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How much does the Enterprise weigh?

But they weren't really "portrayed." Just "described." It's not much of a leap to suggest they operate in a similar but vastly more powerful manner than the Jupiter-Io flux tube: a few million ampres of electrical current would produce a fairly impressive jolt against an electrically conductive forcefield.

"Court Martial" showed flashbacks not just "described".
Specifically, it showed RECORDINGS. It did not show the actual ion storm, only its effects on the ship from the bridge point of view.

I think the shown effects on the ship's bridge POV is good enough to illustrate that strong ion storms are dangerous in TOS.

Neither would I, but I do believe that strengthening is in the form of forcefield technology and other technical wizardry. Makes no sense to haul around an extra 2000 tons of structural bracing you're only going to need twice a year when a smaller electronic device can do the same job.

I dunno. The whole Structural Integrity Field idea seemed to be a post-TOS idea. Heck, I don't even think the refit-Enterprise had one. (Rather "old school" :) )

I mean, if one were to use "modern" aka non-TOS Star Trek stuff to build a ship the size of the TOS Enterprise it would look and operate suspiciously like Voyager...
 
As I recall, the whole "structural integrety field" thing was inventented for the Ent.-D because it was so huge, it needed the extra "reinforcement" to stay rigid and keep from collapsing? But no such problem existed for the smaller TOS E.?
 
A structural integrity field does sound like pure contemporary Trek technobabble and pure unadulterated b.s.
 
Candidly when think of starship design and construction I often think more in terms of something of a cross between an aircraft and a submarine.
 
Probably the closest comparison would be to submarines, so we're still taking naval vessels.

No, because submarines have to stand up to immense external pressure GREATER than that of surface ships and have to be sealed against other forms of attack like salinity and temperature inversions. Only the margin for engineering error is comparable, but literally nothing else; the two environments couldn't be any more different.

That's quibbling over details.
What, the difference between a space ship and a submarine? That's a fucking big detail to quibble over, I should think.

In point of fact I'm not sure why anyone would want to compare a futuristic spacecraft to anything other than... well, a REAL spacecraft. Because metaphors and analogies aside, at the end of the day, the Enterprise IS a spacecraft, not a submarine.

Our present spacecraft would only be comparable to shuttecraft in Star Trek.
Strictly referring to SIZE, yes. Beyond which, to the extent such comparisons are even possible between real and fictional vehicles, you can only compare vehicles that belong to more or less the same category. Thus comparing the Enterprise to a submarine makes exactly as much sense as comparing the SeaQuest to a space shuttle.
 
Starships and submarines both operate in extreme environments where the crew must be sheltered.
And spaceships don't?

Both kinds of vessels must be built (and provisioned and equipped) to operate in sustained isolation, a discreet distance from the home port.
And spaceships don't?

And keep in mind that since the bridge is not an open deck on either kind of vessel, the crew must steer each vessel through sensory inputs; no porthole or windshield to look out of.
Except for that big giant viewscreen in the front of the bridge, a feature that is absent on naval vessels (and even most submarines prior to about 2006). OTOH, starships in STXI have a physical WINDOW on the front of the bridge...

The starships of STAR TREK and the submarines of today also share a common organizational heritage: they are naval vessels.
Since starships do not operate at sea, they are--by definition--NOT naval vessels.

You're cut off from going outside (without specialized equipment)
And astronauts aren't?

unless the ship surfaces or with a starship unless you beam or shuttle down to a planet.
Because landing on an alien planet is something totally unprecedented for real space ships...:vulcan:

And both types of vehicles operate mostly by instrumentation.
Lord knows space craft require very little instrumentation to operate. And starships, of course are equipped with hyper-advanced computer cores the size of office buildings. Just like submarines.:cardie:

There's another dimension to the starship/submarine analogy. Modern nuclear subs have very specialized crews.
And spaceships don't?

Maybe all those jumpsuited crewmen like Watkins ("That Which Survives") are super-technical uber-specialists.
Since for some reason your average redshirt seems to have at least a bachelor's degree in one or more scientific fields, somehow I'm unconvinced the comparison to navy enlistedmen is an apt one.
 
Starships and submarines both operate in extreme environments where the crew must be sheltered.
And spaceships don't?

Spacecraft, in the modern sense, are more like aircraft than starships.

Both kinds of vessels must be built (and provisioned and equipped) to operate in sustained isolation, a discreet distance from the home port.
And spaceships don't?

The Apollo missions were each only days in length. The Space Shuttle doesn't stay aloft much longer than that.

And all manned spacecraft and space stations from Earth to date are typically in constant contact with their "mission control" HQ. Those are stark differences from the starships depicted in TREK.
 
Starships and submarines both operate in extreme environments where the crew must be sheltered.
And spaceships don't?

Spacecraft, in the modern sense, are more like aircraft than starships.
What modern space craft other than the shuttle bears ANY resemblance to an aircraft?:confused:

Actually, every Russian space craft since Vostok--with the singular exception of Buran--has been designed almost EXACTLY like a conventional minisub.

The Apollo missions were each only days in length. The Space Shuttle doesn't stay aloft much longer than that.
So "isolated, a discrete distance" you actually mean "two days travel from the nearest human settlement." And since the Apollo missions only flew a hundred and 186 thousand miles from anything RESEMBLING safe harbor, that doesn't count.

And all manned spacecraft and space stations from Earth to date are typically in constant contact with their "mission control" HQ. Those are stark differences from the starships depicted in TREK.

It's also a stark difference from every naval vessel put to sea in the past sixty years. Even submarines are not more than six days away from a friendly port at any particular moment and not more than a radio signal away from a command base. Compare this to early TOS episodes (and even a few TNG episodes) where a message sent to Starfleet are described as taking several hours just to REACH them. That is a condition entirely unique to space craft, especially to REAL space craft, which--BTW--includes unmanned probes.

By all rights, the Enterprise is built flown and operated, basically, like a gigantic manned version of the Cassini-Huyen's spacecraft. It's designed to operate autonomously for years (naval vessels are not; even submarines make a port call every three to six months). It had its own small auxiliary craft for close range surveys (submarines do not, aircraft carriers do not carry scientific probes as standard equipment). It had a vast array of scientific sensors and monitoring equipment (submarines and naval vessels do not). It had the communications gear needed to send information it had collected across interplanetary distances back to its point of origin (even aircraft carriers would be hard pressed to transmit as far as the moon). In point of fact, if you took a shrink ray to NASA's mission control center (compacted it to the size of a matchbox, let's say) mounted it to the side of a probe and shot it into space, you would at that very moment have a manned spacecraft that does EXACTLY what the Enterprise does, in EXACTLY the same way, with the only missing component being a working FTL engine. In this single criterion, the only functional difference between a starship and a modern space craft turns out to be SIZE.

V'ger seemed to think so as well, thus encountering the Enterprise it immediately believed it had discovered another living machine fundamentally similar to itself. To V'ger, Enterprise was just a probe with things living on it; at the end of the day, that's all a starship really is.

I say again: by METAPHOR, the comparison works. But by environment, by mission and design specifications, by technological requirement and any other material category, there's no getting around the fact that the Enterprise aint a submarine. Repeating again: you might as well be comparing the SeaQuest to a space shuttle.
 
The TOS Enterprise is a spacecraft by design and a starship by definition of purpose: to travel interstellar distances between star systems.

Before contemporary times early submarines like the sailing vessels of old operated for extended periods out of contact with higher authority and often had to depend on their own resources. Even a contemporary submarine can operate for extended periods without contact with higher authority if the mission profile requires it.

The Enterprise is a spacecraft yet one far removed from what we are more commonly familiar with, but a spacecraft it is nonetheless. And it would have to be more sturdily designed because of the stresses it is likely to encounter that current spacecraft do not.

Mission profile will dictate greatly how a space vehicle needs to be designed just as it does for any sea going craft or aircraft.

If I'm thinking of how to design a starfaring spacecraft--a starship--whether it be relativistic or FTL my starting point wouldn't be, "Okay how do we apply the construction of an aircraft carrier to building a starship." I'd more likely extrapolate from current spacecraft and aircraft while acknowledging that a submarine is the closest contemporary analogy to how a starship would operate. And note that the viewscreen on the bridge isn't used to steer the ship--it's just a sophisticated computer monitor. The ship is guided by sensors and instrumentation. You are literally flying blind except for the information provided by sensors. In like manner a submarine steers blindly except for the instrumentation of its sonar and radar systems. Even a viewscreen aboard a submarine wouldn't be much use in terms of steering the vessel.
 
Talk about missing the forest for the one lone shrub...
Actually we haven't strayed that far because we're thinking in terms of how the ship would most likely be constructed. And from that we can begin to speculate more clearly on what the thing could eventually weigh.
 
The TOS Enterprise is a spacecraft by design and a starship by definition of purpose: to travel interstellar distances between star systems.

Before contemporary times early submarines like the sailing vessels of old operated for extended periods out of contact with higher authority and often had to depend on their own resources. Even a contemporary submarine can operate for extended periods without contact with higher authority if the mission profile requires it.
Yes, IF the mission profile requires it. Space craft can (and typically are) cut off from realtime communications just by virtue of being really really far away.

The Enterprise is a spacecraft yet one far removed from what we are more commonly familiar with, but a spacecraft it is nonetheless. And it would have to be more sturdily designed because of the stresses it is likely to encounter that current spacecraft do not.
Which, still, does not a naval vessel make.

If I'm thinking of how to design a starfaring spacecraft--a starship--whether it be relativistic or FTL my starting point wouldn't be, "Okay how do we apply the construction of an aircraft carrier to building a starship." I'd more likely extrapolate from current spacecraft and aircraft while acknowledging that a submarine is the closest contemporary analogy to how a starship would operate.
I wouldn't, because a SPACE PROBE is the closest analogy to how a starship would operate. The only thing you have to figure out is how to build crew support facilities into what is essentially a gigantic probe. Primarily this is because a starship does alot of shit that submarines never have to do, and submarines do alot of shit that starships never have to do.

And note that the viewscreen on the bridge isn't used to steer the ship--it's just a sophisticated computer monitor.
A sophisticated monitor? Why, that's the last thing I'd ever expect to find on a space ship.

The ship is guided by sensors and instrumentation. You are literally flying blind except for the information provided by sensors.
And I suppose the fact that modern space craft are flown ENTIRELY by computers means nothing at all to you?
 
I was mainly commenting on newtype's fixation on the smallest details to bolster his stance, while missing the overall picture.

The overall picture is that the Enterprise is NOT a submarine, and is was therefore not designed LIKE a submarine. The most you can say is that some of its missions REMIND us of submarine missions, but since that's equally true of REAL space flight, it's irrelevant to any technical discussion about how the ship may have been designed or constructed.

It's kinda like saying the International Space Station is a giant mobile home. Sure, it kinda feels like that sometimes, but you're not going to learn anything useful about the space station by visiting a trailer park.
 
You do realize that we're engaging in general comparisons, right? That no analogy we come up with is going to be a perfect match, right?

Because with the tack you're taking, the only valid comparison we could make is between the Enterprise and another Constitution class starship, which would get us absolutely nowhere!
 
Yes, we're talking about analogies and not exact comparisons because in the end the Enterprise is wholly unlike anything we've ever had.

Another key distinction in how the ship operates. In the more familiar naval or military structure (or more like what I see of it in films and television) the Captain's orders are often repeated back as they're passed on. In Star Trek we saw this practice mostly in "Balance Of Terror" yet at no other time were Kirk's orders repeated before they were executed--his commands were simply executed.

In "Balance Of Terror" and TWOK we also clearly see that the producers were willing to use the submarine analogy to depict how the ships function in combat.
 
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Yes, we're talking about analogies and not exact comparisons because in the end the Enterprise is wholly unlike anything we've ever had.
this.
it is very much like trying to describe a PC with technology that existed prior to 1965.
 
The question should not be "How much does the Enterprise weigh" but "What is the vessel mass of the TOS Enterprise?"

Considering that already car body panels that are stronger than steel and lighter than aluminum can be and have been made by layering carbon nanotubes in opposing directions and that triangulated tubular framing has been proved extremely light and rigid in auto racing, we should consider that the mass of a structurally sound starship could easily be much less than previously thought. Also, the shapes that make up a starship allow structural members to be mainly in tension and very little in compression, which is also important in getting the required overall strength from the least mass. A proven example of that principle is the geodesic dome, which has great strength for its mass because of this engineering principle of continuous tension and discontinuous compression, keeping in mind that strong materials of low mass have high tensile strength and low compressive strength.

How light? Not to put a number on it, but the largest known living organism today densely occupies about 107 acres (bigger than the TOS Enterprise?) and is estimated to weigh about 6,000 metric tons.

It's called Pando:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando_(tree)

So it could be that the warp coils are more massive than the structure of the ship, as could be the case with other machinery aboard a starship.
 
^^Depends on whether we're trying to guess what the TOS Enterprise would be built out of from a 1960's mindset or a 2010 mindset.

I would imagine with what we know now in 2010 applied to scifi/star trek tech a 2010 Enterprise would be very lightweight but overly dependent on gizmos to not fall apart under normal conditions. Whereas in the 60s, high tech was slapping neutronium onto the hull of an even bigger ship and letting it run amuck with an energy dampening field and an antiproton beam :D
 
I don't see the TOS ship as being particularly reliant on stuff like structural integrity fields in order to maintain hull integrity. Not saying she didn't have something like that, for reinforcement for example, but it wouldn't be essential, like for the E-D.

So, I'm thinking hull and structural members of comparable weight and mass as their counterparts on present day Naval vessels, with an appropriate increase in strength and resilience that one would expect from a tritanium/duranium hull.
 
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