Re: Circumstantial Evidence?
No truth. Still exaggerating.
Still wrong, still not changing anything.
No truth. Still exaggerating.
Still wrong, still not changing anything.
Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Merge]
- Thread starter GeneHunt
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3D Master
Rear Admiral
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?
He didn't warn them about the Borg, he sent them to the Borg and sped up the interest of the Borg in the Federation. And whether Quinn shook the tree or not, doesn't matter. He didn't guide a thing. Newton still created his Principals of Physics all on his own.
Again, he didn't guide a thing. It was just Q mucking up again. After all, the only reason the white cloud existed, is because the Enterprise set up a resonance scan in the same place in three different time periods. And guess, what? The only reason the Enterprise could be at those positions at the same time in three different time periods, is because Q sent present-day Picard to three different times in his own body. Without Q's mucking, no anti-time rift.
Of course, even if Q was "guiding", Q is an existing being, one you can see with your own, that instruments can detect and measure, and who does not stop you from choosing your own path, where your decisions are your own. Gods and nebulous supernatural forces that you can see or measure, that don't exist, yet can rip your ability to decide things for yourself away to follow a "plan" or "destiny", completely removing anything worthwhile you did, because you didn't do it, you were just a puppet on a string, is a whole other matter.
Exactly, no supernatural force. He actually exists. Just because he's extremely powerful, and has massive amounts of knowledge, doesn't make him any less real, and there's actual evidence of his existence.
[quote\I've seen the STXI deleted scenes - no mention of devine forces repairing the timeline. Early scripts? Don't mean shit with regards to the final film. You're not trying to use "writer's intent", that thing you've been touting as worthless, to back up your arguments?[/quote]
Nope, like I said, it's massively implied even in vanilla STXI. And just because it isn't deliberately called supernatural, doesn't make "destiny" any less so.
And once again, it's the other way around. Where Spock Prime comes from, has bearing on whether or not it's a pile of shit. And as for other things than the threat topic, go look at yourself. I didn't bring up all kinds of side mentions.
He didn't warn them about the Borg, he sent them to the Borg and sped up the interest of the Borg in the Federation. And whether Quinn shook the tree or not, doesn't matter. He didn't guide a thing. Newton still created his Principals of Physics all on his own.
Again, he didn't guide a thing. It was just Q mucking up again. After all, the only reason the white cloud existed, is because the Enterprise set up a resonance scan in the same place in three different time periods. And guess, what? The only reason the Enterprise could be at those positions at the same time in three different time periods, is because Q sent present-day Picard to three different times in his own body. Without Q's mucking, no anti-time rift.
Of course, even if Q was "guiding", Q is an existing being, one you can see with your own, that instruments can detect and measure, and who does not stop you from choosing your own path, where your decisions are your own. Gods and nebulous supernatural forces that you can see or measure, that don't exist, yet can rip your ability to decide things for yourself away to follow a "plan" or "destiny", completely removing anything worthwhile you did, because you didn't do it, you were just a puppet on a string, is a whole other matter.
Exactly, no supernatural force. He actually exists. Just because he's extremely powerful, and has massive amounts of knowledge, doesn't make him any less real, and there's actual evidence of his existence.
[quote\I've seen the STXI deleted scenes - no mention of devine forces repairing the timeline. Early scripts? Don't mean shit with regards to the final film. You're not trying to use "writer's intent", that thing you've been touting as worthless, to back up your arguments?[/quote]
Nope, like I said, it's massively implied even in vanilla STXI. And just because it isn't deliberately called supernatural, doesn't make "destiny" any less so.
And once again, it's the other way around. Where Spock Prime comes from, has bearing on whether or not it's a pile of shit. And as for other things than the threat topic, go look at yourself. I didn't bring up all kinds of side mentions.
Checkmate
Commodore
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?
I hear all aliens look exactly alike, come from exactly the same culture, and all live in exactly the same climate. No variations allowed.
Except for Humans.
Because, you know, Humans get to be varied in looks, culture, personalities, religions, and outlooks.
I hear all aliens look exactly alike, come from exactly the same culture, and all live in exactly the same climate. No variations allowed.
Except for Humans.
Because, you know, Humans get to be varied in looks, culture, personalities, religions, and outlooks.
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?
The Borg knew about the Federation. They'd already attacked neutral zone outposts in Federation and Romulan space (and that's before all the reverse-continuity in Voyager and Enterprise). Q warned the Federation about the Borg, not the other way around.
If he wanted to, Q could invisibly manipulate the universe to his will without anyone knowing it. We've seen other Q's alter personalities before.
How exactly? How does your opinion and enjoyment of the film change depending on if it's TOS Spock or not? Why can't you just ignore the canon and pretend it's not TOS Spock? Why the obsessive urge to "prove" the ficticious universe is how you see it and not TPTB?
You've admitted you hate and disregard Enterprise and Nemesis, so why not just ignore STXI the same? All this bitterness over a tv/film franchise (that couldn't care less about disgruntled obsessive TOS fans) can't be worth it, or healthy.
The Borg knew about the Federation. They'd already attacked neutral zone outposts in Federation and Romulan space (and that's before all the reverse-continuity in Voyager and Enterprise). Q warned the Federation about the Borg, not the other way around.
If he wanted to, Q could invisibly manipulate the universe to his will without anyone knowing it. We've seen other Q's alter personalities before.
How exactly? How does your opinion and enjoyment of the film change depending on if it's TOS Spock or not? Why can't you just ignore the canon and pretend it's not TOS Spock? Why the obsessive urge to "prove" the ficticious universe is how you see it and not TPTB?
You've admitted you hate and disregard Enterprise and Nemesis, so why not just ignore STXI the same? All this bitterness over a tv/film franchise (that couldn't care less about disgruntled obsessive TOS fans) can't be worth it, or healthy.
Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??
Which version of the original Spock are you referring to?
Hmm. Odd.
Nope, no one.
Which version of the original Spock are you referring to?
Hmm. Odd.
Nope, no one.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?
Bullshit. The Borg had been in Alpha Quadrant, attacked the Neutral Zone... and left, not considering the lot interesting enough to assimilate!! Then suddenly the E-D arrives in the path of a Cube where it shouldn't be, and the Borg go: "What the hell!? How did they get here!?" And then the E-D disappears with impossible speeds the same way! Well, now, now they've got to be assimilated, because we gotta know what that was, and to have it.
The encounter with the Borg that Q sent the E-D to, sped up the Borg's interest in assimilating the Federation. Without Q, the Borg would have left the AB Quadrants alone as too primitive to assimilate. But that isn't all, considering Guinan's people being assimilated by the Borg and she and other refugees having been around in the Federation for quite some time, and there must have been at least one that realized that the more their new home knows about the Borg the higher the chance they may manage to defeat the Borg and having to watch it all over again, the Federation must have known about the Borg before Q Who. Indeed, considering that Shelby managed to get the anti-Borg effort BACK on track, not on track to begin with, as well as considering the length a starship-class has to be developed and the Defiant-class being discontinued before BoBW considering its main designer being at Wolf359, we can say with some confidence that the Federation already knew about the Borg before Q Who, and were in fact, actively preparing for them. In that light, The Raven and Seven's parents aren't retcons, they should have been expected; in fact, they should have been no surprise the moment Guinan revealed the Borg destroyed her species all the way back Q Who.
Except that he didn't.
If it were the only problem, maybe, but it's just one of many, many, many, many, many. There are only so many problems, plot-holes, idiocies, and the like a movie can have before the camel's back is broken, and STXI has broken that back before even half the film is over. In fact, if the very FIRST piece of dialog before a minute of movie-time is even over goes:
"It looks like a lightning storm! You should see it!"
"Captain, we are not yet in visible range."
That's an anvil right there.
I am ignoring STXI the same way. Just because I'm ignoring it, doesn't mean I don't point out all its idiocies when the situation that demands it arises.
Bullshit. The Borg had been in Alpha Quadrant, attacked the Neutral Zone... and left, not considering the lot interesting enough to assimilate!! Then suddenly the E-D arrives in the path of a Cube where it shouldn't be, and the Borg go: "What the hell!? How did they get here!?" And then the E-D disappears with impossible speeds the same way! Well, now, now they've got to be assimilated, because we gotta know what that was, and to have it.
The encounter with the Borg that Q sent the E-D to, sped up the Borg's interest in assimilating the Federation. Without Q, the Borg would have left the AB Quadrants alone as too primitive to assimilate. But that isn't all, considering Guinan's people being assimilated by the Borg and she and other refugees having been around in the Federation for quite some time, and there must have been at least one that realized that the more their new home knows about the Borg the higher the chance they may manage to defeat the Borg and having to watch it all over again, the Federation must have known about the Borg before Q Who. Indeed, considering that Shelby managed to get the anti-Borg effort BACK on track, not on track to begin with, as well as considering the length a starship-class has to be developed and the Defiant-class being discontinued before BoBW considering its main designer being at Wolf359, we can say with some confidence that the Federation already knew about the Borg before Q Who, and were in fact, actively preparing for them. In that light, The Raven and Seven's parents aren't retcons, they should have been expected; in fact, they should have been no surprise the moment Guinan revealed the Borg destroyed her species all the way back Q Who.
Except that he didn't.
If it were the only problem, maybe, but it's just one of many, many, many, many, many. There are only so many problems, plot-holes, idiocies, and the like a movie can have before the camel's back is broken, and STXI has broken that back before even half the film is over. In fact, if the very FIRST piece of dialog before a minute of movie-time is even over goes:
"It looks like a lightning storm! You should see it!"
"Captain, we are not yet in visible range."
That's an anvil right there.
I am ignoring STXI the same way. Just because I'm ignoring it, doesn't mean I don't point out all its idiocies when the situation that demands it arises.
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?
3DMaster:
You missed my point about Q. He can, if he chooses, act without anyone knowing. Thus we'd never know if he or a similar alien were pulling the strings from afar.
Of course the Borg knew about the Federation, and the Federation knew a little about the Borg. Yet Q put the Enterprise in the path of a cube and then snatched them away just before they effortlessly overrun the flagship. This is when Starfleet learned what the Borg were really capible of first hand.
You're not ignoring STXI. You keep attempting to prove it's not "your" Spock when it very obviously is.
This isn't about your hatred for the movie. We understand and accept that you dislike it, and why, although I and others disagree. However such silliness does not preclude Spock Prime being the guy from the original series outside your head. At all.
Your opinion is not that of those in charge. It's your fanon only. In the canon, Enterprise and STXI are connected to the TOS continuity.
3DMaster:
You missed my point about Q. He can, if he chooses, act without anyone knowing. Thus we'd never know if he or a similar alien were pulling the strings from afar.
Of course the Borg knew about the Federation, and the Federation knew a little about the Borg. Yet Q put the Enterprise in the path of a cube and then snatched them away just before they effortlessly overrun the flagship. This is when Starfleet learned what the Borg were really capible of first hand.
You're not ignoring STXI. You keep attempting to prove it's not "your" Spock when it very obviously is.
This isn't about your hatred for the movie. We understand and accept that you dislike it, and why, although I and others disagree. However such silliness does not preclude Spock Prime being the guy from the original series outside your head. At all.
Your opinion is not that of those in charge. It's your fanon only. In the canon, Enterprise and STXI are connected to the TOS continuity.
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?
Oh, and Defiant and Sisko being in charge there came after Wolf 359. It when the Borg stayed away after that that the project was put on hold and Sisko went to DS9.
Oh, and Defiant and Sisko being in charge there came after Wolf 359. It when the Borg stayed away after that that the project was put on hold and Sisko went to DS9.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?
Yeah, well, we'd never know there is an invisible flying spaghetti monster either, nor if there is a teapot orbiting the sun right now either, or Zeus exists after all. But if there is no evidence for it, a rational mind will say it doesn't exist.
2. He is obviously not.
Nope. The Defiant project was shut down after Wolf 359, because the Federation stopped the Borg and there were problems with the ship anyway. Result being, the Defiant was being developed BEFORE Wolf 359, and given a ships development cycle it was also started before Q Who.
Yeah, well, we'd never know there is an invisible flying spaghetti monster either, nor if there is a teapot orbiting the sun right now either, or Zeus exists after all. But if there is no evidence for it, a rational mind will say it doesn't exist.
And SPED UP, the time that the Borg came for the Federation, at a time that the Federation utterly was (and is) not ready for them. Which means, he didn't warn them, he fucked them over.
1. I AM ignoring STXI. Posting in a thread with the very topic is not not ignoring them. If I were not ignoring STXI, I would be posting in every thread under the sun, including gusher threads and speculation threads, and whatnot.
2. He is obviously not.
Of course, when you don't like this movie, you're silly. Keep insulting people, have fun with that. And again, my hatred does not mean that Old Spock is not Spock Prime. If it was Spock Prime I would never argue against it. The problem is, that evidence shows he's not, and, here we get with the other way around AGAIN, the fact that he's not, is one more reason why this movie is horribly bad.
It's not fanon, it's a cold hard fact exemplified by the evidence. Just because you and those in charge aren't willing to see the problems with Old Spock versus Spock Prime, doesn't make it any less true.
Nope. The Defiant project was shut down after Wolf 359, because the Federation stopped the Borg and there were problems with the ship anyway. Result being, the Defiant was being developed BEFORE Wolf 359, and given a ships development cycle it was also started before Q Who.
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?
I wasn't insulting you, 3DMaster. I wasn't calling you silly, but the movie. I love the movie, but it is silly and packed with unlikely coincidences. I'm happy to suspend my disbelief at those as well as the continuity errors exactly as I have since watching TOS, TNG and the rest. I don't think anything in the film is any worse than what has come before (you obviously disagree).
"Cold hard fact" in Trek is decided by those in charge. They have absolute power over the franchise. If they make an episode set just before "Space Seed" where Kirk passes a bong around the bridge it becomes canon, and part of the TOS story even if everyone quite rightly ignores and hates it. If they say the old guy in STXI is the Spock from TOS, it is. You're free to pretend otherwise. The canon is what future Treks build on and what the tie-in materials have to adhere to. That's all.
It shouldn't matter to you since future Treks are obviously lost to you and I doubt you'll buy any STXI tie ins.
I wasn't insulting you, 3DMaster. I wasn't calling you silly, but the movie. I love the movie, but it is silly and packed with unlikely coincidences. I'm happy to suspend my disbelief at those as well as the continuity errors exactly as I have since watching TOS, TNG and the rest. I don't think anything in the film is any worse than what has come before (you obviously disagree).
"Cold hard fact" in Trek is decided by those in charge. They have absolute power over the franchise. If they make an episode set just before "Space Seed" where Kirk passes a bong around the bridge it becomes canon, and part of the TOS story even if everyone quite rightly ignores and hates it. If they say the old guy in STXI is the Spock from TOS, it is. You're free to pretend otherwise. The canon is what future Treks build on and what the tie-in materials have to adhere to. That's all.
It shouldn't matter to you since future Treks are obviously lost to you and I doubt you'll buy any STXI tie ins.
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?
A majority of your posts from the past few days has been in this part of the forum. You even bashed Trek XI in the general forum. You aren't ignoring it if you're constantly discussing it. Ignoring it = You wouldn't be discussing it.
A majority of your posts from the past few days has been in this part of the forum. You even bashed Trek XI in the general forum. You aren't ignoring it if you're constantly discussing it. Ignoring it = You wouldn't be discussing it.
When you don't like the movie, and have spent probably close to two years endlessly reminding everyone... yes, that is silly.
You aren't presenting any facts, just opinion, but you aren't aware of that?
There aren't any "problems."
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?
Oh, and that Defiant thing? Sounds a lot like a continuity gaff you're willing to gloss over and explain away to me
Oh, and that Defiant thing? Sounds a lot like a continuity gaff you're willing to gloss over and explain away to me
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?
It's not a continuity gaff at all, it fits perfectly.
Oh, and that Defiant thing? Sounds a lot like a continuity gaff you're willing to gloss over and explain away to me
It's not a continuity gaff at all, it fits perfectly.
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?
^It fits like the Excelsior fits though spacedock doors.
^It fits like the Excelsior fits though spacedock doors.
I-Am-Zim
Captain
Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??
The one from the original TOS universe. Hmmm. Odd that you didn't pick up on that.
Yep. Quite a few, actually. You really need to read some of these threads you post in instead of attempting to bait me into some kind of argument. It's getting pretty old.
The one from the original TOS universe. Hmmm. Odd that you didn't pick up on that.
Yep. Quite a few, actually. You really need to read some of these threads you post in instead of attempting to bait me into some kind of argument. It's getting pretty old.
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Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??
Can this be merged with the "Circumstancial Evidence" thread? It's stupid having two identical threads here, not to mention the identical "Where Did Spock Go?" one in the TOS section and probably other clone threads hidden elsewhere.
There can be only one!
Can this be merged with the "Circumstancial Evidence" thread? It's stupid having two identical threads here, not to mention the identical "Where Did Spock Go?" one in the TOS section and probably other clone threads hidden elsewhere.
There can be only one!
I-Am-Zim
Captain
Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??
That's actually not a bad idea. Mods?
That's actually not a bad idea. Mods?
Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??
Stand by, and hold onto your drinks...
Oh, there are definitely clone threads; this particular topic has been kicked around the block several times already in this forum alone. There's not much I can do about the thread in the TOS forum (and I suspect the originator of that thread had very definite reasons for posting it where he did) but I think I can manage to splice this and the "Circumstantial Evidence" thread together. (Any resulting anomalies will be yours to navigate.)
Stand by, and hold onto your drinks...
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?
Except, Sisko explained the ship was designed to fight the Borg in the aftermath of Wolf 359.
Except, Sisko explained the ship was designed to fight the Borg in the aftermath of Wolf 359.
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