Well, plus, what if she turns out to be a member of TrekBBS? This sort of thing has gone badly recently.
What are you referring to?
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=123681&page=2
Spock & Uhura romance
- Thread starter jtkirk
- Start date
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=123681&page=2
Well, plus, what if she turns out to be a member of TrekBBS? This sort of thing has gone badly recently.
What are you referring to?
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=123681&page=2
You must have known this would pique my curiosity. What was removed? If it’s impossible to describe the offensive post without the description itself being inappropriate for the forum, feel free to PM me.
So was the sun of Exo III.
Well, plus, what if she turns out to be a member of TrekBBS? This sort of thing has gone badly recently.
What are you referring to?
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=123681&page=2
That's the best thread I've seen here yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSxLqDt2QVA
Watch the clip again. I see the most flirting going on between Uhura and Rand!! Look at them - they look at each other, exchange flirtatious glances, and smile - then Uhura even winks!! You can't tell me that there's no chemistry there or that nothing is going on between them!! Uhura/Rand is quite obvious and supported by TOS cannon.
But that was in the 60's and girls weren't allowed to have relationships - all that racism.. err.. sexism.. err... homophobia.. err... whatever...
Come to think of it - in "What Little Girls are Made of" Uhura hugs Chapel!! Lets see we have Uhura/Kirk, Uhura/Spock, Uhura/Rand, Uhura/Scotty, Uhura/Chapel, Uhura/MirrorSulu. Any takers for Uhura/McCoy?
I DO agree that TOS could be romantic in some episodes. But the romance was confined to a single episode and usually served to advance the plot in some fashion - not romantic sagas. The closest was Spock/Chapel and wasn't really a romantic saga.
Nah - just TOO MUCH to respond to. My ADHD won't let me sit still for that long.
Obviously some of us liked Spock like he was in TOS - unemotional and logical with a hidden twist and character flaw. Saying Spock along with the words like "flirting", "breaking-up with", "dating", "sleeping with" etc. are incompatible with the Spock who says:
SPOCK: Jim. I've spent a whole lifetime learning to hide my feelings. (The Naked Time)
Weeell... Spock definitely flirted with Droxine (an awful episode and I couldn't believe that relationship, but still canon) and the Romulan commander, slept with Zarabeth, and "broke up with" Leila and T'Pring (or rather, she broke up with him).
I don't see anyone disputing that.
If he had spent all his life learning to hide his feelings, it implies that he had to work really hard to hide them and that his emotional control was far from perfect... and than an earlier age his control was much weaker than it was when we saw him in TOS.
Incidentally, according to Nimoy's book I Am Spock, this comes from an unofficial memo he got from Roddenberry in 1966:
"Spock's "hypnotic" looks strongly affects Earth females and he goes to great pains too avoid too much contact with them. There is a back story on this-many years ago when Mr. Spock first joined the service, he was careless on this score, perhaps even enjoyed this strange ability over Earth women. But it quickly created both personal and professional troubles."
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People tease and flirt with coworkers and acquaintances all the time and don't really mean anything by it because we feel safe that are behaviour isn't really taken seriously.
I think TOS Spock understood human behaviour well enough that he could tell when someone was teasing or serious. That doesn't mean he would act on it. Also many men and women can be powerfully attractive to the opposite (or like) sex and never really seriously notice that someone is into them. It can go right over their head and it could never occur to them that someone is interested in them.
I think Spock was well aware of Chapel's interest in him, but he just didn't reciprocate her feelings. Essentially Spock could well have been turned off by something in her, perhaps neediness. That could also be why he never responded to Leila Kalomi's overtures either when they first met years before "The Side Of Paradise."
What attracts one person to another isn't always easily identified. The ambitious bitch of nuTrek would never interest TOS Spock. TOS Uhura might under different circumstances because TOS Uhura is smart and self-assured and not pushy or needy. Needy or too emotional women turn TOS Spock off. Smart and self-assured women attract Spock (like the Romulan Commander of "The Enterprise Incident") and perhaps Droxine of "The Cloud Minders." Don't bother citing Zarabeth from "All Our Yesterdays" because there Spock wasn't his normal self.
But the TOS characters were professionals and I highly doubt Spock or Uhura would risk bringing personal entanglements and issues onto the bridge.
Even Kirk's behaviour is largely misrepresnted or misconstrued. Kirk was a charmer and a flirt, but his liaisons were largely with women offship and not part of his crew. He was well aware of Janice Rand's feelings for him and he partly reciprocated, but he never seriously acted on his feelings. And Kirk is also attracted to smart and self-assured women. He's also wary of needy and too emotional women as best evidenced by him walking away from Janice Lester. I suspect that Lester only got her hooks into him initially at a time when he might have been emotionally vulnerable, perhaps around the time soon after the Farragut incident or something like that.
The Starfleet of TOS might not preclude romantic relationships, but I think there would still be rules in place: don't bring your shit to work. And if you're not sure then don't go there. Seems to be Kirk and Spock's motto in regards to their coworkers and subordinates.
I recall a TOS novel from many years ago (I can't recall the title) that had Kirk and Carolyn Palamas involved after the events of "Who Mourns For Adonais?" I thought it was pure bullshit. I highly doubt TOS Kirk would have gotten that involved with a member of his crew and particularly one whom one of his senior officers (Scotty) had already been involved with. That's just bad fanfic writing. In such a scenario Scotty's view of Kirk could mirror Doohan's opinion of Shatner.
I think TOS Spock understood human behaviour well enough that he could tell when someone was teasing or serious. That doesn't mean he would act on it. Also many men and women can be powerfully attractive to the opposite (or like) sex and never really seriously notice that someone is into them. It can go right over their head and it could never occur to them that someone is interested in them.
I think Spock was well aware of Chapel's interest in him, but he just didn't reciprocate her feelings. Essentially Spock could well have been turned off by something in her, perhaps neediness. That could also be why he never responded to Leila Kalomi's overtures either when they first met years before "The Side Of Paradise."
What attracts one person to another isn't always easily identified. The ambitious bitch of nuTrek would never interest TOS Spock. TOS Uhura might under different circumstances because TOS Uhura is smart and self-assured and not pushy or needy. Needy or too emotional women turn TOS Spock off. Smart and self-assured women attract Spock (like the Romulan Commander of "The Enterprise Incident") and perhaps Droxine of "The Cloud Minders." Don't bother citing Zarabeth from "All Our Yesterdays" because there Spock wasn't his normal self.
But the TOS characters were professionals and I highly doubt Spock or Uhura would risk bringing personal entanglements and issues onto the bridge.
Even Kirk's behaviour is largely misrepresnted or misconstrued. Kirk was a charmer and a flirt, but his liaisons were largely with women offship and not part of his crew. He was well aware of Janice Rand's feelings for him and he partly reciprocated, but he never seriously acted on his feelings. And Kirk is also attracted to smart and self-assured women. He's also wary of needy and too emotional women as best evidenced by him walking away from Janice Lester. I suspect that Lester only got her hooks into him initially at a time when he might have been emotionally vulnerable, perhaps around the time soon after the Farragut incident or something like that.
The Starfleet of TOS might not preclude romantic relationships, but I think there would still be rules in place: don't bring your shit to work. And if you're not sure then don't go there. Seems to be Kirk and Spock's motto in regards to their coworkers and subordinates.
I recall a TOS novel from many years ago (I can't recall the title) that had Kirk and Carolyn Palamas involved after the events of "Who Mourns For Adonais?" I thought it was pure bullshit. I highly doubt TOS Kirk would have gotten that involved with a member of his crew and particularly one whom one of his senior officers (Scotty) had already been involved with. That's just bad fanfic writing. In such a scenario Scotty's view of Kirk could mirror Doohan's opinion of Shatner.
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Most of Spock's "liasons" were, as quoted from Nimoy himself:
What peeks out occasionally are Spock's emotions. One of the series' favorite gambits was to have him lose his mind. Writers would put him under the influence of an urge to mate, or a flower spore, or a germ that eliminates defense mechanisms, as in an episode called "Naked Time."
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90964169
But when he is not "under the influence", as McCoy says in "Menagerie":
KIRK: He's also half human.
MCCOY: And that half is completely submerged. To be caught acting like us or even thinking like us would completely embarrass him.
There is an appeal to this conflict within TOS Spock. To resolve the conflict and have the man openly engage in romance is counter to his character. You CAN go with the terribly out-of-character Spock of "Cloud-minders", but many find that episode, and that Spock horrible.
I think Spock had something going for that Leila Kalomi character. It's pretty obvious to me that they had some kind of affair going on. True, Spock didn't express his feelings towards her, but it doesn't mean they didn't have a sexual relationship. Spock didn't express his feelings towards Nyota in Star Trek XI, either. At no time does he tell her he loves her. But...yeah...we all know he does! I've said it before and I'll say it again. Nyota is the Leila Kalomi in the Star Trek XI universe.
I happen to be one of those people, as I said in my previous post. (Both because it's out of character for TOS Spock to be open to flirting/romance while in a regular state of mind, and because I didn't think childish, spoiled princess Droxine seemed like someone he would be interested in; maybe it was the actress' performance.)
The quote from Nimoy's book/Roddenberry's memo, while not a canon source, gives a glimpse of Spock's backstory as it was conceived in the early days of TOS: it is implied that Spock might have been more open to a relationship when he was younger, and probably not so skilled in emotional control, and that something happened between him and a human woman which lead to "personal and professional problems".
That's not far from Alternate Spock's relationship with Uhura in STXI; this Spock is several years younger and not yet so good as controlling his emotions. And he still isn't comfortable with expressing his emotions or engaging in romance - at least in the first half of the movie. The turbolift scene is a far cry from Spock telling Droxine she was a work of art or casually talking about Pon Farr. (Which was really out of character). It's also not quite clear how far exactly his relationship with Uhura went before they both ended up on Enterprise; it might not have been more than what happened between Spock and Leila on Earth in the Prime Universe. (Come to think of it, we don't know for sure how far that went, either.)
They took it too far with the transporter scene, though. That scene was OOC for Spock (I'm not even sure if Uhura would have done it), and generally too on the nose and too Hollywood. Granted, he was going to a mission where he could die, but a more approach would have been far better.
However, it still remains to be seen where they take it in the sequel, so it's still too early to talk about Spock openly engaging in romance and being open and comfortable about his emotions.
So, you're saying that the creators of TOS always wanted to make drivel and banality, but were held back by the social and artistic limitations of the times?It's often been asked what could TOS be like if made today. Well, now we know: we have the drivel and banality that was ENT and now ST09.
Har, har, har.So, you're saying that the creators of TOS always wanted to make drivel and banality, but were held back by the social and artistic limitations of the times?It's often been asked what could TOS be like if made today. Well, now we know: we have the drivel and banality that was ENT and now ST09.
So, you're saying that the creators of TOS always wanted to make drivel and banality, but were held back by the social and artistic limitations of the times?It's often been asked what could TOS be like if made today. Well, now we know: we have the drivel and banality that was ENT and now ST09.
I'm not opposed to Rand/Uhura.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSxLqDt2QVA
Watch the clip again. I see the most flirting going on between Uhura and Rand!! Look at them - they look at each other, exchange flirtatious glances, and smile - then Uhura even winks!! You can't tell me that there's no chemistry there or that nothing is going on between them!! Uhura/Rand is quite obvious and supported by TOS cannon.
But that was in the 60's and girls weren't allowed to have relationships - all that racism.. err.. sexism.. err... homophobia.. err... whatever...
Come to think of it - in "What Little Girls are Made of" Uhura hugs Chapel!! Lets see we have Uhura/Kirk, Uhura/Spock, Uhura/Rand, Uhura/Scotty, Uhura/Chapel, Uhura/MirrorSulu. Any takers for Uhura/McCoy?
I DO agree that TOS could be romantic in some episodes. But the romance was confined to a single episode and usually served to advance the plot in some fashion - not romantic sagas. The closest was Spock/Chapel and wasn't really a romantic saga.
Though I wouldn't call what happened between them flirting. More like knowing looks and encouragement.
Like said they were mini sagas. These days, the same stories would be strung together and strung out with the same results. And more screentime for the woman of the week.
I agree. I would also characterize what happened between Uhura and Spock, and what happened between Uhura and everybody else in the room, as knowing looks and not “for real” flirting.I'm not opposed to Rand/Uhura.
Though I wouldn't call what happened between them flirting. More like knowing looks and encouragement.
Far from being out of character, this might be one of the few times we've seen this part of Spock's true character. While we've listen in upon Spock's spoken words and logs before, this is the only time I can recall in a episode when we've heard Spock's personal thoughts. Spock is in a situation that we've rarely seen him in, Droxine isn't a Starfleet subordinate, Spock is not possessed by an alien, under the influence of the chemicals of some plant, nor experiencing Pon Farr. And this is after the episode Amok Time. We're seeing Spock around a available woman who possesses attributes that (for want of better words) he find attractive and desirable.
This might be the genuine "off duty" Spock.
From his personal thoughts, Spock would seem to have a poetic view of the women whom he wishes to romance. And from watching the scene with Droxine where Spock discusses; "Extreme feminine beauty is always disturbing," it's obvious he is romancing her.
Spock did have something going on with Leila on Earth, exactly what isn't clear. The only time we see Leila is while she's under plant spores, possibly she is (was) very much like Droxine. However Leila might only have been a Christie Chapel type situation too.
A 'childish, spoiled princess" might be exactly what Spock is interested in.
So, you're saying that the creators of TOS always wanted to make drivel and banality, but were held back by the social and artistic limitations of the times?It's often been asked what could TOS be like if made today. Well, now we know: we have the drivel and banality that was ENT and now ST09.
Walked right into that one.We already know what TOS would have been like if it had been made in 1969 - the drivel and banality that was Season Three. So it doesn't seem as if such things are time-bound at all...
I'll take TOS' Season 3 over Abrams' shit anytime.So, you're saying that the creators of TOS always wanted to make drivel and banality, but were held back by the social and artistic limitations of the times?
We already know what TOS would have been like if it had been made in 1969 - the drivel and banality that was Season Three. So it doesn't seem as if such things are time-bound at all...
Season 3 gave us episodes with nothing to be embarrassed about:
“Elaan Of Troyius”
“Spectre Of The Gun”
“The Enterprise Incident”
“The Empath”
“For The World Is Hollow And I Have Touched The Sky”
“Is There In Truth No Beauty?”
“The Tholian Web”
“Day Of The Dove”
“Plato’s Stepchildren”
“That Which Survives”
“The Savage Curtain”
Some episodes with flawed execution yet still redeeming aspects:
“Spock’s Brain”
“The Paradise Syndrome”
“The Mark Of Gideon”
“Wink Of An Eye”
“Whom Gods Destroy”
“The Lights Of Zetar”
“Let That Be Your Last Battlefield”
“The Cloud Minders”
“The Way To Eden”
“Requiem For Methuselah”
“Turnabout Intruder”
“All Our Yesterdays”
And one cringe inducing embarrassment:
“And The Children Shall Lead”
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