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Realisitic Space Battle Help

"how does one "use the heat converter" to hide the heat? "Using" it implies it is doing something and generating it's own heat.

Once again, I will direct you to this site, which pretty much says it all on "stealth" in space.

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3w.html

sojourner, there are technologies more efficient than others aka they generate less heat.
No technology is 100% efficient, but thermodynamics doesn't stop a tech from being 99.99 effective aka from generating very little heat.
Less heat generated equals more time you can use your heat sink until it reaches its limit equals more time in stealth mode.

Have you even read my last post? I specifically said that one can only use a heat sink for a finite period of time - and this does NOT contradict thermodynamics.
 
I read your post, did you read the link I sent you to?

Summarily.
There's nothing there that contradicts what I wrote. If you found something, though, you're welcome to post it here.

In general, that link seems to treat sensors as all-seeing eyes, the enemy as having either incredible luck or almost unlimited resources - none of which is credible.
 
^Wait, so I post links that provide counterargument and you ignore them as "Possibly" irrelevant??? I think you are the one delaying here.
 
sojourner, posting links that contain pages upon pages of text - most of which has nothing to do with what I said - IS a delaying tactic. I'm done wasting my time reading them.

If you're so sure they contain valid counterarguments, write down these counterarguments here. Until you do so, you're very hard to take seriously.
 
OK, since you refuse to use your mouse to click on the links that very good arguments that others have had on this same issue, how's this:

The maximum range a ship running silent with engines shut down can be detected with current technology is:
Rd = 13.4 * sqrt(A) * T2
where:
Rd = detection range (km)
A = spacecraft projected area (m2 )
T = surface temperature (Kelvin, room temperature is about 285-290 K)
If the ship is a convex shape, its projected area will be roughly one quarter of its surface area.
Example: A Russian Oscar submarine is a cylinder 154 meters long and has a beam of 18 meters, which would be a good ballpark estimate of the size of an interplanetary warship. If it was nose on to you the surface area would be 250 square meters. If it was broadside the surface area would be approximately 2770. So on average the projected area would be 1510 square meters ([250 + 2770] / 2).
If the Oscar's crew was shivering at the freezing point, the maximum detection range of the frigid submarine would be 13.4 * sqrt(1510) * 2732 = 38,800,000 kilometers, about one hundred times the distance between the Earth and the Moon, or about 129 light-seconds. If the crew had a more comfortable room temperature, the Oscar could be seen from even farther away.
To keep the lifesystem in the spacecraft at levels where the crew can live, you probably want it above 273 K (where water freezes), and preferably at 285-290 K (room temperature). Glancing at the above equation it is evident that the lower the spacecraft's temperature, the harder it is to detect. "Aha!" you say, "why not refrigerate the ship and radiate the heat from the side facing away from the enemy?"
Ken Burnside explains why not. To actively refrigerate, you need power. So you have to fire up the nuclear reactor. Suddenly you have a hot spot on your ship that is about 800 K, minimum, so you now have even more waste heat to dump.
This means a larger radiator surface to dump all the heat, which means more mass. Much more mass. It will be either a whopping two to three times the mass of your reactor or it will be so flimsy it will snap the moment you engage the thrusters. It is a bigger target, and now you have to start worrying about a hostile ship noticing that you occluded a star.
Dr. John Schilling had some more bad news for would be stealthers trying to radiate the heat from the side facing away from the enemy.
Besides, redirecting the emissions merely relocates the problem. The energy's got to go somewhere, and for a fairly modest investment in picket ships or sensor drones, the enemy can pretty much block you from safely radiating to any significant portion of the sky.
And if you try to focus the emissions into some very narrow cone you know to be safe, you run into the problem that the radiator area for a given power is inversely proportional to the fraction of the sky illuminated. With proportionate increase in both the heat leakage through the back surfaces, and the signature to active or semi-active (reflected sunlight) sensors.
Plus, there's the problem of how you know what a safe direction to radiate is in the first place. You seem to be simultaneously arguing for stealthy spaceships and complete knowledge of the position of enemy sensor platforms. If stealth works, you can't expect to know where the enemy has all of his sensors, so you can't know what is a safe direction to radiate. Which means you can't expect to achieve practical stealth using that mechanism in the first place.
Sixty degrees has been suggested here as a reasonably "narrow" cone to hide one's emissions in. As a sixty-degree cone is roughly one-tenth of a full sphere, a couple dozen pickets or drones are enough to cover the full sky so that there is no safe direction to radiate even if you know where they all are. The possiblility of hidden sensor platforms, and especially hidden, moving sensor platforms, is just icing on the cake.
Note, in particular, that a moving sensor platform doesn't have to be within your emission cone at any specific time to detect you, it just has to pass through that cone at some time during the course of the pre-battle maneuvering. Which rather substantially increases the probability of detection even for very narrow emission cones.
(Somebody suggested using a continuous blinding barrage of nearby nuclear detonations in order to hide thrusting)
The timescale of the radiant emission from a nuclear detonation in vacuum is measured in milliseconds. The recovery time of a good CCD array is measured in microseconds. You'll need to detonate nuclear explosives at a hundred hertz, minimum, to cover an accelerating ship. That's going to get expensive.
It also rather clearly indicates where the enemy should start looking...
Ken Burnside said:
The problem with directional radiation is that you have to know both where the enemy sensor platforms are, and you have to have a way of slowing down to match orbits that isn't the equivalent of swinging end for end and lighting up the torch. Furthermore, directing your waste heat (and making some part of your ship colder, a related phenomena) requires more power for the heat pump - and every W of power generated generates 4 W of waste heat. It gets into the Red Queen's Race very quickly.
Imagine your radiators as being sheets of paper sticking edge out from the hull of your ship. You radiate from the flat sides. If you know exactly where the enemy sensors are, you can try and put your radiators edge on to them, and will "hide". You want your radiators to be 180 degrees apart so they're not radiating into each other.
Most configurations that radiate only to a part of the sky will be vastly inefficient because they radiate into each other. Which means they get larger and more massive, which reduces engine performance...and they still require that you know where the sensor is.
The next logical step is to make a sunshade that blocks your radiation from the sensor. This also requires knowing where the sensor is, and generates problems if the sensor blocker is attached to your ship, since it will slowly heat up to match the equilibrium temperature of your outer hull....and may block your sensors in that direction as well.
detectors02.jpg

If you are actually trying to apply thrust, the upper equation comes into play, and they can see you all over the solar system. What's worse, they can measure the spectrum of your drive to estimate the thrust and use a telescope to observe your acceleration. Simple division will reveal the mass of your ship.
"Well fine!", you say, "I'll just burn once and drift silently"
But now you will be months in getting to your target. The extra time increases the chance that the enemy will spot you. It will be harder to keep your directional radiator aimed away from any enemy observers. And if you are spotted, so much of your ship mass will be radiators instead of weapons, so that the enemy ships will out-gun you by an obscene margin.
Not to mention the fact that once your initial burn is spotted, the enemy will be able to calculate your future position anytime in the future. They can set a computer controlled telescope to track your current calculated position, and will quickly spot any future course correction burns.

And to add a caveat to your original post, no, it's not impossible to build something 99.99% efficient. Theoretically.
 
Your rather large quote said nothing about directing the heat in an energy sink and keeping it there for a finite period of time.


It said that if you radiate your heat omnidirectionally, it will be detected - obviously;
And then it treated the problem of directionally radiating waste heat - assuming, as I said, that the enemy either has gigantic resources or incredible luck, and never once acknowledging that radiating heat in only one direction greately increases your chances of NOT being detected (space is big; really big; you just won't beleive how big it is; and the enemy just happens to be in the way of the cone of emitted heat).
 
Sigh, to quote from within my quote:

Plus, there's the problem of how you know what a safe direction to radiate is in the first place. You seem to be simultaneously arguing for stealthy spaceships and complete knowledge of the position of enemy sensor platforms. If stealth works, you can't expect to know where the enemy has all of his sensors, so you can't know what is a safe direction to radiate. Which means you can't expect to achieve practical stealth using that mechanism in the first place.
Sixty degrees has been suggested here as a reasonably "narrow" cone to hide one's emissions in. As a sixty-degree cone is roughly one-tenth of a full sphere, a couple dozen pickets or drones are enough to cover the full sky so that there is no safe direction to radiate even if you know where they all are. The possiblility of hidden sensor platforms, and especially hidden, moving sensor platforms, is just icing on the cake.
Note, in particular, that a moving sensor platform doesn't have to be within your emission cone at any specific time to detect you, it just has to pass through that cone at some time during the course of the pre-battle maneuvering. Which rather substantially increases the probability of detection even for very narrow emission cones.

And to reply to:
Your rather large quote said nothing about directing the heat in an energy sink and keeping it there for a finite period of time.

You would need "hand-waveum" technology to achieve this without generating a temperature above background levels.
 
About emitting heat directionally:
I said it before: space IS big.
And most battles won't be fought where your enemy deployed a gazillion senzor drones in relative proximity and on all sides of your ship, picking up your waste heat before it becomes undistinguishable from background heat.
You see, in all other scenarios, the enemy's sensors are NOT all around you. You don't know where they are? That doesn't chanage the fact that emitting you heat in only one direction greately improves the chance of you not being detected.

About dropping heat in a heat sink:
"You would need "hand-waveum" technology to achieve this without generating a temperature above background levels."

You would need efficient tech to be able to maintain heat stealth for a more extended period of time.

As for the rest - you drop heat in the sink BECAUSE you don't emit it; and the sink eventually reaches its limit due to thermodynamics.
What 'hand-waveum' are you talking about?
 
The fact that you think the sink can capture 100% of heat generated without any emitting from the ship.

As to "space is big", yea, it is. But space battles will occur in star systems. Most likely occupied systems. which means sensor nets. Why would anyone fight over empty interstellar space?
 
The fact that you think the sink can capture 100% of heat generated without any emitting from the ship.

Efficient radiators are quite difficult to build. It's not a problem keeping almost all heat inside the ship - as long as there's not much heat.
And if your heat sink is cold enough, it will absorb this heat, keeping the ship cool - for a while, until the heat sink reaches the temperature of the ship.

Then, you just have to cool the radiator again, radiating the heat - unidirectionally, preferably - and you're again heat invisible.

Why would anyone fight over empty interstellar space?
Your previous pos made NO difference whatsoever between battles fought in an enemy system or everywhere else - let's see - perhaps your home system or interstellar space?
It just assumed your enemy has clairvoyance or unlimited resources.

As to your question - for example, because once you have an interstellar warship (with corresponding propulsion technology) in an enemy system, you most definitely have the means to obliterate all planets in that system from any point you happen to be in.
 
Look, I really don't feel like repeating the entire arguments listed in the two links I provided. If your not interested in looking at them and learning something, well, that's your loss. Enjoy your ignorance.
 
Look, I really don't feel like repeating the entire arguments listed in the two links I provided. If your not interested in looking at them and learning something, well, that's your loss. Enjoy your ignorance.

You already 'repeated' the arguments provided in those links, sojourner - and they had little to do with what I was discussing.
They proved to be easily dismissable.

And, before you call someone else ignorant, you should look at yourself.
 
What I repeated was a small part of what is presented in those links. Which just illustrates my point.
 
A rather great gent calling himself Nyrath has contributed the following website so that folks like you can get some real physics information as to what space war might look like..

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3t.html

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3z.html


good luck...

Wow, great idea!:rolleyes:

Whups sorry, after only 1 reply to this post had been made...I was interrupted in mid-post by a phone call and hit the post button only to see that you'd had the same idea I did...





Only goes to show that great minds think alike...




there is a way to mask the thermal signature of a spacecraft's life support system... if the spacecraft takes up a position in the thermal umbra behind a shielding object..... but it also makes observation of the target very hard...
 
If you want to see a simulation of a space battle that pretty much obeys Newtonian Physics, check out Independence War also known as I-WAR. It was a late 90's simulation game that tried to give real depiction of space battles. The ships had particle beam cannons and missiles. Maneuvering was complex turns were not instant. You could also coast and flip over to fire on your targets. It had FTL for interstellar travel to other star systems. You did not fight during FTL. For rapid travel in real space, it used LDS(Linear Displacement Drive). I think it moved space around the vehicle for rapid travel between planets. I loved this game. I need to reload it one of these days. Of course I first need to break down and buy a new graphics card.
 
I need to reload it one of these days. Of course I first need to break down and buy a new graphics card.
Probably not necessary, given the age of the game. I wouldn't be surprised if even Intel integrated graphics could run it now.

Sounds like an interesting game, and I see that it is available on GoG.com, so I might have to check it out one of these days. :)
 
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