that "White" or "Caucasian" only applies to people who have a direct ancestory, or dominant racial traits consistent with countries in Western Europe and indeed the United Kingdom and Ireland
Even giving "race" a pass in this instance (and I normally wouldn't: since, as others have pointed out, "race" is just an inaccurate and confusing term that mixes ethnicity, culture and skin tone), I must say I'm very baffled at people considering Jews and Greek "not-whites". I'm Italian: I guess we are not white either. What about the French? Spanish? Do people just mean Anglo-Saxons? What about Scottish people? And most importantly, do Hungarians qualify? It's very weird. 
As I said before, it depends on who using the term. Someone trying to stop a black person moving into their neighborhood might be very happy to enlist their Jewish and Italian neighbors to keep "non-whites" out. OTOH is he's trying keep out "the Catholics" he'd probably identify only European Protestants as "white". And Caucasian has been used to describe people from all over Europe, North Africa and South West Asia.
<mod hat on> This is all a very tricky area and potentially controversial area, with a lot of scope for posters to misunderstand (and potentially offend) each other, probably without meaning too. I'd ask that everyone remember to try to phrase the various concepts they're discussing as clearly as they can, to try to avoid these sorts of situations. Thanks guys. <mod hat off>
I don't generally pay too much attention to cast diversity issues, but I can understand why some others do. I also find it quite telling that reading many of the above posts, many feel obliged to point out our own backgrounds in an attempt to provide some sort of frame of reference to our comments. It does show how far we as a species still are from coming to terms with our differences. FWIW, I have direct ties to four countries in total, and would be considered mixed race.
There's a real problem in these discussions trying to decide what distinctions are actually important when deciding what is diversity and when there's "enough diversity"? Is it about skin pigmentation? Socio-cultural background? Ethnicity? Religious background? They're all different concepts that have commonly been used for classification purposes.
Personally, I prefer to consider individuals rather than the above groups (which explains why I tend to diminish the value of "a diverse cast") but can understand the geopolitical, sociopolitical, cultural and economic reasons for the development of these other broader classificatory concepts.
In that context, it strikes me that the only way to measure whether TNG had "enough white actors" is not with reference to its fantasy world, or even the current real world, but rather with reference to the market it was created for. TNG, like most sci-fi shows in the era it was created, was designed for a market of broadly caucasian Americans who were aware that there was a world outside the USA. As such, a broadly caucasian cast, with a small but definite number of darker faces, was precisely the mix the audience would have expected for a Star Trek show, and as such was the correct decision, and so I'd have to answer "no, the show did not have too many white actors".
But as you can tell, that's a pretty limited sort of answer.
I don't generally pay too much attention to cast diversity issues, but I can understand why some others do. I also find it quite telling that reading many of the above posts, many feel obliged to point out our own backgrounds in an attempt to provide some sort of frame of reference to our comments. It does show how far we as a species still are from coming to terms with our differences. FWIW, I have direct ties to four countries in total, and would be considered mixed race.
There's a real problem in these discussions trying to decide what distinctions are actually important when deciding what is diversity and when there's "enough diversity"? Is it about skin pigmentation? Socio-cultural background? Ethnicity? Religious background? They're all different concepts that have commonly been used for classification purposes.
Personally, I prefer to consider individuals rather than the above groups (which explains why I tend to diminish the value of "a diverse cast") but can understand the geopolitical, sociopolitical, cultural and economic reasons for the development of these other broader classificatory concepts.
In that context, it strikes me that the only way to measure whether TNG had "enough white actors" is not with reference to its fantasy world, or even the current real world, but rather with reference to the market it was created for. TNG, like most sci-fi shows in the era it was created, was designed for a market of broadly caucasian Americans who were aware that there was a world outside the USA. As such, a broadly caucasian cast, with a small but definite number of darker faces, was precisely the mix the audience would have expected for a Star Trek show, and as such was the correct decision, and so I'd have to answer "no, the show did not have too many white actors".
But as you can tell, that's a pretty limited sort of answer.
