What's the deal with the "French surrendering" jokes?

[stj]

In my experience, most US nationals are virulently xenophobic. They believe that all the good people are fervently pro-American, and kindly extend good people the right to live. They also understand imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and feel kindly towards people who flatter them, i.e., foreigners who want to be Americans, with American culture, economics and politics. At the slightest whiff of difference or real display of independence most are extremely suspicious and contemptuous of foeigners as such. Since America is the acknowledged leader of the free world, these issues don't arise much.

The US government was furious with French resistance to and criticism of the US invasion of Iraq. The government and the conservative movement dominating it revived old cliches. Real patriots naturally hate whomever they are told to hate. As near as I can tell, they are a minority. But very, very few other US nationals regard such thinking as immoral, so the haters (yes, there really is an undercurrent of hate) are influential out of proportion to their true numbers. I hope.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Are you kidding? I don't know how it is in your part of the world, but socially, and multiculturally, we are at each others throats. Obviously, I don't mean on an individual basis, but on a large social scale, people don't trust each other. People force themselves apart because of it. That's why we have the Asian community, the White community, the Black community...etc. That shouldn't be the case, we should just be a community of fuckin Human Beings. I think Political Correctness, and the way it is forced into society is heavily responsible for the shitstorm the world is in today.

Hardly. Clashes between ethnicities, nationalities, cultures et cetera have been around since the beginning of time, because it's a function of primitivism. What you refer to as political correctness-- really voluntary segregation and self-stereotyping-- is just the Left Wing way of repeating Right Wing stupidity.

In my experience, most US nationals are virulently xenophobic.

You must have very limited experience then. That's not the case at all.

 

[Cicero]

#2 is kind of offensive considering that in WWI 1,3 million french soldiers died (+ a couple hundred thousand civilians), and "only" 120K Americans and in WWII +500K French and "only" 220K Americans. So who did more of the fighting?

Here's a little-known fact: more Canadians died in World War I than Americans.

Of course, that's because we were in it from the beginning, and the USA joined late. In fact, historian Tim Travers has argued that the German Army had already been defeated, even before the AEF began to make its weight felt.

Regardless of the situation on land, Britain expected to have to seek a compromise peace with Germany in 1918 as a result of the U-boat campaign - even after the United States entered the war. The deployment of American destroyer flotillas into the Atlantic (which left our battle fleet - the largest in the world - unprotected against submarine attack), the assumption of a convoy system, and the addition of an American battleship division to the British Grand Fleet (which made several thousand British sailors available to crew new Royal Navy destroyers) were essential to the allied victory. Without them, Britain would either have starved or sought a negotiated peace.

Are you kidding? I don't know how it is in your part of the world, but socially, and multiculturally, we are at each others throats. Obviously, I don't mean on an individual basis, but on a large social scale, people don't trust each other. People force themselves apart because of it. That's why we have the Asian community, the White community, the Black community...etc. That shouldn't be the case, we should just be a community of fuckin Human Beings. I think Political Correctness, and the way it is forced into society is heavily responsible for the shitstorm the world is in today.

Hardly. Clashes between ethnicities, nationalities, cultures et cetera have been around since the beginning of time, because it's a function of primitivism. What you refer to as political correctness-- really voluntary segregation and self-stereotyping-- is just the Left Wing way of repeating Right Wing stupidity.

In my experience, most US nationals are virulently xenophobic.

You must have very limited experience then. That's not the case at all.

Indeed. It really isn't.

 

[captcalhoun]

Americans aren't xenophobic, they're just incredibly ethnocentric

 

[stj]

Americans aren't xenophobic, they're just incredibly ethnocentric

The number of people I've had idle conversations with, who revealed in passing their resentment of foreigners who weren't properly grateful for being invaded, and were outraged at the thought "we" are doing people of that sort such favors, strikes me as strong evidence it goes beyond ethnocentrism.

An easygoing tolerance for people who speak English with an accent is inevitable in a large country without a privileged accent.

As to my lack of experience, well, Arizona isn't in personal experience but it counts. Invading Haiti so there wouldn't be any more refugees trying to sail to the US isn't my personal experience either, but it counts. Rounding up Japanese into concentration camps isn's my personal experience, but it counts. What is in my personal experience I tend to judge on the continuum with these well known public experiences. Indulgence to properly admiring foreigners imitating the US is condescension, and I think it is perfectly compatible with xenophobia.

 

[scotpens]

So if the “French surrendering” is BS, then surely so is the “French people, especially waiters, hate Americans”?

Or the stereotype that they all adore Jerry Lewis.

Actually, most younger French people these days barely know who Jerry Lewis is.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Americans aren't xenophobic, they're just incredibly ethnocentric

I tend to agree with this.

But in the end, who *isn't* ethnocentric? Think about it.

 

[MetalPants]

Clashes between ethnicities, nationalities, cultures et cetera have been around since the beginning of time, because it's a function of primitivism.

No, it is an aspect of the species.

 

[Scout101]

So if the “French surrendering” is BS, then surely so is the “French people, especially waiters, hate Americans”?

Or the stereotype that they all adore Jerry Lewis.

Actually, most younger French people these days barely know who Jerry Lewis is.

We CAN all agree that Germans love David Hasselhoff though, right?

 

[STR]

Holy #### people. It's a joke. A bad joke maybe. A stale joke probably, but whatever. NOT worth the effort.

Double shame to the people pretending to be offended by it. If you honestly think you are, then you haven't lived long enough to have something truly offensive happen to you. Triple shame for the people just looking for an excuse to brandish your own pseudo-intellectual way of looking down at people and call them names because you don't really understand them anymore than they you.

 

[RobertScorpio]

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html

Is distorted, but pretty funny none the less.

I like the two rules for French military success.

1) France's armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchman(Joan of Arc, Napoleon).

2) France only wins when America does most of the fighting.

All joking aside however I chalk up much of France's dismal military record to a rather horrible strategic geographical position. No one can wage war in western Europe without going through France.

And then there's that worshiping Jerry Lewis as a god...

 

[clint g]

Americans aren't xenophobic, they're just incredibly ethnocentric

The number of people I've had idle conversations with, who revealed in passing their resentment of foreigners who weren't properly grateful for being invaded, and were outraged at the thought "we" are doing people of that sort such favors, strikes me as strong evidence it goes beyond ethnocentrism.

The US is about as far from being a xenophobic nation as you can get. I say this as the son of Irish and Jamaican immigrants.

An easygoing tolerance for people who speak English with an accent is inevitable in a large country without a privileged accent.

There are many languages other than English spoken in the US. We don't even HAVE an official language, unlike many other countries. It might also interest you to know that Spanish is a pretty close rival to English in terms of usage.

As to my lack of experience, well, Arizona isn't in personal experience but it counts.

Attempting to prevent illegal immigration isn't xenopobia

Invading Haiti so there wouldn't be any more refugees trying to sail to the US isn't my personal experience either, but it counts.

Attempting to prevent illegal immigration isnt xenopobia, never mind the fact that it is an incredible over simplification of the situation.

Rounding up Japanese into concentration camps isn's my personal experience, but it counts.

And while we're at it why don't we call modern German's a bunch of anti-semites. After all, they were murdering Jews by the thousands when this occured

What is in my personal experience I tend to judge on the continuum with these well known public experiences. Indulgence to properly admiring foreigners imitating the US is condescension, and I think it is perfectly compatible with xenophobia.

Yeah, you really don't know what you're talking about.

The United States has many issues. Xenophobia isn't one of them.

 

[stj]

Haiti was invaded by Clinton to take control of a potentially revolutionary situation, the same reason Obama invaded Haiti. The point is, the policy was sold as preventing illegal immigration.

The US is so socially primitive that large numbers of native workers can't get unemployment. Therefore, illegal immigrants are pretty much by definition employed. Why is it a bad thing to have people employed, particularly in low paid, horrible jobs people are reluctant to take? (For good reason I might add.) Because, illegal immigrants are a class of legally discriminated against employees, which undercuts the wages and working standards of native workers. La Migra is a club pointed at all workers, not just desperate foreigners.

But, what is the supposed problem in illegal immigration? Taking "our" jobs is number one. The solution is to extend legal protections and union organization. If those jobs paid a native workers wage with native workers working conditions, native workers would preempt them. The problem is that many domestic businessmen would rather victimize a foreign workforce. Hating on illegal immigrants is both self defeating and cowardly.

Other reason illegal immigration are supposed to be such a problem is the use of public services. Regular citizens have huge problems in accessing welfare, and only xenophobic delusions make anyone think this is a major problem with illegal immigrants. Health services (and garbage pickup and road repairs) do get used. But garbage pickup is a public service, repaired roads help everyone. The desire to see foreigners die rather than provide health services is inhumane and strikes me as conclusive proof of xenophobia.

Lastly, there is education. Education for the children of illegal immigrants is Americanization of illegal immigrants. Public education largely developed as a tool for acculturating immigrants, back before rising xenophobia created the category of illegal immigrant. (Xenophobia is a politie name for racism.) Not wanting to acculturate immigrants is such an insane policy that only psychotic xenophobia can explain it. The idea that people born and raised in this country are somehow foreigners can only be justified by virulent xenophobia.

The supposed threat posed by illegal immigration is largely imaginary. It is xenophobic in essence. Blindly accepting that it is a real problem is a good example of the kind of servility that earns the approval of large portions of the US population.

The US is a big country. It is extraordinary how people are so willing to assume that their personal experience is a good sampling. The idea that Spanish is rivaling English is only true in certain areas, not nearly as large as xenophobic fears would have you believe. By the way, schooling illegal immigrants is the best way to preserve English, at least if you don't segregate schools. But whoops, this country apparently likes to do that too! Oh, dear.

I repeat, I interpret my personal experiences in light of well known public events. Others are ignoring those events.

 

[clint g]

You blew all possible credibility the moment you said "Obama invaded Haiti". If you believe that Obama invaded Haiti then theres no helping you.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

... the same reason Obama invaded Haiti.

Humanitarian relief has been conducted by military forces - US and otherwise - the world over for decades in addition to civilian aid. To characterize it as an "invasion" of Haiti is a particularly warped view of things, and I suspect if we hadn't sent forces to help you would have been accusing the administration of xenophobia then as well, which is a handy little Catch-22.

 

[Caliburn24]

I'm trying to think of a country with a more ethnically diverse population than the USA, but I'm drawing a blank.

I'm trying to think of a country that has absorbed and accepted more immigrants in the past two hundred odd years than the USA, again, drawing a blank.

If you want to call the USA xenophobic go ahead, but by that same criteria every other country in the world is xenophobic too. Go ahead, pick a country, any country, I dare you. There will be some sort of racism or xenophobic episode in its history somewhere. And if we're going to cast our net that wide the term loses all significance and meaning.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Clashes between ethnicities, nationalities, cultures et cetera have been around since the beginning of time, because it's a function of primitivism.

No, it is an aspect of the species.

A primitive aspect, like violence, that is overcome using civilization.

You blew all possible credibility the moment you said "Obama invaded Haiti". If you believe that Obama invaded Haiti then theres no helping you.

I kept reading until "The US is so socially primitive." I should have quit while I was ahead.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Holy #### people. It's a joke. A bad joke maybe. A stale joke probably, but whatever. NOT worth the effort.

Double shame to the people pretending to be offended by it. If you honestly think you are, then you haven't lived long enough to have something truly offensive happen to you. Triple shame for the people just looking for an excuse to brandish your own pseudo-intellectual way of looking down at people and call them names because you don't really understand them anymore than they you.

I'm not offended by anti-French jokes, I'm offended by bad jokes (especially when they perpetuate bad history).

BTW, Americans run the gamut from absolutely accepting of other cultures to an uneasiness and ignoring of other cultures to a flat out hatred of other cultures. To call all Americans xenophobic would be wrong, but it would also be wrong to say there are no xenophobic Americans.

 

[bigdaddy]

It's actually because of several different wars and battles and most notably World War 2. It's manly the fact that the USA has saved the French asses' several times throughout the years and they still act like dicks and think they are better than everyone else. Just last year France was called the rudest country to visit by some international poll. So once the French get the stick out of their ass and stop feeling all high and mighty for no reason then the jokes might stop.

 

[FPAlpha]

It's also military history ignorance.

It's true that Nazi forces bypassed the entire Maginot line and went through Belgium and Netherlands to France but once there the French army actually fought them very well and had in part superior equipment.

However their politicians, fearing widespread destruction in France and especially Paris, rather gave up what they considered a losing fight than to resist as long as possible.

Together with the need of people to put others down to elevate themselves gave birth of the French surrender meme.