Should novels set in the JJVerse rectify the film's plot holes?

[Captain Robert April]

Getting back to the original topic, I say no. Don't resolve the plot holes, run with them. Revel in the whole choatic mess that is JJTrek. And see if it plays as well on the printed page as it allegedly does on the big screen.

 

[TheAlmanac]

Although I don't agree with a lot of what Christopher is saying--I think there's plenty of canonical evidence that Spock is half-human in more than just a cultural sense...

In what way? Whenever they've referred to Spock's "human half" onscreen, it's been in reference to his emotional side or failures of logical control. Which is nonsense, because, again, the whole reason Vulcans adopted logic in the first place is because their innate emotions are more intense than human emotions. Which is compelling proof in and of itself that Vulcans are capable of racism, because it's completely illogical to ascribe Vulcan control to genetics rather than learning.

So I'm curious to know what it is you're referring to.

Well, Spock's blood in "Journey to Babel" comes to mind immediately:

CHAPEL: It isn't true Vulcan blood either. It has human blood elements in it.
SPOCK: It should be possible to filter out the human factors.

Spock's hope that he might be spared the pon farr also seemed to be because he was half-human, and in ST IV, Amanda said that Spock has feelings the computer would ask about because he is half-human. (Hey, it's inconsistent with what you just described, but it's there. )

It sounds like you're arguing that Spock is just physiologically Vulcan, through and through, and his Human mother had no effect on his genetics. Star Trek shows us that B'Elanna Torres can be separated into a Human and a Klingon with the right technology, that the Klingon bits can be added back to the Human bits, and that she still has to deal with her "Klingon half" despite being raised largely by her Human father (and hating it to the point of trying to genetically modify her unborn child), so it's not as if the franchise has just the one example of "innate" qualities related to species background.

 

[Christopher]

It sounds like you're arguing that Spock is just physiologically Vulcan, through and through, and his Human mother had no effect on his genetics.

Wha-a-a-at? No, I'm talking about his behavior exclusively. RookieBatman's perception was that his behavior in the film was too human, and I was pointing out that there was good reason to believe that Amanda was a major influence on his behavior. My whole point is that Spock's Vulcanlike behavior is the result of learning rather than genetics, because Vulcan genetics without the strict conditioning of Vulcan culture would give you extremely passionate and illogical beings (cf. the Romulans). Therefore, when he lapses from logic and it's blamed on his "human half," it would be nonsense to interpret that behavior as arising from genetics, and therefore the "human half" under discussion would have to be the "half" of his socialization and behavioral conditioning that was influenced by Amanda's human behavior and values. Therefore leading to my point, that his behavior demonstrates Amanda's influence and it is thus illogical to conclude that she had no measurable impact on his psychology.

So I wasn't talking about his genetics one way or the other. Obviously he's a hybrid genetically. But my point is that that's not relevant to the behavioral issues that I'm discussing.

 

[JarodRussell]

Well, Spock's blood in "Journey to Babel" comes to mind immediately:

CHAPEL: It isn't true Vulcan blood either. It has human blood elements in it.
SPOCK: It should be possible to filter out the human factors.

You know, that is a line from the friggin' 60s. Back then, people thought masturbation causes blindness and black people had different blood than white people.

What is Spock's blood supposed to look like?4 liters green and 4 liters red blood?

Therefore leading to my point, that his behavior demonstrates Amanda's influence and it is thus illogical to conclude that she had no measurable impact on his psychology.

I'd say unless Amanda was some sort of fundamentalist her influence on Spock would have been minor in contrast to the influence of the entire Vulcan culture. That's why I asked if they lived in some sort of "Little Earth", a district inhabited in majority by Humans, because that is the only way a kid can get confused by his cultural heritage. Did Spock ever live on Earth during his childhood? That would have also explained the difficulties he has.

It worked better with Worf (I know he wasn't "half-Klingon"). He was with Klingons until he was - I don't know - 5-7 years old and THEN was brought to human parents. Those 5 years (or whatever they were) had a major influence on him. So that's why he was constantly confused and had problems integrating in Human culture. And his physical difference to human kids emphasized that he was different, so he decided he wanted to follow Klingon traditions, yet at the same time he joined Starfleet.

Spock on the other hand was raised on Vulcan and had ALL physical and mental abilities the Vulcans had. He suffered from Pon Farr every 7 years, I'm sure he didn't have to go through human puberty, he could perform mindmelds (even forced mind melds against other "full-blooded" Vulcans), he had the pointed ears, the green blood, the higher body temperature, and so on.

 

[JD]

I'm sorry but I've got to go with Christopher here. Even when you leave in a society that differs from the one you or you're parents were raised in, you're parent(s) will play just as big an influence as the society itself. There are plenty of people in the US whose parents are from who another country who still live based on the culture of that country. No matter how much time you spend out in the world and in school, it is still you're parents who have the biggest influence on how you'll grow up.

 

[JarodRussell]

I'm sorry but I've got to go with Christopher here. Even when you leave in a society that differs from the one you or you're parents were raised in, you're parent(s) will play just as big an influence as the society itself. There are plenty of people in the US whose parents are from who another country who still live based on the culture of that country. No matter how much time you spend out in the world and in school, it is still you're parents who have the biggest influence on how you'll grow up.

Immigrant kids always adapt to the culture much better than their parents, because they go to school, because they spend time with the "local" kids, because they are engulfed by the local media. Most of the time it is even the case that only the kids can speak the official language (and that fluently) while the parents can't even order a coffee.

And then again, Spock had a Vulcan father, and, as far as I know, was solely surrounded by Vulcans. So unless his human mother made some major mistakes he shouldn't have had any problems.

Kids who are bullied show signs of weakness. That's how it starts. They stop being bullied when they show they are equal. And Spock was equal to all other Vulcans, as I said before. So in order to give them a reason to bully him (which is, I repeat, not only totally illogical but also contrary to their whole philosophy) he must have been pretty emotional.

So I again ask, what the hell did Amanda do to him that he had problems controlling his emotions?

 

[Nerys Myk]

I assume McCoy was referring to microscopic elements is Spock's blood that would be toxic to a full Vulcan and not the color.

Spock's problems seem to stem from the Vulcans' attitude towards him being only half Vulcan. He has no friends and his father is distant and disapproving. So him being a "momma's boy" isn't surprising.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Solok was one man who was intrigued by Sisko's behavior. He was so logical that he studied him permanently, and that was what made Sisko angry beyond belief. He was arrogant, but not racist. In the end it also became clear that by "human" he actually meant to say "emotional". So he put logic over emotions. That's about philosophies, but not about race. Sisko was totally illogical and only emotional when he wanted to win a game against physically superior Vulcans.

Jarod Russel, now you're just trying to rewrite the episode.

It was directly established that Solok's hobby was writing essays declaring the superiority of vulcans over humans, of logic over emotions.
THAT'S RACISM.
That baseball game - Solok only trained its crew in the game and challenged Sisko in order to again show how 'superior' vulcans are, to 'rub it in'; definitely NOT in order to study something.

 

[JarodRussell]

Solok was one man who was intrigued by Sisko's behavior. He was so logical that he studied him permanently, and that was what made Sisko angry beyond belief. He was arrogant, but not racist. In the end it also became clear that by "human" he actually meant to say "emotional". So he put logic over emotions. That's about philosophies, but not about race. Sisko was totally illogical and only emotional when he wanted to win a game against physically superior Vulcans.

Jarod Russel, now you're just trying to rewrite the episode.

It was directly established that Solok's hobby was writing essays declaring the superiority of vulcans over humans, of logic over emotions.
THAT'S RACISM.
That baseball game - Solok only trained its crew in the game and challenged Sisko in order to again show how 'superior' vulcans are, to 'rub it in'; definitely NOT in order to study something.

Well, the Vulcans ARE superior, both physically and mentally. Solok told Sisko that he was playing the game, knowing that Sisko couldn't resist to get into another match because Sisko just couldn't live with the fact that Solok was right, and that he not only was right about it, but that he constantly mentioned it every time he saw Sisko.

Basically, the relationship between Sisko and Solok is similar to the relationship between me and Christopher. Every time he points out when I am factually wrong, he is of course right, but I don't like it, and I think he is an arrogant smartass when he does that (I am sorry to be so direct again, but I'm trying to make a point here). Sisko felt the same way about Solok. Solok was not being racist. Racism is irrational, it is based on lies, false knowledge and insecurity. Solok was being rational, true to the facts, and was not insecure. What happens in the end of the episode? The Vulcans won the game by a lightyear. And Sisko celebrated a manufactured triumph. Solok went away when he realized that Sisko just wouldn't get it and didn't even want to get it. Same thing happens when I annoy Christopher with something, he just stops talking to me about it.

The Vulcans in TAS and the new movie were being irrational, including the Vulcans in the Science Academy Council. They called Spock's mother a whore and a disadvantage, two things that are blatant lies, and accused Spock of having an emotional need to rebel, which was just another sign of irrational prejudice against him.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Kids who are bullied show signs of weakness. That's how it starts. They stop being bullied when they show they are equal.

No, bullies can pick a victim where there is actually no weakness shown by the victim, just one the bullies perceive to be there. That is why it's very hard for a victim to do anything about the bullying problem alone.

Bullying only stops when the target - and the community of people around the victim - all agree to show a united front that bullying is not to be tolerated. Otherwise the bullies just select a new victim.

The Vulcans in TAS and the new movie were being irrational, including the Vulcans in the Science Academy Council.

And what of T'Pau's seeming disdain of all things human in "Amok Time"? Was she irrational, too?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

JarodRussell:
"Well, the Vulcans ARE superior, both physically and mentally."

So, your argument has become - vulcans are racists, but they are right to be racists because thay're superior according to any criterion worth mentioning.

I agree that many vulcans are racists; I disagree that vulcans are superior:

Physically, they're stronger - on average. Still, by the 24th century - or even now - that hardly counts as superiority by any criterion worth mentioning. Bears are hardly humanity's superiors.


Mentally, they can do x operations per second. Well, a pocket calculator can do the same. Is it superior to a human mind?

What about the rest - about what really matters? The vulcan passive mentality 'if the chance is low enough don't even try' proved inferior again and again to the human 'never say never approach'.
Vulcans needed 1000 years to rise from the ashes of their wars and reach the stars. Humans did the same in a 100 years.
With all their logic, vulcans have been warring with neighbouring species (andorians, etc) for centuries when humans came. Humans brought these antagonistic species together in a prosperous alliance almost instantly.
More often than not, vulcans prove themselves to be arrogant or even racist. NOT a 'superior' state of mind.
And I could go on.

 

[JarodRussell]

And what of T'Pau's seeming disdain of all things human in "Amok Time"?

What did she say in that episode?

Bullying only stops when the target - and the community of people around the victim - all agree to show a united front that bullying is not to be tolerated. Otherwise the bullies just select a new victim.

So you do agree that one can get rid of a bully? If the bully picks a new victim isn't really that important for the old victim, or for my point.
How do you show that you do not tolerate bullying? By showing strength? Which is what I meant.

JarodRussell:
"Well, the Vulcans ARE superior, both physically and mentally."

So, your argument has become - vulcans are racists, but they are right to be racists because thay're superior according to any criterion worth mentioning.

You stopped reading after that line, didn't you? I know you did, because I know that this is not my argument.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

JarodRussell

The rest of your post made even less sense.

Solok did not 'went away'. He couldn't stand it that their emotions enabled the DS9 crew to derive joy from the game, that their emotions proved better than his logic in this respect. He even lost his composure when talking to Odo - a great deal, considering vulcan control. Racists often react irritated/violently when their prejudices are proven wrong.

And "Well, the Vulcans ARE superior, both physically and mentally.", "Solok was not being racist. Racism is irrational, it is based on lies, false knowledge and insecurity. Solok was being rational, true to the facts, and was not insecure." WAS YOUR ARGUMENT, Jarod Russell.

 

[JarodRussell]

And "Well, the Vulcans ARE superior, both physically and mentally.", "Solok was not being racist. Racism is irrational, it is based on lies, false knowledge and insecurity. Solok was being rational, true to the facts, and was not insecure." WAS YOUR ARGUMENT, Jarod Russell.

Yes, I know, I recognize it. Looks good.

Solok did not 'went away'. He couldn't stand it that their emotions enabled the DS9 crew to derive joy from the game, that their emotions proved better than his logic in this respect. He even lost his composure when talking to Odo - a great deal, considering vulcan control. Racists often react irritated/violently when their prejudices are proven wrong.

The way I see it, he lost composure because of this overwhelmingly illogical behavior of everyone running on the playing field, disturbing the game. He was irritated. How many times were Spock or Tuvok being irritated by irrational behavior of McCoy or Neelix? Are Spock and Tuvok racists because of that? I don't think so.



Btw. I really love the evolution of this thread. Plus point of this board that it allows discussions to evolve naturally.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Well, Spock's blood in "Journey to Babel" comes to mind immediately:

CHAPEL: It isn't true Vulcan blood either. It has human blood elements in it.
SPOCK: It should be possible to filter out the human factors.

You know, that is a line from the friggin' 60s. Back then, people thought masturbation causes blindness and black people had different blood than white people.

Um, you know that's a crap analogy seeing as humans and vulcan ARE DIFFERENT SPECIES! So yes Vulcans and Humans have different blood. Spock is half-human so anyone who isn't dense could figure that their would be differences between his blood and a full blooded Vulcan. Also we're talking about stuff in TOS not TNG, theres a frikkin century between the two so yes things would change and no TNG stuff doesn't retroactively mean TOS had the same things.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

JarodRussell

"Yes, I know, I recognize it. Looks good."
Until you blatantly contradict yourself in your next post. This vulcan racism issue really got to you, didn't it? What I find surprising is that you never once observed the obvious vulcan racism until now - your rosy couloured glasses must be truly potent.
I already posted counterarguments above - to which you failed to answer.

About Solok - I already said, JarodRussell, you are trying to rewrite the episode.
Solok was irritated he was failing (not the game, but his purpose there) - he came there with the express purpose of humiliating Sisko, demonstrating his superiority. Solok won the baseball game, failed to achieve his true purpose.

 

[JarodRussell]

Well, Spock's blood in "Journey to Babel" comes to mind immediately:

You know, that is a line from the friggin' 60s. Back then, people thought masturbation causes blindness and black people had different blood than white people.

Um, you know that's a crap analogy seeing as humans and vulcan ARE DIFFERENT SPECIES! So yes Vulcans and Humans have different blood. Spock is half-human so anyone who isn't dense could figure that their would be differences between his blood and a full blooded Vulcan.

If you managed to cross a bird with a dog, would there be a half-bird/half-dog side, with the bird-dog being in constant struggle whether he should start barking or tweeting?

I'm not the only one who says that genetics being the result of Spock's problems is a ridiculous idea.

Also we're talking about stuff in TOS not TNG, theres a frikkin century between the two so yes things would change and no TNG stuff doesn't retroactively mean TOS had the same things.

The characteristics of the Vulcan species would change dramatically in less than a century?

Until you blatantly contradict yourself in your next post. This vulcan racism issue really got to you, didn't it? What I find surprising is that you never once observed the obvious vulcan racism until now - your rosy couloured glasses must be truly potent.

LOL, now you're just trying to pick up a fight. Why did I never complain about the Vulcan racism before? What kind of question is that? Because I simply didn't bother to do it before? Do I need to open a new thread for everything that MIGHT eventually come up in some other discussion? You are weird.

I already posted counterarguments above - to which you failed to answer.

Do you mean these?

I agree that many vulcans are racists; I disagree that vulcans are superior:

Physically, they're stronger - on average. Still, by the 24th century - or even now - that hardly counts as superiority by any criterion worth mentioning. Bears are hardly humanity's superiors.

Wasn't it a sports game they were playing? In which physical superiority counts? If they were to test something else, they would have done something else.
And I'd suggest you meet up with a bear in the woods and rethink your thoughts about him being hardly your superior. Of course he's not a rocket scientist, but in that situation, it makes no difference.

Mentally, they can do x operations per second. Well, a pocket calculator can do the same. Is it superior to a human mind?

Can a pocket calculator paint a picture? No. But can it calculate the square root of Pi much faster than the human brain? Yes. It is superior in this regard.

What about the rest - about what really matters? The vulcan passive mentality 'if the chance is low enough don't even try' proved inferior again and again to the human 'never say never approach'.
Vulcans needed 1000 years to rise from the ashes of their wars and reach the stars. Humans did the same in a 100 years.
With all their logic, vulcans have been warring with neighbouring species (andorians, etc) for centuries when humans came. Humans brought these antagonistic species together in a prosperous alliance almost instantly.
More often than not, vulcans prove themselves to be arrogant or even racist. NOT a 'superior' state of mind.

That didn't matter at all to Sisko or Solok. If it mattered, it would have not been about a Baseball game. Solok took Sisko's game to show him that even in his beloved "human" game Vulcans were superior.

About Solok - I already said, JarodRussell, you are trying to rewrite the episode.
Solok was irritated he was failing (not the game, but his purpose there) - he came there with the express purpose of humiliating Sisko, demonstrating his superiority. Solok won the baseball game, failed to achieve his true purpose.

And you didn't get my Me-vs-Christopher analogy. What is Christopher aiming at when he corrects me? To annoy me? Hell no. To show me that I'm wrong? Hell yes. And if I refuse to get it, he refuses to continue.




Here, taken from Memory Alpha:

Solok attended Starfleet Academy in the same class as Benjamin Sisko, and was well known for pointing out the fallibility of emotions and what he believed to be the superiority of Vulcan discipline.

Am I racist in telling you that you should do some anger management because otherwise you would be inefficient in what you do?

According to Sisko, he and Solok first tangled at the Launching Pad, a popular meeting place for cadets, when Solok arrived with several other Vulcan cadets and announced that they were studying "illogical Human bonding rituals". Sisko, drunk and annoyed, first tried to debate the relative merits of emotion versus logic with Solok, then challenged him to a wrestling match. Sisko lost. Afterward, Solok frequently reminded Sisko of their match. The Vulcan singled out the human cadet on campus and wrote five psychology papers about the wrestling match.

Solok frequently reminding Sisko how he humiliated himself is ugly, but not racist. He was still being logical, writing psychology papers. In Starfleet. So apparently, his papers were okay, no insults, no racist undertones (otherwise Sisko would have been able to demand that Sovok rejected the papers). It's like every time Spock points out something about McCoy, or Tuvok about Neelix. Solok was fascinated by human behavior, "taunting" him in the most logical way without ever getting insulting. He was not discriminating him, he was not prejudiced. He was merely comparing them both, and Sisko was annoyed by the fact that he was right and could not prove him wrong.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

You know, that is a line from the friggin' 60s. Back then, people thought masturbation causes blindness and black people had different blood than white people.

Um, you know that's a crap analogy seeing as humans and vulcan ARE DIFFERENT SPECIES! So yes Vulcans and Humans have different blood. Spock is half-human so anyone who isn't dense could figure that their would be differences between his blood and a full blooded Vulcan.

If you managed to cross a bird with a dog, would there be a half-bird/half-dog side, with the bird-dog being in constant struggle whether he should start barking or tweeting?

I'm not the only one who says that genetics being the result of Spock's problems is a ridiculous idea.

I'm not arguing about culture and behavior differences I'm saying that some one who is biologically mixed between two different species from two different planets is going to be biologically different from either of the two species he's descended from seeing as he has genetic material from both not just one like you seem to think reproduction dosen't work that way.

Also we're talking about stuff in TOS not TNG, theres a frikkin century between the two so yes things would change and no TNG stuff doesn't retroactively mean TOS had the same things.

The characteristics of the Vulcan species would change dramatically in less than a century?

Well considering that 100 years ago slavery was okay to it being seen as wrong today I would say yes.

 

[kkozoriz1]

It's interesting how often Spock was told to get in touch with his human feelings. in TOS, how often did anyone speak well of his Vulcan half? For that matter, how often were Vulcans spoken of, as a race, as having worthwhile qualities? T'Pau was noted as being a poweful person and Sarek was admired as a diplomat but how often did people speak well of teh Vulcan people?

 

[David cgc]

And what of T'Pau's seeming disdain of all things human in "Amok Time"?

What did she say in that episode?

I thought she seemed fairly respectful of Kirk and McCoy, but there was the one line, when Spock tried to have her prevent T'Pring from choosing Kirk as her champion. "It is said thy Vulcan blood is thin. Are thee Vulcan or are thee human?"

Beyond that, though, as long as the humans behaved with decorum in the ceremony, she was fine with them. She even let Kirk be medicated so he could participate more fully.

It's interesting how often Spock was told to get in touch with his human feelings. in TOS, how often did anyone speak well of his Vulcan half? For that matter, how often were Vulcans spoken of, as a race, as having worthwhile qualities? T'Pau was noted as being a poweful person and Sarek was admired as a diplomat but how often did people speak well of teh Vulcan people?

In "Encounter at Farpoint," Data said Vulcans were generally considered to be "advanced" and "honorable." McCoy agreed with him, but added they were also damned annoying on occasion.