Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Merge]

[Denny_Crane]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Me

Having followed another franchise that deals with numerous alternate realities, Star Trek Xl seem to clearly not be an alternate reality. I have read how the date issues could be explained away and so on. But at its core, Star Trek Xl, to me, has replaced the original timeline. I just finished watching it again on DVD, and if you set aside all of the nit picks and so on, it just feels like your basic time travel story. Guy from future goes back in time, changes past. And while most of the time they change it back, it did not happen here and this is the Trek that we will have from here on out (until the next reboot?)

 

[Devon]

Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

The Spock in STXI didn't remind me of the original Spock.

Which version of the original Spock are you referring to?

Hmm. Odd.

The one from the original TOS universe. Hmmm. Odd that you didn't pick up on that.

Which one? The one that smiled and laughed early on? The one who was playing an emotional teeter totter with his vulcan/human emotions? The one who got angrier as the movies went on? The whole "He doesn't remind me of the original series Spock" is just more of one's own personal commentary on Nimoy's acting considering Spock transitioned throughout the "TOS Universe."

Yep. Quite a few, actually.

Still equates to no one.

You really need to read some of these threads you post in instead of attempting to bait me into some kind of argument. It's getting pretty old.

There is no argument.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Me

So the Nerada goes through the blackhole and destroys the Kelvin - from that momment on we are seeing an alternate reality. When Spock travels back why does he end up in that reality? essentially he has shifted dimension aswell as time travel - shouldnt he of just emerged in the 23rd century of his own universe/timeline??

We don't know what the rules are. Maybe this black hole leads to an alternate universe and a different time, whereas others just lead to an alternate universe/same time, or same universe/different time.

Black holes work however sci fi writers want them to work.

Star Trek Xl seem to clearly not be an alternate reality.

The writers had the crew stand around and recite lines whose sole purpose was transparently to communicate to the audience that, yes, THIS IS AN ALTERNATE REALITY. The crew should not be able to know that, because there is no way to tell the difference between alternate reality and a changed timeline within your own reality, when you are "inside" the timeline/reality.

So the conversation was nonsensical in the context of the movie and could only have existed to inform the audience of the writers' intention. The whole thing was handled in such a ham-handed manner - it took me right outta the movie - that I'm amazed so many people missed it. How much bigger of a sledgehammer did you want the writers to use, anyway?

And while most of the time they change it back, it did not happen here and this is the Trek that we will have from here on out (until the next reboot?)

Yes, this is what we'll have from here on out, because it's not time travel. They're in a different universe and nobody knows how to get back to the original. And only Spock would want to get back, since everyone else is already in their original universe, and I doubt we'll see Nimoy in subsequent movies.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Me

A refresher on the movie's intent:

Nero went back in time from 2387 (8 years after Star Trek Nemesis) to 2233. Despite updated visuals this 2233 is supposed to be, up until the "lightning storm" that diverted the Kelvin, the same timeline as TOS/TNG and the rest. By altering events Nero created an alternate timeline. It's that alternate timeline that Spock Prime emerged into in 2258.

In 2258 the Enterprise crew realized they're in an alternate timeline because Nero's (who was never supposed to be there) actions had changed all their lives. The reason it's alternate is simply because it's not the way history is "meant" to be (which is the TOS timeline, itself the result of endless time-tampering during Enterprise).

Makes sense to me.

 

[Denny_Crane]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Me

Star Trek Xl seem to clearly not be an alternate reality.

The writers had the crew stand around and recite lines whose sole purpose was transparently to communicate to the audience that, yes, THIS IS AN ALTERNATE REALITY. The crew should not be able to know that, because there is no way to tell the difference between alternate reality and a changed timeline within your own reality, when you are "inside" the timeline/reality.

So the conversation was nonsensical in the context of the movie and could only have existed to inform the audience of the writers' intention. The whole thing was handled in such a ham-handed manner - it took me right outta the movie - that I'm amazed so many people missed it. How much bigger of a sledgehammer did you want the writers to use, anyway?

I think you missed the point of her saying that. Uhura only said it was an alternate reality in reference to Spocks comment that the past HAD been changed. That Nero would not know the events that would take place because reality had been altered. The past had been altered.

Also, there were I believe a couple other instances where they call it out as the past having been changed, not that this was a different reality. They said "Hey, your lives are different now" not "Hey, there is now another doppelganger running around"

And while most of the time they change it back, it did not happen here and this is the Trek that we will have from here on out (until the next reboot?)

Yes, this is what we'll have from here on out, because it's not time travel. They're in a different universe and nobody knows how to get back to the original. And only Spock would want to get back, since everyone else is already in their original universe, and I doubt we'll see Nimoy in subsequent movies.

Except that he didn't. Because he knows what's done is done. It would be better to rebuild his race then to try to maybe "fix" things.

A refresher on the movie's intent:

Nero went back in time from 2387 (8 years after Star Trek Nemesis) to 2233. Despite updated visuals this 2233 is supposed to be, up until the "lightning storm" that diverted the Kelvin, the same timeline as TOS/TNG and the rest. By altering events Nero created an alternate timeline. It's that alternate timeline that Spock Prime emerged into in 2258.

In 2258 the Enterprise crew realized they're in an alternate timeline because Nero's (who was never supposed to be there) actions had changed all their lives. The reason it's alternate is simply because it's not the way history is "meant" to be (which is the TOS timeline, itself the result of endless time-tampering during Enterprise).

Makes sense to me.

Exactly!

Plus, any change in the look can be attributed to a new creative team and/or change in technology. That is just one of the things you "accept" with franchises that span decades...

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

Which version of the original Spock are you referring to?

Hmm. Odd.

The one from the original TOS universe. Hmmm. Odd that you didn't pick up on that.

Which one? The one that smiled and laughed early on? The one who was playing an emotional teeter totter with his vulcan/human emotions? The one who got angrier as the movies went on? The whole "He doesn't remind me of the original series Spock" is just more of one's own personal commentary on Nimoy's acting considering Spock transitioned throughout the "TOS Universe."

Yeppers. You got it. It's a matter of opinion. As is your interpretation. My opinion is that NuOldSpock doesn't remind me of the Spock that I remember from TOS, the movies, and TNG. He seems too passive. NuOldSpock would rather let (the alternate universe version of) his planet die than try to find a way (and there are a multitude of them) to go back and fix what Nero did. Although he and Nero spoke of this alternate reality as if it were their actual past and present, NuOldSpock may have known he was in an alternate universe and that "his" Vulcan was alive and well in his original universe. But if so, why was he "emotionally compromized" by losing his planet - "I just lost my planet" is what he said. Anyway, TOS-Spock risked his life to go back in time to get a couple of whales to save Earth. Yet he just sits back and lets 'his' home planet go bye-bye while barely batting an eye. No, this ain't the Spock I know.

Yep. Quite a few, actually.

Still equates to no one.

According to you. Which really doesn't mean a whole lot.

You really need to read some of these threads you post in instead of attempting to bait me into some kind of argument. It's getting pretty old.

There is no argument.

Oh there's plenty. You just refuse to see it.

But, I'm not getting into this with you again. Your sole purpose here seems to be enticing me and others who don't share your opinions into arguing with you. I'm not here to argue. I'm here to discuss. If you can't contribute to the discussion, then don't respond. Have a nice day.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

Yet he just sits back and lets 'his' home planet go bye-bye while barely batting an eye.

Except that isn't what happened, it's a rewrite. He was powerless to stop it from happening while marooned on Delta Vega, while he has the rest of his life to try and find it in another universe if that's to be seen as his motivation, and:

why was he "emotionally compromized" by losing his planet

Was he? Make up your mind.

No, this ain't the Spock I know.

Yes, the Spock appearing in your rewrite of STXI is indeed unrecognizable.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

My opinion is that NuOldSpock doesn't remind me of the Spock that I remember from TOS, the movies, and TNG.

The "Spock we know" believed that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. He would have wanted to save the larger number of lives threatened in the Abramsverse Federation before embarking on any quest to "save" Vulcan by traveling to a time in which it still existed. BasherSpok, on the other hand? Not so much. BasherSpok doesn't give a crap about those people. It's all about Vulcan with that guy.

I hate BasherSpok. Good thing he didn't appear in STXI.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

Yet he just sits back and lets 'his' home planet go bye-bye while barely batting an eye.

Except that isn't what happened, it's a rewrite. He was powerless to stop it from happening while marooned on Delta Vega, while he has the rest of his life to try and find it in another universe if that's to be seen as his motivation, and:

What rewrite? What are you talking about? True, he was powerless on NuDelta Hoth. But what about when he was rescued? He ended up back at Starfleet. He probably had access to all kinds of previously explored time travel devices. Yet he decided to just find a new planet upon which to establish a Vulcan colony instead of trying to right the wrong done by Nero. I think TOS-Spock would have at least tried.

why was he "emotionally compromized" by losing his planet

Was he? Make up your mind.

Yes. He was. IIRC, his exact words were: "I've just lost my planet. I can tell you, I am emotionally compromised."

That line gave the sense that NuOldSpock seemed to feel that NuVulcan was, indeed "his" Vulcan and not an alternate universe version of Vulcan.

No, this ain't the Spock I know.

Yes, the Spock appearing in your rewrite of STXI is indeed unrecognizable.

I still don't get the rewrite thing. I haven't rewritten anything. Where are you getting that from?

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

My opinion is that NuOldSpock doesn't remind me of the Spock that I remember from TOS, the movies, and TNG.

The "Spock we know" believed that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. He would have wanted to save the larger number of lives threatened in the Abramsverse Federation before embarking on any quest to "save" Vulcan by traveling to a time in which it still existed. BasherSpok, on the other hand? Not so much. BasherSpok doesn't give a crap about those people. It's all about Vulcan with that guy.

I hate BasherSpok. Good thing he didn't appear in STXI.

Yep. So why didn't NuOldSpock at least make some kind of effort to repair the damage done by Nero before it ever happened? We know from 40+ years of Star Trek that time travel is a frequently used tool to repair damage done by other time travellers. NuOldSpock had numerous resources at his disposal once he found his way back to Earth.

"BasherSpok"?

 

[ProwlAlpha]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Me

Why use that restart button? Oh yea, you hate everything about this film, including ranting about it other threads.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Me

Yep. I'm just a big ol' ranting person who rants...and stuff.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

What rewrite? What are you talking about?

Spock "letting" Nero do anything... Spock "barely batting an eye"... etc.

Yep. So why didn't NuOldSpock at least make some kind of effort to repair the damage done by Nero before it ever happened?

It's too late for that; from the POV of the Abramsverse inhabitants, it irrevocably happened. The most he could do would be to leave the Abramsverse and travel into the past, creating another branch. It's right there in the post you quoted: The "Spock we know" believed that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. He would have wanted to save the larger number of lives threatened in the Abramsverse Federation before embarking on any quest to "save" Vulcan by traveling to a time in which it still existed. This also applies to Spock's assumed responsibilities in the future of the Abramsverse. He could supposedly leave the Abramsverse, but to do so within the limited timeframe of STXI would be neglecting those responsibilities needlessly ( and, unlike the Spock we know, behaving selfishly and irrationally ). If traveling to the past is an option which is available to him, there is no ticking clock. He literally has all the time in the world.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

What rewrite? What are you talking about?

Spock "letting" Nero do anything... Spock "barely batting an eye"... etc.

That's not a "rewrite". It's simple observation based on what was seen on screen.

Yep. So why didn't NuOldSpock at least make some kind of effort to repair the damage done by Nero before it ever happened?

It's too late for that; from the POV of the Abramsverse inhabitants, it irrevocably happened. The most he could do would be to leave the Abramsverse and travel into the past, creating another branch. It's right there in the post you quoted: The "Spock we know" believed that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. He would have wanted to save the larger number of lives threatened in the Abramsverse Federation before embarking on any quest to "save" Vulcan by traveling to a time in which it still existed. This also applies to Spock's assumed responsibilities in the future of the Abramsverse. He could supposedly leave the Abramsverse, but to do so within the limited timeframe of STXI would be neglecting those responsibilities needlessly ( and, unlike the Spock we know, behaving selfishly and irrationally ). If traveling to the past is an option which is available to him, there is no ticking clock. He literally has all the time in the world.

If NuOldSpock is indeed the Spock from the original TOS universe (which is still debatable as far as I'm concerned), then he had access to numerous methods of time travel at his disposal. He would have knowledge of these methods having used many of them in the original universe. And since NuOldSpock is "supposed to be" from the original TOS universe, he would have probably viewed this time travel incident as working the same way it did in the original universe - bad guy goes back in time and changes past, good guys go back again (along the same timeline) and fix changes. If he were from the original universe, the branched off timeline premise wouldn't apply because it didn't apply in the original universe. My point is that the Spock we know from the TOS universe would more than likely have at least made some effort to try to figure out a way to go back and save the six billion inhabitants of his home planet (if he did indeed believe that NuVulcan was "his" home planet).

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Me

^Except, as I've said before, to do so would doom Romulus (Spock's home for 20+ years) and Remus in the 24th century. It also runs the risk of going very horribly wrong and creating a timeline where Nero destroyed the Federation, and Spock Prime is dead and thus cannot attempt another "fix".

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Me

There are always risks. Spock risked his life to go back to the 1980's and get a couple of whales to save Earth, which isn't even his home planet. So why wouldn't he do the same to save his own homeworld? And why would it doom Romulus? Spock could easily warn Romulus of the impending superduperincrediblyfrakkingiganticnova that's about to destroy them with plenty of time to spare.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

What rewrite? What are you talking about?

Spock "letting" Nero do anything... Spock "barely batting an eye"... etc.

That's not a "rewrite". It's simple observation based on what was seen on screen.

Not very observant at all. Using the passive voice "what was seen on screen" enables you to avoid the perhaps uncomfortable construction "what I saw on screen," unreasonably suggesting that your limited observations are universal or even widespread.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Me

There are always risks. Spock risked his life to go back to the 1980's and get a couple of whales to save Earth, which isn't even his home planet. So why wouldn't he do the same to save his own homeworld? And why would it doom Romulus? Spock could easily warn Romulus of the impending superduperincrediblyfrakkingiganticnova that's about to destroy them with plenty of time to spare.

Maybe the 160something-year-old Spock thinks that this time the risks are too great. There are no weapons available that can hurt the Narada, Spock Prime doesn't have any Red Matter or the Jellyfish with it's 24th century phasers.

Maybe he's following the Temporal Prime Directive (which didn't exist in the TOS era) - these alternate versions of the people he knew have just as much right to exist as his versions of them do - and his supposedly still exist somewhen in the multiverse (and since the writers of the movie use multiverse theory, Spock Prime knows about it, too)

 

[OneBuckFilms]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Me

There are always risks. Spock risked his life to go back to the 1980's and get a couple of whales to save Earth, which isn't even his home planet. So why wouldn't he do the same to save his own homeworld? And why would it doom Romulus? Spock could easily warn Romulus of the impending superduperincrediblyfrakkingiganticnova that's about to destroy them with plenty of time to spare.

Maybe the 160something-year-old Spock thinks that this time the risks are too great. There are no weapons available that can hurt the Narada, Spock Prime doesn't have any Red Matter or the Jellyfish with it's 24th century phasers.

Maybe he's following the Temporal Prime Directive (which didn't exist in the TOS era) - these alternate versions of the people he knew have just as much right to exist as his versions of them do - and his supposedly still exist somewhen in the multiverse (and since the writers of the movie use multiverse theory, Spock Prime knows about it, too)

There is evidence, in the conversation between Old Spock and NuSpock (for lack of other differentiating term).

There's dialogue to the effect that Spock Prime implied to Kirk (ie lied) by inferring that universe-ending paradoxes would ensue should his presense be revealed to his younger self.

This was the "act of faith" he had in the friendship that would define NuSpock and NuKirk "more than they realized".

 

[Gepard]

Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

If NuOldSpock is indeed the Spock from the original TOS universe (which is still debatable as far as I'm concerned), then he had access to numerous methods of time travel at his disposal. He would have knowledge of these methods having used many of them in the original universe....My point is that the Spock we know from the TOS universe would more than likely have at least made some effort to try to figure out a way to go back and save the six billion inhabitants of his home planet (if he did indeed believe that NuVulcan was "his" home planet).

That's true of every disaster that's ever been in Star Trek. Every time something has gone horribly wrong, somebody could take a ship, fly around a star and go back and fix it: tell Commodore Decker to stay out of the way of that planet killer, divert the USS Intrepid away from the giant space amoeba, warn Sisko and company to stay out of the Gamma quadrant, and so on. The only reason they don't is because then nobody could ever tell interesting stories again. If we accept easy time travel in the Star Trek universe, we also have to accept that characters will forget, based on the needs of the story, that they can hop into the past any time they feel like it. The new film is no different in that regard.