725m Enterprise

[F. King Daniel]

The Kelvin shuttles may have wanted to get further from the star's gravitational field before jumping to warp.

Otherwise we may have had 40something little wormholes splattering 800 people to paste.

 

[blssdwlf]

I don't think this would be a factor. Spock would scan for the known locations of the outposts, and either see intact asteroids there or then not. If not, then he might read dust and debris (and might have missed said dust and debris if he hadn't already been focusing on a particular spot). So big asteroids disappearing could well be a very different story from small starships disappearing.

Ah, I was commenting that it wasn't the "conversion" that allowed the debris to be spotted but the Enterprise was just able to look and see the debris (even tiny dust.) I see no reason why in TOS that they couldn't use that to examine spaceship debris if they looked We'll just have to see how the production group from ST:XI/XII handle it in their movies.

One of the common things that happened in TOS (that I don't recall seeing in TNG or later) is the ship's sensors (at warp usually) picking up something in its path and snapping on the deflectors and activating the red blinking light.

Yes - and this activity taking our heroes by surprise. More often than not (say, in both of the pilot episodes) they couldn't find out what had triggered the auto-shields even after the fact...

The key point (and difference between TOS and STXI) is that they still had a significant amount of time to react. The surprise for them is only that something very far ahead triggered their deflectors. That runs counter to an "Alderaan situation" that you suggested earlier as that requires in TOS for them to just drop into a location with unexpected terrain and not see it in advance.

IMHO, sensor capabilities can't be generalized between all the series. There are differences between TOS and what came after and there might be even differences between AbramsTrek and TNG sensors (but I'm not that familiar with TNG to be sure )

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The difference between the changes that have been made throughout the history of Trek up to now and what they did in STXI is that previous Trek followed a forward progression of time and technology within its own universe.

Except for, like, the Klingons.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Besides, if all six warp cores had exploded within seconds of each other, there wouldn't have BEEN a debris field for Enterprise to fly trough, the massive blast of energy would have vaporized all six ships and probably a good chunk of Vulcan along with them.

Hmm - maybe, maybe not. Wouldn't the Kelvin sacrificing herself in the beginning and throw her warp core in along the explosion?

No, because in Contangion we are told that warp cores are designed NOT to do that unless a lot of things go incredibly fundamentally wrong. Even the TMP Enterprise didn't breach its core when the entire ship self destructed and crash landed on Genesis.

Basically, on any ship OTHER than the Enterprise-D, it's not something that normally happens by accident.

We sort of have if you count TOS-R.

No simply because the production crew/management that did these effects for TOS-R are the same for TNG.[/quote]
So what? They were the same that did the effects for TWOK through Nemesis.

Or that the TFF and TSFS warp escapes are what an exterior camera would have seen if they were in TOS "The Balance of Terror" and "The Enterprise Incident".

For that matter, the same can be said for the TNG warp escapes.

So I guess TNG is pretty similar to TOS after all.

 

[Gepard]

The difference between the changes that have been made throughout the history of Trek up to now and what they did in STXI is that previous Trek followed a forward progression of time and technology within its own universe.

Except for, like, the Klingons.

And all of Enterprise.

 

[blssdwlf]

No, because in Contangion we are told that warp cores are designed NOT to do that unless a lot of things go incredibly fundamentally wrong. Even the TMP Enterprise didn't breach its core when the entire ship self destructed and crash landed on Genesis.

Or perhaps a core breach isn't as explosive as the E-Ds?

Basically, on any ship OTHER than the Enterprise-D, it's not something that normally happens by accident.

LOL

So what? They were the same that did the effects for TWOK through Nemesis.

Huh? Are you referring to Mike Okuda or ignoring that they ignored the dialogue when making their version of the FX? There were already mistakes in the old TOS effects and TOS-R introduced their own set of "mistakes and differences" creating their own continuity.

Or that the TFF and TSFS warp escapes are what an exterior camera would have seen if they were in TOS "The Balance of Terror" and "The Enterprise Incident".

For that matter, the same can be said for the TNG warp escapes.

So I guess TNG is pretty similar to TOS after all.

Sure, as far as going to warp

So anything in TNG like the Reliant-Enterprise or the V'Ger-Enterprise encounter? Or the warping away from Earth to do the time warp?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

So anything in TNG like the Reliant-Enterprise or the V'Ger-Enterprise encounter? Or the warping away from Earth to do the time warp?

As for the first--where two ships detect each other at warp an then slow to impulse power to meet up--There is Enterprise' rendezvous with the Phoenix in "The Wounded," and various rendezvous with other starships throughout TNG's history (the Hood, the Victory, the Pagh, the Bortas, etc).

For the second, every single "jump to warp" scene starting with "Encounter at Farpoint" has the dynamics of the TSFS/TFF effect, though in those cases it's "flash of light-speed away" as opposed to "speed away on a streak of light" as in the movies.

Interestingly, you may note that the final scene of STXI where Enterprise jumps to warp (leaving the camera behind) is incredibly similar to the final scene in TVH where Enterprise-A jumps to warp for the first time.

 

[blssdwlf]

So anything in TNG like the Reliant-Enterprise or the V'Ger-Enterprise encounter? Or the warping away from Earth to do the time warp?

As for the first--where two ships detect each other at warp an then slow to impulse power to meet up--There is Enterprise' rendezvous with the Phoenix in "The Wounded," and various rendezvous with other starships throughout TNG's history (the Hood, the Victory, the Pagh, the Bortas, etc).

Just so we're on the same page, when the Enterprise meets up with the Reliant, the Enterprise is going forward and the Reliant is basically going backwards when they meet. Since they met head on at warp and then slowed to impulse, its a bit unique in how the Reliant ended up going backwards as it closed with the Enterprise.

This is also similar to the Enterprise-V'ger encounter and presumably Klingon-V'ger encounter where the Enterprise and the Klingons are basically maneuvering around V'ger while it is projected at current speed to make it to Earth in a few days.

*Now I do recall seeing in Voyager and perhaps even DS9 something where a ship at warp is attacked by another ship maneuvering around it at very close range. I just don't recall anything quite like that except maybe in "The Wounded".

For the second, every single "jump to warp" scene starting with "Encounter at Farpoint" has the dynamics of the TSFS/TFF effect, though in those cases it's "flash of light-speed away" as opposed to "speed away on a streak of light" as in the movies.

I wasn't referring to "jump to warp" as the 2nd example instead the maneuvering at warp interaction.

Interestingly, you may note that the final scene of STXI where Enterprise jumps to warp (leaving the camera behind) is incredibly similar to the final scene in TVH where Enterprise-A jumps to warp for the first time.

Sure, like I said before, going to warp can be similar since TOS never depicted it from an exterior camera shot. I would think they all would share some features like "relatively standing still to off they go!" It's usually what happens once they go to warp that the differences start to show up.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

So anything in TNG like the Reliant-Enterprise or the V'Ger-Enterprise encounter? Or the warping away from Earth to do the time warp?

As for the first--where two ships detect each other at warp an then slow to impulse power to meet up--There is Enterprise' rendezvous with the Phoenix in "The Wounded," and various rendezvous with other starships throughout TNG's history (the Hood, the Victory, the Pagh, the Bortas, etc).

Just so we're on the same page, when the Enterprise meets up with the Reliant, the Enterprise is going forward and the Reliant is basically going backwards when they meet. Since they met head on at warp and then slowed to impulse, its a bit unique in how the Reliant ended up going backwards as it closed with the Enterprise.

Um... no, they met head on, going opposite directions, and BOTH slowed to impulse power moving towards each other. Thus in our very first view of Khan's bridge in that scene we hear Khan say "Slow to one half impulse power... let's be friends!" followed by Sulu saying "Reliant in our sector, this quadrant... and slowing!"

This is also similar to the Enterprise-V'ger encounter and presumably Klingon-V'ger encounter where the Enterprise and the Klingons are basically maneuvering around V'ger while it is projected at current speed to make it to Earth in a few days.

Right. Presumably they entered V'ger's warp field and adjusted their engine output accordingly.

Now I do recall seeing in Voyager and perhaps even DS9 something where a ship at warp is attacked by another ship maneuvering around it at very close range. I just don't recall anything quite like that except maybe in "The Wounded".

In The Wounded it is never made clear whether the Phoenix and its Cardassian opponents are traveling at warp or impulse, but given the distances involved I would bet warp.

The scene you seem to be thinking of is "Treachery, Faith and the Great River" where Odo takes on a Jem'hadar fighter in a runabout. Both ships are at warp; Odo slides up and behind the Jem'hadar and nails it in a weak spot with his phasers, all without ever slowing down.

For the second, every single "jump to warp" scene starting with "Encounter at Farpoint" has the dynamics of the TSFS/TFF effect, though in those cases it's "flash of light-speed away" as opposed to "speed away on a streak of light" as in the movies.

I wasn't referring to "jump to warp" as the 2nd example instead the maneuvering at warp interaction.

So was I, at least the totality thereof. Remember, in "Encounter at Farpoint" Enterprise-D makes a high speed 180 degree banking turn before jumping to warp, and later makes a 180 degree turn while still AT warp to fly at Q head on.

Sure, like I said before, going to warp can be similar since TOS never depicted it from an exterior camera shot. I would think they all would share some features like "relatively standing still to off they go!" It's usually what happens once they go to warp that the differences start to show up.

I would severely doubt this for TOS' case. Especially recalling in, for example, The Corbomite Manuever where Balok's marker buoy is hanging about a hundred meters off Enterprise' bow and Kirk orders "warp one!" to get away from it. We hear the engines powering up, we see Sulu work the controls, and yet the glowy cube on the screen not only doesn't budge, seconds later we get a read from Bailey: "Now fifty seven meters!" This after Enterprise has apparently already accelerated to warp three.

There's no mention of a tractor beam or anything of that kind in this scene (as there was later when the Fesarius locked onto them) so the implication is that the cube was following them and matching their acceleration. This is in nearly every way consistent with the way TOS depicted warp drive in the entirety of the series: slightly faster than impulse.

Which means pretty much any way you slice it STXI isn't going to be in any way consistent with TOS, because no other Trek production was. Ever since TWOK, the depiction of warp speed has given it as being much faster EVEN AT LOW WARP than any other flight mode; the singular exception is TMP, not because warp drive is depicted as slow, but because impulse power is depicted as un-fucking believably fast (where in subsequent productions, with only a handful of exceptions, impulse power covers any speed between about 60 and 300 mph).

 

[blssdwlf]

Just so we're on the same page, when the Enterprise meets up with the Reliant, the Enterprise is going forward and the Reliant is basically going backwards when they meet. Since they met head on at warp and then slowed to impulse, its a bit unique in how the Reliant ended up going backwards as it closed with the Enterprise.

Um... no, they met head on, going opposite directions, and BOTH slowed to impulse power moving towards each other. Thus in our very first view of Khan's bridge in that scene we hear Khan say "Slow to one half impulse power... let's be friends!" followed by Sulu saying "Reliant in our sector, this quadrant... and slowing!"

Pay attention to the motion of the stars on viewscreens as they are approaching. On the Enterprise the stars and the Reliant are heading towards the Enterprise. On the Reliant, the stars are heading *away* from the Reliant as they are closing on the Enterprise. It is also noticeable when both ships are shown relative to each other as the stars are still moving along with the Enterprise as the Reliant passes on the first attack.

Right. Presumably they entered V'ger's warp field and adjusted their engine output accordingly.

Or they could've just maneuvered at warp relative to V'ger like the probe in "The Corbomite Maneuver" or the cloud in "The Lights of Zetar".

In The Wounded it is never made clear whether the Phoenix and its Cardassian opponents are traveling at warp or impulse, but given the distances involved I would bet warp.

The scene you seem to be thinking of is "Treachery, Faith and the Great River" where Odo takes on a Jem'hadar fighter in a runabout. Both ships are at warp; Odo slides up and behind the Jem'hadar and nails it in a weak spot with his phasers, all without ever slowing down.

Might be. I assume all this occurs at close range (with the exception of "The Wounded" which I fondly remember )?

I wasn't referring to "jump to warp" as the 2nd example instead the maneuvering at warp interaction.

So was I, at least the totality thereof. Remember, in "Encounter at Farpoint" Enterprise-D makes a high speed 180 degree banking turn before jumping to warp, and later makes a 180 degree turn while still AT warp to fly at Q head on.

You know, I always thought they dropped out of warp, turned and rejumped back in. Now I'll have to watch it again.

Sure, like I said before, going to warp can be similar since TOS never depicted it from an exterior camera shot. I would think they all would share some features like "relatively standing still to off they go!" It's usually what happens once they go to warp that the differences start to show up.

I would severely doubt this for TOS' case. Especially recalling in, for example, The Corbomite Manuever where Balok's marker buoy is hanging about a hundred meters off Enterprise' bow and Kirk orders "warp one!" to get away from it. We hear the engines powering up, we see Sulu work the controls, and yet the glowy cube on the screen not only doesn't budge, seconds later we get a read from Bailey: "Now fifty seven meters!" This after Enterprise has apparently already accelerated to warp three.

And why can't an advanced probe be able to accelerate to warp along with the Enterprise and hold position next to it?

Which means pretty much any way you slice it STXI isn't going to be in any way consistent with TOS, because no other Trek production was. Ever since TWOK, the depiction of warp speed has given it as being much faster EVEN AT LOW WARP than any other flight mode;

Well I wouldn't say "no other Trek production" as the first 5-6 movies were very close.

Take a look at what Warp 5 looks like in TWOK (theatrical version) at 41m32s. That looks like something right out of TOS. Or the reverse view at 1h35m23s.

There are some external shots of the ship zipping by a slow/stationary cam with the nifty light trail on the ship, but the ship visually went no faster than portrayed in TOS.

I think the only time you might notice things "faster" are in ST:VI's viewscreen shots while at warp where you can definitely see elongated star streaks.

And of course anything after ST:VI is TNG territory...

the singular exception is TMP, not because warp drive is depicted as slow, but because impulse power is depicted as un-fucking believably fast (where in subsequent productions, with only a handful of exceptions, impulse power covers any speed between about 60 and 300 mph).

Why is that a problem? TOS has implied that before warp drive, impulse was the only way to travel. Even Sulu was taking a stroll down memory lane going with the Excelsior going home on impulse

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Pay attention to the motion of the stars on viewscreens as they are approaching. On the Enterprise the stars and the Reliant are heading towards the Enterprise. On the Reliant, the stars are heading *away* from the Reliant as they are closing on the Enterprise.

I just watched that scene a few days ago. The stars don't appear to be moving at all except in the exterior views.

It is also noticeable when both ships are shown relative to each other as the stars are still moving along with the Enterprise as the Reliant passes on the first attack.

Yes... again, EXTERIOR view. This appears to be because the scene is shot with Enterprise as the primary element and Reliant as secondary. Rather interesting to note that any any speed below about two million times the speed of light "the stars" should not appear to be moving at all.

Or they could've just maneuvered at warp relative to V'ger like the probe in "The Corbomite Maneuver" or the cloud in "The Lights of Zetar".

No, because on multiple occasions Kirk has Sulu move Enterprise relative to V'ger using thrusters only.

Might be. I assume all this occurs at close range?

In "Treachery" it's something like one to two hundred meters.

And why can't an advanced probe be able to accelerate to warp along with the Enterprise and hold position next to it?

Because it wasn't holding position next to it. It was moving towards Enterprise a few meters at a time, apparently with the intention of crashing into the Enterprise. Clearly it was capable of overtaking Enterprise, but only JUST, even at warp power.

That means that for the purposes of this episode, "warp three" is unit of velocity of such a magnitude that a slightly faster space craft moving at, say, warp three point one would be closing on the Enterprise at a rate of around 5 meters per second.

Well I wouldn't say "no other Trek production" as the first 5-6 movies were very close.

With the exception of TMP, they were MUCH closer to TNG and later than they were to TOS.

Take a look at what Warp 5 looks like in TWOK (theatrical version) at 41m32s. That looks like something right out of TOS.

That's because it's stock footage from TMP. It is also the LAST time warp drive is depicted--in the films, at least--without the accompanying rainbow streaks.

There are some external shots of the ship zipping by a slow/stationary cam with the nifty light trail on the ship, but the ship visually went no faster than portrayed in TOS.

VISUALLY, it did. Even the TMP stock footage has the stars moving considerably faster than they did in any instance of TOS (not counting TOS, though). OTOH, the "stationary/moving" cam idea doesn't work here either, since even in TMP we see the warp-streak effect is implied (and in backstage material, just plain STATED) to be a result of the ship's acceleration to higher warp factors. This can be interpreted as a sped-up version of the TOS depiction with an FX twist, but it is the very last time the movies bear any similarity with the original series.

I think the only time you might notice things "faster" are in ST:VI's viewscreen shots while at warp where you can definitely see elongated star streaks.

You're forgetting the similar (not quite as fast) effect on Enterprise' viewer in TMP, just before they enter the wormhole. Also the rainbow streaks in TSFS and TVH accompanying both the ship's instantaneous acceleration and its passage through space. And FYI: those "elongated streaks" first appear in ST:V for the Klingon Bird of Prey approaching at warp speed.

Why is that a problem? TOS has implied that before warp drive, impulse was the only way to travel. Even Sulu was taking a stroll down memory lane going with the Excelsior going home on impulse

It's a problem because of the (not uniquely Star Trekian) notion that interstellar voyages CAN be accomplished with an engine that produces such whimpy acceleration. In the Trekiverse it seems that both the galaxy and the speed of light have themselves been compacted for dramatic purposes, therefore the same speed Kirk uses to pull away from Space dock (full impulse power) makes it possible to fly from Earth to Vulcan in a touch less than two hours.

In this regard at least, all Trek series have been totally consistent. It's in the implication of comparison velocities they have varied dramatically; indeed, there are moments in TOS where Our Heroes don't even bother to specify whether they're using warp or impulse engines, it's implied that whatever they're using for PRIMARY propulsion should answer the call "ahead slow" or "ahead one quarter."

 

[blssdwlf]

Pay attention to the motion of the stars on viewscreens as they are approaching. On the Enterprise the stars and the Reliant are heading towards the Enterprise. On the Reliant, the stars are heading *away* from the Reliant as they are closing on the Enterprise.

I just watched that scene a few days ago. The stars don't appear to be moving at all except in the exterior views.

Here is a combined screenshot to help you see the motion If you watched it a few days ago, you might not have been looking for it.

It is also noticeable when both ships are shown relative to each other as the stars are still moving along with the Enterprise as the Reliant passes on the first attack.

Yes... again, EXTERIOR view. This appears to be because the scene is shot with Enterprise as the primary element and Reliant as secondary. Rather interesting to note that any any speed below about two million times the speed of light "the stars" should not appear to be moving at all.

And why is this a problem as "the stars moving" no matter how fast was something very common to TOS?

No, because on multiple occasions Kirk has Sulu move Enterprise relative to V'ger using thrusters only.

Are you referring to the Enterprise's fly-over or when she has to disengage her warp drive once grabbed by V'ger's tractor beam? In either case it isn't unusual for thrust to be used while at warp:

"Court Martial" - the Enterprise is at Warp 1 in an ion storm and Kirk orders "1/3 more thrust".

"The Ultimate Computer" - M5 just accelerated to Warp 3 to attack the Woden. Kirk orders speed cut to Warp 1. Scotty replies, "Reverse thrusts will not engage..."

In "Treachery" it's something like one to two hundred meters.

Interesting. Thanks

Because it wasn't holding position next to it. It was moving towards Enterprise a few meters at a time, apparently with the intention of crashing into the Enterprise. Clearly it was capable of overtaking Enterprise, but only JUST, even at warp power.

It was started emitting radiation as well. I think you missed the point of the buoy. It stayed *in front* of the Enterprise as she accelerated forward at "half speed". Surely it could've just let itself get rammed. Instead it held a relative position in front of the Enterprise, sublight and at warp and closed slowly while emitting radiation to elicit a response from the Enterprise. If the buoy wanted to crash into the Enterprise it could of at any time.

That's because it's stock footage from TMP. It is also the LAST time warp drive is depicted--in the films, at least--without the accompanying rainbow streaks.

VISUALLY, it did. Even the TMP stock footage has the stars moving considerably faster than they did in any instance of TOS

Maybe, maybe not. I'll get back to you on this.

OTOH, the "stationary/moving" cam idea doesn't work here either, since even in TMP we see the warp-streak effect is implied (and in backstage material, just plain STATED) to be a result of the ship's acceleration to higher warp factors. This can be interpreted as a sped-up version of the TOS depiction with an FX twist, but it is the very last time the movies bear any similarity with the original series.

Have any similarity in what? Adding a light trail to the ship's motion still doesn't make it zip by the screen faster. Certainly in "The Voyage Home" the Klingon BOP moved no faster around the planets and solar system than the Enterprise did in TOS (I'd even argue it went slower than the E in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"). And I'm not sure you can really attribute that to TNG when the E-D doesn't do the light trail behind the engines except in the movies. The only easy comparison between TOS and the movies are from the bridge's viewscreen in how the stars are moving/streaking, IMO.

Why is that a problem? TOS has implied that before warp drive, impulse was the only way to travel. Even Sulu was taking a stroll down memory lane going with the Excelsior going home on impulse

It's a problem because of the (not uniquely Star Trekian) notion that interstellar voyages CAN be accomplished with an engine that produces such whimpy acceleration. In the Trekiverse it seems that both the galaxy and the speed of light have themselves been compacted for dramatic purposes, therefore the same speed Kirk uses to pull away from Space dock (full impulse power) makes it possible to fly from Earth to Vulcan in a touch less than two hours.

Well, impulse is only wimpy after ST:VI They use go interstellar back in TOS with only impulse. As far as the 2 hour bit, where are you getting that from?