• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Same canon?

There may, in some cases, be modified history, with events after 2233.04, but beyond that, it's the same.

Exactly. I highly doubt that the Doomsday Machine is going to turn around because Vulcan was destroyed. What about V'Ger? That big cloud is still on it's way!

True, but those things can easily be explained away though, since we have Spock Prime in this new universe who will undoubtedly tell Starfleet all about the DM, V'ger, (insert Earth-threatening maguffin here) et. al, and how to deal with them. Hell, the Enterprise doesn't even need to be involved; Starfleet can send out other ships to deal with those problems offscreen while we watch the new adventures of Kirk and Co.
 
There may, in some cases, be modified history, with events after 2233.04, but beyond that, it's the same.

Exactly. I highly doubt that the Doomsday Machine is going to turn around because Vulcan was destroyed. What about V'Ger? That big cloud is still on it's way!

True, but those things can easily be explained away though, since we have Spock Prime in this new universe who will undoubtedly tell Starfleet all about the DM, V'ger, (insert Earth-threatening maguffin here) et. al, and how to deal with them. Hell, the Enterprise doesn't even need to be involved; Starfleet can send out other ships to deal with those problems offscreen while we watch the new adventures of Kirk and Co.

I see no reason for him to do so. He helped Kirk to fight Nero's outside influence, but that's it. They will have to take care of everything themselves. Prime Directive/General Order 1 anyone?
 
My point was that minutae like Vulcan's sky doesn't and shouldn't matter. It doesn't to the majority at all, and if it really bothered those making TMP then Vulcan would have had a red sky in that movie back in 1979, not when they're trying to leach money out of longtime fans in 2001.
Vulcan's red sky is hardly a minute matter, because details like that is what seperates Vulcan from Earth. You know? Make it look ALIEN.

So if details that don't affect the plot bother you, would you mind if I changed Uhura into a caucasian blonde? If it doesn't affect the story or affect the characters, why should we care?

It's not THAT major. It simply establishes that Vulcan likely has, like any life-supporting Class M realistically should, seasonal and/or weather changes that can change the color and appearance of the sky.

It's one of those things where yes, it's a little inconsistent, but for which a reasonable explanation can be made.
From a scientific standpoint should Vulcan have an around the clock red sky? Even the "proto-Vulcan" Mars, has been shown to have blue skies when storms are not throwing dust particles into its atmosphere.

Should Star Trek's "science" be locked in the 1960s?
 
Exactly. I highly doubt that the Doomsday Machine is going to turn around because Vulcan was destroyed. What about V'Ger? That big cloud is still on it's way!

True, but those things can easily be explained away though, since we have Spock Prime in this new universe who will undoubtedly tell Starfleet all about the DM, V'ger, (insert Earth-threatening maguffin here) et. al, and how to deal with them. Hell, the Enterprise doesn't even need to be involved; Starfleet can send out other ships to deal with those problems offscreen while we watch the new adventures of Kirk and Co.

I see no reason for him to do so. He helped Kirk to fight Nero's outside influence, but that's it. They will have to take care of everything themselves. Prime Directive/General Order 1 anyone?

Does it really apply? Being an Alternate Reality, it could be argued that Spock's presense is merely part of the natural development of events from 2233.04 onwards.

OTOH, Spock may choose not to share further information as an "act of faith" in Kirk and crew in the new reality.
 

It's a childish way of saying, "If I can't have the old universe back, then you have to make the new one a carbon copy of it." Which negates the whole purpose of bringing Star Trek back to life.



In fiction: Some fans say they were identical universes until Narada, and some they they were already quite different.

In reality: The man who will write the final draft of Star Trek 2 (D. Lindelof) advises that the new universe will become quite different, moving forward.
 
Vulcan's red sky is hardly a minute matter, because details like that is what seperates Vulcan from Earth. You know? Make it look ALIEN.

So if details that don't affect the plot bother you, would you mind if I changed Uhura into a caucasian blonde? If it doesn't affect the story or affect the characters, why should we care?

It's not THAT major. It simply establishes that Vulcan likely has, like any life-supporting Class M realistically should, seasonal and/or weather changes that can change the color and appearance of the sky.

It's one of those things where yes, it's a little inconsistent, but for which a reasonable explanation can be made.
From a scientific standpoint should Vulcan have an around the clock red sky? Even the "proto-Vulcan" Mars, has been shown to have blue skies when storms are not throwing dust particles into its atmosphere.

Should Star Trek's "science" be locked in the 1960s?

We are now talking scientific accuracy vs. consistency. I'd say no, Star Trek's science, like Vejur, must evolve, and in some respects, always has.

This is an inconsistency with what was portrayed, but not with what has been established.

We've seen the Enterprise as she appeared in Star Trek: TMP, which in the strict sense, is inconsistent with how the Enterprise was portrayed in TOS.

And yet, because of the refit, it is easily explained. We did not SEE the refit, but we've seen plenty of evidence that it happened.

Thanks to this movie, we now know that Vulcan's sky color does change, and it is logical to assume that this is season and/or weather related, just like on Mars.
 
Exactly. I highly doubt that the Doomsday Machine is going to turn around because Vulcan was destroyed. What about V'Ger? That big cloud is still on it's way!

True, but those things can easily be explained away though, since we have Spock Prime in this new universe who will undoubtedly tell Starfleet all about the DM, V'ger, (insert Earth-threatening maguffin here) et. al, and how to deal with them. Hell, the Enterprise doesn't even need to be involved; Starfleet can send out other ships to deal with those problems offscreen while we watch the new adventures of Kirk and Co.

I see no reason for him to do so. He helped Kirk to fight Nero's outside influence, but that's it. They will have to take care of everything themselves. Prime Directive/General Order 1 anyone?

So Spock Prime is just going sit back and watch while numerous threats to Earth happen that he has information with which to combat them? The whale probe alone would destroy Earth without 20th century humpback whales, which Spock deduced because he happened to be on a functioning BoP at the time that wasn't neutralized by the probe, right after leaving Vulcan and his ressurection from the dead. In this universe, that's not going to happen, because there'll be no Vulcan. Prime Directive/General Order 1? As Spock Prime would say, they can "go to Hell."
 
Last edited:
Duhkat,

Most of the events portrayed in TOS that Spock could potentially change via warnings etc. are still a number of years in the future.

The movie is set in 2258 at the end, so we have between 2258 and 2266 before the events in TOS occur.

There's no rush to see what we've seen before, and no reason to assume either way what Spock is going to warn them about.
 
It's a childish way of saying, "If I can't have the old universe back, then you have to make the new one a carbon copy of it." Which negates the whole purpose of bringing Star Trek back to life.
Copy or not, this new Trek is full of a**holes, and I don't like any of them.

And I'm not saying we should make a carbon copy of the old Original series. Last thing I want in a Star Trek movie/series is for the women to be wearing short skirts, have no roles of authority and reduced to romantic love interests that don't serve the plot or the characters. That's what TOS had and that's what they carried over here in spades, and I hated it.

What I think worked best for Star Trek was that over the span of several series, it franchise really did grow. We started to get women in command, more professional looking uniforms, story arcs that weren't always limited to "Something of the week!", and big historical moments that totally made this universe believable (Wolf 359 being Star Trek's 9/11, Dominion War changing how the Federation operates). Even with the likes of Voyager, these series still had some really great Star Trek moments that didn't solve every problem with a phaser or photon torpedo, and I loved DS9's homages to TOS, even expanding upon my favorite race the Tholians. :)

But that universe is done with. The new movie has made more money than anything else and I'm certain that nobody wants to confuse people with the concept of two realities when they can just stick with one. I don't like going back, I like going forward. I don't like rebooting, I like continuing. While I will say there are exceptions to rebooting something, there's just so much that Star Trek has accomplished in it's 40+ year run that I really would have liked to have seen it continue and prosper. That's not what Trek09 is doing.
 
Duhkat,

Most of the events portrayed in TOS that Spock could potentially change via warnings etc. are still a number of years in the future.

The movie is set in 2258 at the end, so we have between 2258 and 2266 before the events in TOS occur.

There's no rush to see what we've seen before, and no reason to assume either way what Spock is going to warn them about.

I'm not saying that we need to see it. Quite the opposite in fact. Jeyl stated that these particular examples (DM, V'ger) will still be coming, because Nero's incursion did not stop them from existing. I'm simply countering that there's a logical way for them to be dealt with offscreen, by Spock informing Starfleet about what he knows.

What I think worked best for Star Trek was that over the span of several series, it franchise really did grow.

But that's not really true. The franchise stagnated for over ten years simply because UPN were calling the shots, and at the end of those ten years it was completely dead.
 
Jeyl,

I keep hearing that it is "Full of A$$holes", yet I don't see that.

To be blunt, the original continuity is, IN FACT and BY DESIGN, unaltered.

Uhura was serving as a love interest, but TOS had short skirts, and she was certainly fluent in alien languages, and had a lot of technical skill, which is MORE than she had in TOS.

We tried continuing, and we got Nemesis. We tried a direct prequel to TOS, and we got Enterprise.

Whether we like them or not, and I actually do, they performed dismally.

It was this or nothing.
 
But that's not really true.


Correct. There was no "growth" at all. Star Trek didn't change a bit from 1987 to 2005. That's why everybody got sick of it, and Enterprise had to finish its run with a humiliating 0.9 Nielsen rating.

Of course, a small minority of people don't like change, even in drama. And Star Trek never had any. For them it was the comfortable familiarity of the Star Trek universe that appealed to them in the first place. It was like taking a xanax. Watching Star Trek made them feel all warm and cozy. No surprises. Nothing to ruffle anyone's feathers. Very pleasant and relaxing. But for most people comfortable familiarity puts you to sleep.

If the new film had been, in any way, comfortably familiar, it would have been every bit as successful as Enterprise. And Star Trek would be dead for the last time.
 
Uhura was serving as a love interest, but TOS had short skirts, and she was certainly fluent in alien languages, and had a lot of technical skill, which is MORE than she had in TOS.

Ok, you've established that she's got all these skills, now let's see how they payed off in the movie.

- fluent in alien languages. Pointless. The Romulans speak perfect english the entire time. No need to translate. Despite me negativity towards ENTERPRISE, at least Hoshi actually used her language skills to translate Romulan. And if you listen to the commentary track for Trek09, everyone gives themselves a pat on the back for having the Romulans speaking English, saying the decision was "brilliant".
- Has a lot of technical skills. Pointless. She's super skilled at hearing... nothing. Oh! She just said that Transporters are back online! Wait one more second and four other people will say the same thing!
- Is a stern professional who takes her job very seriously. Laughable. Vulcan has minutes before complete and utter destruction, Spock orders Uhura to issue a planet wide evacuation. Since there are billions of lives at stake and every second matters, Uhura certainly would be right on the job, right? Wrong. She leaves her station, questions Spock on what he is about to do and than runs back to her station like it was no big deal. It's Chekov's best scene in the whole movie because he says "Aye yai yai" while you see her running in the background.
- BONUS ROUND! She also leaves her station to see Spock off. Why? Cause she's in love I guess, and love is far more important than manning your stations in a time of crises, with Earth getting close to destruction. But to her credit, her station is pretty useless so who can blame her. Oh, wait! Captain Kirk just gave the order to "Hail them now"! Uhura, where are you? Oh wait, you went to the Transporter room again, didn't you? Now you're running back to your station. Maybe you'll get there in time before Chekov does your job-- "Aye!" Too late.

Now, what did Uhura from TOS get to do?
- Takes over the helm quite often in episodes like "The Man Trap" and "Balance of Terror".
- Is willing to go up against evil Sulu in "Mirror, mirror".
- Actually uses her station instead of just looking at a light, getting up and striking a pose while saying "We're being hailed!".
- And how many times must I bring this up? She took command of the gawd dang Enterprise and saved the day! No "Kirk's report is accurate", no "I'm not picking up any Romulan Transmissions", just pure awesomeness that is "I am assuming command of the Enterprise". You think NuUhura will ever get that sort of authority in Star Trek under the care of Bob and Alex, two writers who would sooner kill off the only female Transformer before she even got to finish one sentence? Ya, probably not.

I keep hearing that it is "Full of A$$holes", yet I don't see that.
Kirk yells at Spock, disobeys his orders, assaults two on-duty security officers who were following orders, and actually whines about Spock violating protocols. So Kirk thinks he can break any rule whenever he wants to, but if someone else does, that's crossing the line. And he's in this all because he was dared to. Not because he believes in what the Federation is doing, not because he's a romantic adventurer (You know, like classic Kirk), not because he wants to explore the final frontier. He's doing it because he was dared to. Ya, he's an a**hole.

Uhura also complains about being assigned to a ship that is not the Enterprise. Yes, she's a cadet who hasn't graduated yet, is being assigned to a starship which will no doubt showcase her incredible skills as a communications officer and give her experience in the field that most cadets haven't gotten yet, and she starts whining about wanting to be on the Enterprise? Ever heard of starting from the bottom and working your way to the top? So what if you're the top of your class? A ship is a ship and most of the time it's only as good as it's crew. If you had even half of the skills you claim to have, you could have helped made the Farragut one heck of a good ship, old or new. You might have even saved the ship before it entered Vulcan!

Bones. His original character did have a lot of great moments that didn't involve arguing or shouting, yet that's all he does here. No words of wisdom and no senior experience to pass.

Scotty: Here we once had a likable guy with a heart of gold who took great pride in his work, now reduced to a comedic character who's only purpose is to make the audience laugh. Where as the original Scotty will defend the Enterprise with a vengeance if anyone bad mouths her, NuScotty isn't afraid to make womanizing groping jokes about her.
 
Last edited:
Bitter, upset TOS fan who can't get over not liking the modern Star Trek a whole year later: Pointless.
What's to get over? I didn't like the movie.

And I'm not a TOS fan, I'm a Star Trek fan. You know? The other Star Treks that don't involve Kirk or Spock? TOS isn't even my favorite Trek series.
 
Uhura was serving as a love interest, but TOS had short skirts, and she was certainly fluent in alien languages, and had a lot of technical skill, which is MORE than she had in TOS.

Ok, you've established that she's got all these skills, now let's see how they payed off in the movie.
Very Well .. :)
- fluent in alien languages. Pointless. The Romulans speak perfect english the entire time. No need to translate.
Incorrect. Her skills were needed to check to see if there were ROMULAN transmissions. Hence her promotion.
Despite me negativity towards ENTERPRISE, at least Hoshi actually used her language skills to translate Romulan.
True, and she was implied to be laying the foundation for the Universal Translator.
And if you listen to the commentary track for Trek09, everyone gives themselves a pat on the back for having the Romulans speaking English, saying the decision was "brilliant".
I don't remember that specifically, but they were speaking from a DRAMATIC place, and it fits the Romulans. Still is not a negative to Uhura's established linguistic skills.
- Has a lot of technical skills. Pointless. She's super skilled at hearing... nothing.
Actually, NOT pointless. It establishes, right there, that she is not simply a "hailing frequencies open" phone operator. Establishing this in dialogue is in and of itself a direct refutation of your charge.
Oh! She just said that Transporters are back online! Wait one more second and four other people will say the same thing!
You mean, she CAN'T say that, because passing on relevent information is "beneath her" or something? Pull the other one.
- Is a stern professional who takes her job very seriously. Laughable.
Disagree. Let's look closer ...
Vulcan has minutes before complete and utter destruction, Spock orders Uhura to issue a planet wide evacuation.
She's in Communications, and it's the most prudent course of action to get everyone off the planet.
Since there are billions of lives at stake and every second matters, Uhura certainly would be right on the job, right? Wrong. She leaves her station, questions Spock on what he is about to do and than runs back to her station like it was no big deal.
Well, simply sending out a message probably is NOT a big deal, but the Captain leaving the Bridge like that is something she's not going to miss. She's a Pro, NOT A ROBOT.
It's Chekov's best scene in the whole movie because he says "Aye yai yai" while you see her running in the background.
Chekov's reaction was about the GENERAL situation, and NOT related to Uhura specifically. Irrelevent.
- BONUS ROUND! She also leaves her station to see Spock off. Why? Cause she's in love I guess, and love is far more important than manning your stations in a time of crises, with Earth getting close to destruction.
Actually, she wanted to know why Spock was leaving the Bridge in a time of crisis. She's *wait for it ...* THINKING !!!!
But to her credit, her station is pretty useless so who can blame her. Oh, wait! Captain Kirk just gave the order to "Hail them now"! Uhura, where are you? Oh wait, you went to the Transporter room again, didn't you? Now you're running back to your station. Maybe you'll get there in time before Chekov does your job-- "Aye!" Too late.
She had her earpiece in, and works for an actual DEPARTMENT.
Now, what did Uhura from TOS get to do?
Over 79 episodes as opposed to 1 movie ...

- Takes over the helm quite often in episodes like "The Man Trap" and "Balance of Terror".
Thats TWICE, I believe. Can't think of other times.
- Is willing to go up against evil Sulu in "Mirror, mirror".
Oh wow. One moment.
- Actually uses her station instead of just looking at a light, getting up and striking a pose while saying "We're being hailed!".
Uhura was working the controls earlier before they arrived at Vulcan. Sure knew her equipment then.
- And how many times must I bring this up? She took command of the gawd dang Enterprise and saved the day! No "Kirk's report is accurate", no "I'm not picking up any Romulan Transmissions", just pure awesomeness that is "I am assuming command of the Enterprise".
Once, if I remember rightly.
You think NuUhura will ever get that sort of authority in Star Trek under the care of Bob and Alex, two writers who would sooner kill off the only female Transformer before she even got to finish one sentence? Ya, probably not.
No idea. I can't predict the future any more than YOU can. Trek 2009 was written in a very different way to Bay's Bollox, so your comparisson is unfair.

I keep hearing that it is "Full of A$$holes", yet I don't see that.
Kirk yells at Spock, disobeys his orders, assaults two on-duty security officers who were following orders, and actually whines about Spock violating protocols.
Most of this is because Spock's judgement is frustratingly hampered, and Kirk was (on one occasion) trying to "save the bridge".
So Kirk thinks he can break any rule whenever he wants to, but if someone else does, that's crossing the line.
I remember the same accusation levied Several times in the Trek Movies, most notably General Chang in Trek VI. That doesn't make him an a-hole, it makes him a determined man who knows that rules sometimes HAVE to be broken to get things done. He's not a Beauracrat.
And he's in this all because he was dared to.
He joined Starfleet INITIALLY because he was dared to, yes.
Not because he believes in what the Federation is doing, not because he's a romantic adventurer (You know, like classic Kirk), not because he wants to explore the final frontier.
He stuck around in the Academy, and we don't know if Clasic Kirk actually entered Starfleet as a thrill-seeker, on a dare, or even that his romantic view of exploration did or did not develop later.
He's doing it because he was dared to.
Initially ...
Ya, he's an a**hole.
He was not, as evidenced by his working to save Earth. If there is a BIT of an a-hole in him, it's no more than we saw in TOS or the TOS Movies.

Uhura also complains about being assigned to a ship that is not the Enterprise.
She's ambitious, top of her class, and is being insulted by not getting a position for which she's OBVIOUSLY (point of scene) qualified.
Yes, she's a cadet who hasn't graduated yet, is being assigned to a starship which will no doubt showcase her incredible skills as a communications officer and give her experience in the field that most cadets haven't gotten yet, and she starts whining about wanting to be on the Enterprise?
I guess ambition is something alien to you.
Ever heard of starting from the bottom and working your way to the top?
Ever heard of getting just recognition for your efforts?
So what if you're the top of your class?
So what if you are qualified for something, and being passed up, and wanting to know why?
A ship is a ship and most of the time it's only as good as it's crew.
True, but in ANY military, people want the newest and best assignments. Prestige, pride and ambition.
If you had even half of the skills you claim to have, you could have helped made the Farragut one heck of a good ship, old or new.
True, but irrelevent.
You might have even saved the ship before it entered Vulcan!
Possible, but actually less likely, since there was no warning until Kirk put two-and-two together with information they lacked.

Bones. His original character did have a lot of great moments that didn't involve arguing or shouting, yet that's all he does here. No words of wisdom and no senior experience to pass.
No time or plot reason. Next movie we'll likely see it.

Scotty: Here we once had a likable guy with a heart of gold who took great pride in his work, now reduced to a comedic character who's only purpose is to make the audience laugh.
His Engineering skill was on display, and his physics knowledge and Transporter genius was a subtle plot point.
Where as the original Scotty will defend the Enterprise with a vengeance if anyone bad mouths her, NuScotty isn't afraid to make womanizing groping jokes about her.
He's not even ON THE SHIP when we meet him. His joke about her Ample Nacelles was a statement of wanting to be on board the ship.

But, I guess any sexual innuendo is inherently sexist to you.
 
She's a Pro, NOT A ROBOT.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the "robot" connection when it comes to a professional trying to inform a planet that the entire population is in danger and they need to evacuate. I really don't.

Well, simply sending out a message probably is NOT a big deal, but the Captain leaving the Bridge like that is something she's not going to miss.

Not a big deal? Vulcan has minutes left so every second counts. Rather than do what she's been assigned to do, she ignores her duties, wastes his time, and accomplishes what? A reason for her not to worry about him? Hey idiot, try worrying about all those people down on the planet. I think they need your help more than you need reassurance.

Pro's don't leave their station when given an order in a time of crises just to question the captain in what he is about to do. You have a duty, he has a duty. You're doing no one any favors by asking what's going on, because you should know enough already. Planet dying, population in danger, save as many as you can. She doesn't do that. In fact, if she hadn't delayed him in getting to the Transporter room, he would have arrived there earlier than he did originally and would have given him those few precious seconds it would have taken to beam everyone up to the Enterprise including his mother. So there you go. Uhura was one of the many elements that caused Amanda's death.
 
Well, Uhura knew that if Spock was forced to choose between her and Amanda, she'd lose every time. This was her way of getting Amanda out of the picture. :)
 
Well, Uhura knew that if Spock was forced to choose between her and Amanda, she'd lose every time. This was her way of getting Amanda out of the picture. :)
Ha. At least that would have added some detail into their vague romance.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top