Handicaps

[TerokNor]

How you think is the general attitude towards people with physically, mentally or emotionally handicaps in the Federation and the Cardassian Union? Well and in the rest empires and things that there are.
Certain kind of handicap might not be existent anylonger, but I guess there still might be some people with handicaps around and especially in war times many people with emotional problems, like Post traumatic disorder, addictions, anxiety disorder and such.

We know that Bashirs "mutants" for example lived all their lives in an institute.
Which seems strange, cause even today it gets tried to decentralizise places for handcap people and help them to live a life of their own (with the help they need)....well often in smaler groups, but integrated in the "normal" neigbourhood.

And on cardassia? Would children with handicap for example be equally loved? What would they do with soldiers who come home with some emotional disorder because of all the wars or with some severve bodiliy damage that cannot be cured again, like a heavy brain damage because of something. Would they care for them?

TerokNor

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

Well, Bashir's 'mutants' were in an institute because the powers that be felt they, being essentially failed Augments, were too dangerous to be allowed to live on their own. Although, we don't really know what kind of 'institute' they lived in...nowadays there are places like retirement homes, hospices, and mental health institutes where handicapped people live permanently, so it might not be that different for the Jack Pack.

As for Cardassians, I'm not sure...I remember a Romulan being surprised that Geordi's parents let him live, and Cardassians can be just as ruthless and heartless as Romulans when it comes to some things, but family is VERY important to Cardassians so I don't think they would be quite so harsh on disabled children. However, family appearances are just as important so I think sometimes they would try to hide their children's disabilites or at least be ashamed. I do think they would love the child very much but maybe treat him or her differently.

 

[TerokNor]

Hmm, but besides impulsive Jack himself, the others, especially Patrick and Sarina did not seem "dangerous". Institute somehow sounds so much like hospital and everyone in one place... of course who knows, maybe it was meant different.

In what way you think cardassians would treat a disabled child different than other children?
And what about emotional handicaps (be it for children or adults)?

TerokNor

 

[Rek]

Well, wondered what people with Aspergers Syndrome would be treated like by then. Erm, its just that most of the people on Star Trek are so great with social skills and I would never be able to reach such a place but I admire them.

There does seem to be people with Handicaps, though. Like Rom and Lieutenant Reginald Barclay. Both are treated pretty well by the people around them.

 

[TerokNor]

I think someone with Asperger would not have a lot problems in the Federation, but would find a place where he/ she could work happily and be accepted the way he/ she is.
On Cardassia however... hmm... there I think someone with Asperger (if there would be Cardassians with Asperger at all) would have a very difficult time and when not acting the way it is expected it might be counted as disobidience and defiance or such.

TerokNor

 

[Cornholio]

In what way you think cardassians would treat a disabled child different than other children?

I get the impression the Cardies would probably just kill disabled children.

I remember a Romulan being surprised that Geordi's parents let him live

was that a Romulan? seems like it was those genetically engineered people in 'the Masterpiece Society'. Geordi ends up savin' 'em.

 

[Rek]

It was a genetically engineered society that said that to Geordi. "The Masterpiece Society"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Masterpiece_Society

Although, maybe a Romulan said that to him at some point, but I don't remember it myself.

 

[sevenstars]

In all of the Star Trek cultures, including the Federation, there really seems to be little tolerance for weakness, for any kind of emotional, mental or physical liability. People like Barclay are tolerated because they have some kind of compensatory skill or even superpower-- I have a hard time imagining where they would fit in if they did not.

But we see so little of these cultures! most of the time we see only the young, fit, ultra-competitive warrior class. I often wonder what else could be going on e.g. in Klingon culture-- how did those raging, batleth-wielding guys with zero impulse control ever sit still long enough to get into space? Somewhere there must be a different set of values operating.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

And on cardassia? Would children with handicap for example be equally loved? What would they do with soldiers who come home with some emotional disorder because of all the wars or with some severve bodiliy damage that cannot be cured again, like a heavy brain damage because of something. Would they care for them?

I think that sometimes it would be seen as a "private matter" for families--almost like what I think it may have been in Victorian times. I think some families would be more accepting than others...as long as the individual didn't do something that seemed like a threat or dissidence (or like the Order could take it that way).

Well, Bashir's 'mutants' were in an institute because the powers that be felt they, being essentially failed Augments, were too dangerous to be allowed to live on their own. Although, we don't really know what kind of 'institute' they lived in...nowadays there are places like retirement homes, hospices, and mental health institutes where handicapped people live permanently, so it might not be that different for the Jack Pack.

And this is also why I think Jules Bashir, had his parents accepted him as he was, would've actually had a good life...I don't think he would've been shut up in a building forever, but probably lived out somewhere and perhaps just had an aide or adviser or some sort if he needed it.

As for Cardassians, I'm not sure...I remember a Romulan being surprised that Geordi's parents let him live, and Cardassians can be just as ruthless and heartless as Romulans when it comes to some things, but family is VERY important to Cardassians so I don't think they would be quite so harsh on disabled children. However, family appearances are just as important so I think sometimes they would try to hide their children's disabilites or at least be ashamed. I do think they would love the child very much but maybe treat him or her differently.

I don't know...it's hard to tell. Remember what Gilora said to O'Brien--that she could give him "many HEALTHY children." Granted Gilora was a nonconformist since she clearly had no problem with having children with an alien. But I suspect she used ritual phrasing for her people, and the expectation is that a couple is able to bear healthy children, not ones with disabilities.

I don't think they would necessarily kill them, like Romulans or Klingons--but it might bring shame on the family.

Hmm, but besides impulsive Jack himself, the others, especially Patrick and Sarina did not seem "dangerous". Institute somehow sounds so much like hospital and everyone in one place... of course who knows, maybe it was meant different.

Patrick and Sarina certainly weren't dangerous (the other woman could potentially be if one of her obsessions turned hurtful). My concern with them would be that OTHERS could hurt THEM.

I think someone with Asperger would not have a lot problems in the Federation, but would find a place where he/ she could work happily and be accepted the way he/ she is.
On Cardassia however... hmm... there I think someone with Asperger (if there would be Cardassians with Asperger at all) would have a very difficult time and when not acting the way it is expected it might be counted as disobidience and defiance or such.

I suspect that IF I am right that Cardassians have canid pack/hierarchical instincts, that dysfunctions of those social instincts would be very, VERY bad--one would be unable to read the subtexts of what people are saying and how they are acting, and not know how to avoid unwanted types of attention. And I do think if someone seemed disobedient or defiant, that would be very bad. (And I suspect the state could force horrible "treatments" on someone for that.)

 

[Rek]

But we see so little of these cultures! most of the time we see only the young, fit, ultra-competitive warrior class. I often wonder what else could be going on e.g. in Klingon culture-- how did those raging, batleth-wielding guys with zero impulse control ever sit still long enough to get into space? Somewhere there must be a different set of values operating.

Yeah, I'd have to wonder this too. We never get to really see their logical, patience side. What we do see is a lot of angry people fighting in their prime, trying to prove the bronze not their brains. Theres got to be a few, quiet, shy Klingons that may have those instints to fight but have more focus and calm in order to create the technology that they use. Same with Klingon doctors. But like the Klingon doctor said on Enterprise, "Becomming a doctor is seen as a weakness" although that doesn't mean the Klingons don't NEED him.

As for Cardassians, I think we see only the best of the best because they were all in high ranks if you got to know them. I'm sure theres lots of people who stay in the smaller jobs, lower ranks that lack the social graces(such as myself). Who needs a leader if everyone around them are equally as smart and has equally the amount of potential. I think even the Romulans would be smart enough to know you need the underdogs for a Empire or army to work. Having a full blown Handicap like Asperger's, though, were theres no way for them to adapt at lest to basics might make them outcasts or become mistreated.

 

[TerokNor]

So when it would bring shame to the family, you think they might hide them away... well it might also depend somewhat on how severve the handicap is, I guess.

And what about soldiers who got disabled in fighting, be it emotional, physical or mentally?

@Rek: Now you have certainly put a flea in my ear Thanks.

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I think that a physical disability incurred in fighting would be seen as a sacrifice made on behalf of the state, and people like that would be seen as worthy examples to follow IF they bear their wounds well, do not complain, and do not speak against the state for the situation they got into. (In my fanfic, one such individual even manages to retain command despite the fact that policy states he automatically has to be discharged from the Cardassian Guard.) An emotional disability...I fear it might be seen as weakness and lack of discipline rather than a legitimate condition needing treatment, as we see it.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

Here...The Enemy

So when it would bring shame to the family, you think they might hide them away... well it might also depend somewhat on how severve the handicap is, I guess.

Yes, that's what I meant. As for treating them differently, here's an example from Earth: Children with Duchennes Muscular Dystrophy have a slightly higher probability of being cognitively and mentally impaired than completely healthy children, but not all who have Duchennes have the mental side (Me, for example, I'm in a wheelchair but my brain is normal...I think... ). For many years it was actually assumed that all children with Duchennes were mentally handicapped as well and they were cared for as if they were and were not taught normally or expected to do much of anything, no work assignments or anything like that. Kind of reverse favoritism in a way. Now the situation is different, but from what we know of Cardassians I think something like that would be common and they would be essentially outcasts from society though their families would care for them.

I suspect that IF I am right that Cardassians have canid pack/hierarchical instincts, that dysfunctions of those social instincts would be very, VERY bad--one would be unable to read the subtexts of what people are saying and how they are acting, and not know how to avoid unwanted types of attention. And I do think if someone seemed disobedient or defiant, that would be very bad. (And I suspect the state could force horrible "treatments" on someone for that.)

Humans were similar in the dark ages, many people with emotional or mental problems were accused of being witches and burned to death or drowned to be cured...so yeah, something similar might happen with Cardassians although in a less spiritual way. But sentient, reasoning beings in Trek act on more than their base desires and psychology, like Vulcans or Humans. Cardassian society would be harsher than some, but I think they would be able to understand that someone was sick, they are not in the Dark Ages. I think any harsh action directed towards disabled people would come more from the Military government then the 'pack instinct' of the basic Cardassian family unit. It would be bad for the individual affected and very difficult for them to live with, but I'm not sure how the others around the person would act.

 

[TerokNor]

What would happen to an emotional disabled soldier? Not executing...or? Are there cardassian counselors by the way?
And what with a soldier that comes home with severve cognitiv damage?

Edit: I think it makes sense what you say about the cardassian family unit TM. So maybe one can imagine it like it, that the "normal" family (means not the most powerful, high ranking one) would care for the child, while if a high ranking one might have to decite...if the family wants to stay in power, kill the child, if not they loose their power? If a couple gets not a healthy child it might be seen as a weakness of the parents. However of course one could also get a healthy child...and then later theres an accident...that might also be seen different by the cardassian society, than when the child is disabled from birth on.

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I suspect that IF I am right that Cardassians have canid pack/hierarchical instincts, that dysfunctions of those social instincts would be very, VERY bad--one would be unable to read the subtexts of what people are saying and how they are acting, and not know how to avoid unwanted types of attention. And I do think if someone seemed disobedient or defiant, that would be very bad. (And I suspect the state could force horrible "treatments" on someone for that.)

Humans were similar in the dark ages, many people with emotional or mental problems were accused of being witches and burned to death or drowned to be cured...so yeah, something similar might happen with Cardassians although in a less spiritual way. But sentient, reasoning beings in Trek act on more than their base desires and psychology, like Vulcans or Humans. Cardassian society would be harsher than some, but I think they would be able to understand that someone was sick, they are not in the Dark Ages. I think any harsh action directed towards disabled people would come more from the Military government then the 'pack instinct' of the basic Cardassian family unit. It would be bad for the individual affected and very difficult for them to live with, but I'm not sure how the others around the person would act.

With the Cardassians I think it would be rather, a harsh question of "should society/the state have to expend resources on this." Given the attitude towards orphaned children, I am not sure they would be willing to expend resources to help someone that did not have the right responses, the right instincts. Now, a family MIGHT, out of love for their family member and their own need to protect them. But I don't think the state would provide any help.

What would happen to an emotional disabled soldier? Not executing...or? Are there cardassian counselors by the way?
And what with a soldier that comes home with severve cognitiv damage?

I really doubt they would be executed, unless they then went and committed an "antisocial" act. I imagine they would be cared for by their families, quietly. (Sadly, I doubt reintegration into society would happen as it should.)

 

[Rush Limborg]

Well, wondered what people with Aspergers Syndrome would be treated like by then. Erm, its just that most of the people on Star Trek are so great with social skills and I would never be able to reach such a place but I admire them.

As an Aspie, myself, I'd say Ezri exhibits some signs of it. Most of her haters have called her neurotic and "annoying". I'd prefer to say "brilliant eccentric"--which I'd say is a basic description of someone with Aspergers, or at least ADD.

In short, though she has a few problems with interacting (her tendency to ramble--which I share, frankly), she fits into society just fine.

I think someone with Asperger would not have a lot problems in the Federation, but would find a place where he/ she could work happily and be accepted the way he/ she is.
On Cardassia however... hmm... there I think someone with Asperger (if there would be Cardassians with Asperger at all) would have a very difficult time and when not acting the way it is expected it might be counted as disobidience and defiance or such.

TerokNor

Well, as you know, Nerys Ghemor has been toying with the idea of Gul Dukat having Bipolar Disorder. If one with BD could survive in Cardassian society...

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I personally wasn't sure Ezri would've had Asperger's...I did see traits that reminded me of myself, though. (I have ADHD...there are some who thinks it falls on the autism spectrum somewhere, though I doubt the validity of that myself--I think it's just that ADHD gets the same end results sometimes when it comes to ability to socialize.)

As to Dukat...my thought is that the canon Dukat either wasn't treated, or was treated in a non-holistic manner. One of my readers even suggested that perhaps only the depressive phase was treated whereas the manic phase was seen as "beneficial" to the state somehow. (Given the Union's experiments with psychotropics on its own soldiers, it is at least a possibility.)

 

[TerokNor]

Ezri and Asperger? Personally I think, no absolutly not. She was young, inexperienxed and confused because of all the memories, she suddenly had.... but others than that.... she was ok with social interaction, empathic, she had no special interests, she did not seem physically "clumsy", she did not need routines ...

For Dukat I also not see him bipolar. He did have some signs that remembered on manic phases, however not as much as a true manic phase would be in my opinion. As I just experienced one of my friend going off into mania, Dukat never was as worse as she... with how he talked and thought and acted and everything.
Id more say for him it would be some sort of personality disorder...and later on, with the auditiv and optical halluzinations it reminded of shizophrenia without any medication.

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Hm...I do suspect that in the 24th century, treatments are more effective than they are now, so I'm not sure we can compare a person experiencing bipolar disorder in the 21st century to someone in the 24th. (He may even have a medical implant, which could regulate whatever medicine he needs a LOT better than our own technology could. We know the Cardassians have explored that kind of technology. And my alternate version of Dukat does have an implant.)

 

[Myasishchev]

Well, genetic engineering's off the table, but if we assume easy access to prenatal genetic screening technology, alongside an individual-centered society, I imagine abortions for the potentially disabled potentially could be the commonest solution in the Federation.

The technology definitely exists and must be cheap, because we see them use it casually. On the other hand, there may be limits to this, because it's essentially natal eugenics, which the Federation considers bad for poorly defined reasons. I mean, we wind up seeing people who were born with pretty severe disabilities, from LaForge to Bashir to Picard (who has all sorts of shit wrong with his nervous system, according to Nemesis and All Good Things).

We know from Dr. Bashir, I Presume, that genetic engineering can be used to fix "serious" birth defects. We can infer that does not include blindness, since the tech is centuries old but was not applied to LaForge--which sets the bar very high for what actually constitutes "serious." To wonder aloud, are there harlequins in the Federation? One would hope not, the poor things.

I sort of wonder if the Fed puts limits on the information doctors can give patients regarding the results of early genetic screening. The process could be used to build designer kids--it's basically the process from Gattaca, and it's not going to produce "superhumans," but it can provide the peak combination available to the prospective parents. I wouldn't be too surprised if maybe it's been decided that you just get a "healthy/not healthy" prognosis, with "healthy" defined broadly enough to encompass "treatable" issues like being born with balls of honeydew instead of eyes, or "health neutral" issues like being too dumb to tell a cat from a dog. On the other hand, I can't really see an electorate ever, ever, ever letting their legislature pass this kind of ridiculous law.

Now, we never get to see much of Federation society. But I sort of got the feeling that about 95% of the population is not gainfully employed and live off replicators, entertain themselves with the internet, and have sex largely on holodecks. Some disabilities might not entail any real hardships in what could be characterized as a post-work society (or maybe even a post-society society!). When the neurotypical guy down the block doesn't do anything but sit in his house all day and not talk to anyone who isn't computer-generated anyway, I'd suspect the Aspergers diagnosis is suddenly a lot less cutting.

As for neurological impairments/neurodiversity in aliens, I'd best not speculate. Diagnosing Aspergers or bipolar disorder in a Cardassian is probably like diagnosing anemia in a Vulcan; at best, you're just finding an analogue, and at worst it's based on a complete misunderstanding.