Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Merge]

[I-Am-Zim]

Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

Needs rare red matter for that.

Not necessarily. There are many other technobabbly ways to close temporal rifts. We've seen them countless times in the original Trek universe.

No for the love of all that is holy drop the f@#king technobabble nobody wants it back.

Speak for yourself. I have no problem with technobabble, when used in moderation. A little technobabble can go a long way when used to explain certain rediculous contrivances to make them sound less stupid (transwarp beaming, anyone?).

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

If they actually expect anyone (well...TOS fans at least) to believe that OldSpock and Nero came from the Trekverse that we know and love, then they should have at least made some effort to connect it to the original.

Which they did. Including dialogue lifted directly from TWOK/TSFS and a character arc lifted from TNG, among many other things such as references to events first described in TOS episodes. In fact, the original deal was apparently something like "No Nimoy, no film". (Of course, that was clearly an attempt to generate viewers' interest through the appearance of an alternate Spock which they'd never heard of or cared about before, rather than the one they were already familiar with. )

Like I said, if they had really wanted us to believe that OldSpock was, indeed the Spock we know, then they should have written him to resemble the Spock we know. The Spock in STXI didn't remind me of the original Spock. The only reason Mr. Nimoy was in this movie was for the "wow" factor of seeing one last appearance of one member of the old cast. Simply using recycled dialogue and storylines from past Trek along with numerous cliche' lines and scenes that felt forced at best do not necessarily "connect" the Abramsverse to the original Trek universe. All it does is show that the two separate universes are different but have subtle similarities.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

I disagree with him as well. The trend is good...

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

I hate technobabble.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

Technobabble was overdue a deserving death in 1998.

Of course, without it every Voyager episode would have been about 8 minutes long

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

The way I see it, the Kelvin fits just fine between the NX-01 and the Abramsprise. The NX-01 was a small, 80+/- crew starship with primitive (by 23rd century standards) weapons. The Kelvin is a gi-frakkin-gantic, 800+/- crew starship with 37+/- shuttles and phaser turrets on the saucer. The Abramsprise is an even more flippin hugomongously frakkin gigantically oversized behemoth with probably 12.5 thousand crew that can travel at speeds heretofore unheard of in the Star Trek universe. So yes, in the bigger-is-better Abramsverse, the Kelvin fits just fine.

However, it does not fit between the NX-01 and the TOS Enterprise, in my opinion.

The NX-01 was a small, 80+/- crew starship with primitive (by 23rd century standards) weapons, no tractor beams, and only a couple of shuttle pods. The Kelvin is an gi-frakkin-gantic, 800+/- crew starship with 37+/- shuttles and phaser turrets on the saucer. The TOS Enterprise is a reasonably sized starship with advanced weaponry, 200-400 crew, tractor beams, several shuttles, smooth surface features, concealed weaponry, and a sleek, understated design style that is truely elegant in its simplicity.

From a purely stylistic standpoint, the Kelvin doesn't fit the design lineage from NX-01 to TOS Enterprise. It works just fine for the Abramsverse though.

 

[M'Sharak]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

<snip> The Kelvin just looked...wrong. That's not saying it wasn't a good looking ship. I liked the design. It just didn't look like an early 23rd century starship should. It looked too much like the TMP refit. Plus there was that lit-up deflector. That was totally out of place. The size issue is debatable. I tend to agree that it was too big, what with 40+/- shuttles!?!? That's one froggin gigantic ship the likes of which is never seen in Trek until at least the 24th century. And I don't even think the Galaxy class had that many shuttles. It just doesn't fit.
<snip>

<snip>
The Kelvin is a gi-frakkin-gantic, 800+/- crew starship with 37+/- shuttles and <snip>

<snip>
The Kelvin is an gi-frakkin-gantic, 800+/- crew starship with 37+/- shuttles and <snip>

(emphasis mine)

Where are those shuttle counts coming from, btw? Just curious - I don't think we saw anything near that number of shuttles on-screen in the Kelvin evacuation sequence, nor do I believe that many would necessarily have been required to transport ~800 people.

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Where are those shuttle counts coming from, btw? Just curious - I don't think we saw anything near that number of shuttles on-screen in the Kelvin evacuation sequence, nor do I believe that many would have been required to transport ~800 people.

If you say no more than 20 people fit into one shuttle, you'd need about 40 of them. One must still take into account that they were somewhere in deep space, so help might not have arrived for days, so there needs to be enough air, food and water for everyone in these little shuttles, so you can't put many more people inside than originally intended.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Notice the differences? TNG Rommies have hair.

Nero's wife has hair. Thus the stance of STXI is that Romulans in general have hair, just like all the other Romulans we've ever encountered. So: no difference.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

Simply using recycled dialogue and storylines from past Trek along with numerous cliche' lines and scenes that felt forced at best do not necessarily "connect" the Abramsverse to the original Trek universe.

You may be missing the point of the "recycled dialogue". This callback to TWOK/TSFS is meant to indicate that it's the same Spock who originally spoke those lines, and not just some random coincidence. Similarly, Ambassador Spock is meant to be the same Ambassador Spock we already know, as opposed to a stranger with the same title. These would be the most likely suppositions on the part of the supposedly all-important "average moviegoers". The claim "they do not necessarily connect" is merely a useless appeal to provability, which I'm sure you know to be an impossible goal in any event, especially when explicit authorial intent has already been thrown under the bus. In other words, this film did everything in its power to indicate that it was intended to be the same Spock, and thus refusal to accept this fact is merely contrarianism for its own sake.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

<snip> The Kelvin just looked...wrong. That's not saying it wasn't a good looking ship. I liked the design. It just didn't look like an early 23rd century starship should. It looked too much like the TMP refit. Plus there was that lit-up deflector. That was totally out of place. The size issue is debatable. I tend to agree that it was too big, what with 40+/- shuttles!?!? That's one froggin gigantic ship the likes of which is never seen in Trek until at least the 24th century. And I don't even think the Galaxy class had that many shuttles. It just doesn't fit.
<snip>

<snip>
The Kelvin is a gi-frakkin-gantic, 800+/- crew starship with 37+/- shuttles and <snip>

<snip>
The Kelvin is an gi-frakkin-gantic, 800+/- crew starship with 37+/- shuttles and <snip>

(emphasis mine)

Where are those shuttle counts coming from, btw? Just curious - I don't think we saw anything near that number of shuttles on-screen in the Kelvin evacuation sequence, nor do I believe that many would necessarily have been required to transport ~800 people.

George Kirk told his wife to get on shuttle #37. That implies that there are at least 37 shuttles, if not more. With 800 crew, about 40 shuttles would be required for everyone to evacuate. And in the opening scene, there were a whole buncha shuttles (I didn't count them) leaving the scene of the Kelvin/Narada skirmish. So 40+/- sounds about right to me. That's one big ol' ship by TOS standards.

 

[Dukhat]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

George Kirk told his wife to get on shuttle #37. That implies that there are at least 37 shuttles, if not more. With 800 crew, about 40 shuttles would be required for everyone to evacuate. And in the opening scene, there were a whole buncha shuttles (I didn't count them) leaving the scene of the Kelvin/Narada skirmish. So 40+/- sounds about right to me. That's one big ol' ship by TOS standards.

1. George Kirk says "Shuttle 37," not "shuttle #37." So that does not technically mean that there are 37 shuttles. And even if it was the 37th shuttle, who's to say that it simply wasn't a replacement for a previous shuttle no longer aboard the ship?

2. There were 19 shuttles that escaped the Kelvin (not counting Robau's). So the Kelvin's shuttle complement was twenty, taking into consideration that there's no reason why every shuttle used wouldn't have been in that scene.

3. I also understand that 40+ people crammed into a shuttle is indeed sardine territory, but that's what the scene implies. Sure, it would have sounded better had the Kelvin had only a crew of, say 300, but it didn't.

 

[Devon]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

So the mining vessel has to look like a bird of prey? Why? That's like saying all Starfleet vessels have to look the same. They don't.

Whatever it can look like, it can't look like a Shadow Battlecrab from Babylon 5.[/quote]

It can, just like it also doesn't have to look a bird of prey or warbird. No such rule exists except in the minds of a few fans.

And sorry, but yes, all Starfleet vessels may not look exactly the same, but they ALL look alike. Even the massive different design-philosophy of the Defiant-class, even that ship still has the same hull composition and coloring, as well as the same insignias.

Not really. Plus, I should have caught this snafu in your post earlier which I ended up doing the same thing, but you were also making the mistake of lumping the mining vessel with a Romulan military vessel, so why does it have to look like a bird of prey?

*It doesn't*

The Narada-crab, wasn't even anywhere in the neighborhood.

Irrelevant. Mining vessel.

If he didn't know the year, why would he be surprised? If he didn't know the year and saw a Cadet Kirk, any rational person would assume a time/year before Kirk took command of the Enterprise, possibly even, before he even graduated the Academy. Yet he was surprised Kirk wasn't the captain of the Enterprise, despite the fact there has been at least one other captain of the Enterprise, and this Kirk is very young and still cadet uniform and insignias.

Spock just saw Kirk in a black shirt... obviously he didn't know he was a cadet (cadet uniforms being different in the prime universe.) He had no idea what was going on. He looked like the younger Jim Kirk he once knew.

Uh, no, the Galaxy-class was A LOT bigger than TOS Enterprise.

Where did I say it wasn't? Re-read what I said please.

The point is, that the Enterprise in the Prime Universe was the pinnacle that Starfleet had. It also still carries the design and engineering eastetic of the Prime 2280s.

And it still is in the new universe.

Bullshit. It was supposed to look like something designed around the 2200s-2230s prime universe;

According to??? Again, made up.

Nope, logical reasoning.

Where?

Nope, he is not.

Oh well if 3D Master says he isn't then I suppose that makes everyone else in the world wrong.

Then they should still be surprised they're seeing Vulcans in something that doesn't even come close to Vulcan.

So now it's withered down to if they look "surprised" or not. Game over basically.

Old radio transmissions? You think old radio transmissions manage to survive intact enough to be used to decipher not just one language, but three entire dialects of one?

Sure, why not?

As for other references; name them.

References other members of the Federation may have had and shared with Starfleet, Intel, etc. You know, like any other way we have to decipher other languages? This isn't a new concept.

======

George Kirk told his wife to get on shuttle #37. That implies that there are at least 37 shuttles, if not more. With 800 crew, about 40 shuttles would be required for everyone to evacuate. And in the opening scene, there were a whole buncha shuttles (I didn't count them) leaving the scene of the Kelvin/Narada skirmish. So 40+/- sounds about right to me. That's one big ol' ship by TOS standards.

Then you would have to say that the TOS Enterprise had at least 7 shuttles because of the Galileo 7 shuttlecraft. We only ever saw 1 or 2, at once if we were lucky.

 

[Pauln6]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Then you would have to say that the TOS Enterprise had at least 7 shuttles because of the Galileo 7 shuttlecraft. We only ever saw 1 or 2, at once if we were lucky.

I think that might be a common misconception. The shuttle was the Galileo. The 7 was the seven crew on board.

Previously shuttles were primarily for exploration and life pods were for emergency evacuations (noted specifically on the TMP Enterprise). It looks as though they have moved towards shuttles being the primary means of evacuation. Perhaps the life pods are only needed where a saucer separation has been required and the shuttle bay isn't available? At any rate, they now need larger shuttle bays otherwise they can't evacuate quickly(shuttles are normally kept parked up and would need to be moved to the landing bay and prepped before flight).

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Then you would have to say that the TOS Enterprise had at least 7 shuttles because of the Galileo 7 shuttlecraft. We only ever saw 1 or 2, at once if we were lucky.

I think that might be a common misconception. The shuttle was the Galileo. The 7 was the seven crew on board.

The "7" was also in reference to the shuttle's registry number--NCC-1701/7--displayed prominently on its flanks and along its nacelles.

Conversely, the Shuttlecraft Columbus (seen in TOS-R) had the registry NCC-1701/2.

But even before TOS-R, I think it always was quite plausible that there were indeed seven shuttles on the original Enterprise, presumably all named after famous Earth explorers, IMO. It might be standard operational procedure, however, to only have one or two shuttles ready for quick launch.

 

[Pauln6]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Then you would have to say that the TOS Enterprise had at least 7 shuttles because of the Galileo 7 shuttlecraft. We only ever saw 1 or 2, at once if we were lucky.

I think that might be a common misconception. The shuttle was the Galileo. The 7 was the seven crew on board.

The "7" was also in reference to the shuttle's registry number--NCC-1701/7--displayed prominently on its flanks and along its nacelles.

Conversely, the Shuttlecraft Columbus (seen in TOS-R) had the registry NCC-1701/2.

But even before TOS-R, I think it always was quite plausible that there were indeed seven shuttles on the original Enterprise, presumably all named after famous Earth explorers, IMO. It might be standard operational procedure, however, to only have one or two shuttles ready for quick launch.

Ah cool - I never noticed that. The information and shuttle bay in the TMP Enterprise is more detailed but I think the assumption was that they had a small number of shuttles and then a larger number of small auxilliary craft (such as work bees). The shuttles have to be retrieved from a parking area by elevator before they can be used.

 

[3D Master]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

So the mining vessel has to look like a bird of prey? Why? That's like saying all Starfleet vessels have to look the same. They don't.

Whatever it can look like, it can't look like a Shadow Battlecrab from Babylon 5.

It can, just like it also doesn't have to look a bird of prey or warbird. No such rule exists except in the minds of a few fans.[/quote]

Wrong. The only place it doesn't exist, is in people who refuse to apply any sense of logic.

And sorry, but yes, all Starfleet vessels may not look exactly the same, but they ALL look alike. Even the massive different design-philosophy of the Defiant-class, even that ship still has the same hull composition and coloring, as well as the same insignias.

Not really.

Yes, really.

Plus, I should have caught this snafu in your post earlier which I ended up doing the same thing, but you were also making the mistake of lumping the mining vessel with a Romulan military vessel, so why does it have to look like a bird of prey?

It has to look like it comes from the same species, the same culture, at least. Thus similar construction and design philosophies must exist. Then there's the fact that as a totalitarian government, the likelihood of private mining ships are extremely small, which would have given you the only chance at least somewhat different a design and even than it would be extremely small. The Shadow Battle-crab: no.

Irrelevant. Mining vessel.

Mining vessel is irrelevant.

Spock just saw Kirk in a black shirt... obviously he didn't know he was a cadet (cadet uniforms being different in the prime universe.) He had no idea what was going on. He looked like the younger Jim Kirk he once knew.

Not really, he looks a whole lot younger.

And it still is in the new universe.

Irrelevant.

According to??? Again, made up.

According to simple reasoning. The date was 2233, and according to the movie that is the Prime Universe until Nero's arrival split it up. Therefor in 2233, and given a potential age, it should look like 2230s Prime Universe.

It doesn't, therefor it isn't.

Where?

Everywhere.

Oh well if 3D Master says he isn't then I suppose that makes everyone else in the world wrong.

No, when logical reasoning says he isn't, and everyone else in the world doesn't apply that reasoning, they're wrong.

Old radio transmissions? You think old radio transmissions manage to survive intact enough to be used to decipher not just one language, but three entire dialects of one?

Sure, why not?

Good cloud cover, and a simple tunnel is enough to reduce the signal to noise on a system designed to specifically read that signal. If you think enough of a signal manages to get to the nearest solar system having to avoid planets, asteroids, comets, but especially ions in space and solar radiation and storms to get even one word intact to the nearest solar system, you're mistaken. Let alone have to cross multiple solar systems and manage to get even one entire language out of it, let alone three distinct dialects.

As for other references; name them.

References other members of the Federation may have had and shared with Starfleet, Intel, etc. You know, like any other way we have to decipher other languages? This isn't a new concept.

The Romulans have always been secretive. They're going to be protecting knowledge of themselves and their language from ever other species equally.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

A quick mini-questionnaire for 3DMaster and the other members of thr "It absolutely must be an alternate universe" brigade:

1. Do you believe Enterprise takes place in the same universe as TOS?

2. What about TNG? Do you think "Unification" Spock is the same guy from TOS?

3. Do you believe anything other than utter mindless slavish devotion to the TOS canon is allowed in any Star Trek?

Just trying to understand your POV's a little better.

 

[3D Master]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

A quick mini-questionnaire for 3DMaster and the other members of thr "It absolutely must be an alternate universe" brigade:

1. Do you believe Enterprise takes place in the same universe as TOS?

Nope.

2. What about TNG? Do you think "Unification" Spock is the same guy from TOS?

Yep.

3. Do you believe anything other than utter mindless slavish devotion to the TOS canon is allowed in any Star Trek?

Nope.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

A quick mini-questionnaire for 3DMaster and the other members of thr "It absolutely must be an alternate universe" brigade:

1. Do you believe Enterprise takes place in the same universe as TOS?

Hmmm. I'd like to believe it doesn't (I'm not a big ENT fan), but unfortunately, it has to. Although there are numerous canon errors in ENT that can't be justified, there are also references to TOS and Trek's future that tie ENT in with the rest of the Trek universe. So, I suppose my answer to that one would be yep.

2. What about TNG? Do you think "Unification" Spock is the same guy from TOS?

Yes. I have no reason not to believe so.

3. Do you believe anything other than utter mindless slavish devotion to the TOS canon is allowed in any Star Trek?

Well...I would prefer at least some adherance to the established canon in any series that claims to be in the same universe and timeline as the Star Trek we all know and love. That's why I prefer to think of STXI as a completely separate alternate universe that has little in common with the original Trek. Simply because there is absolutely no adherence to any of the established TOS continuity except for the names. Although there are numerous errors throughout Trek's 44 year history, for the most part, the overall continuity is pretty consistent. There are things we know and things that are left somewhat ambiguous and open to interpretation. I can't say "yes" or "no" to that question because it is too direct. I would expect adherance to the established canon that we know, but that which is ambiguous can be interepreted in many ways as long as it still fits in with what is firmly established.

Just trying to understand your POV's a little better.

Hope this helps. My POV is basically that I don't agree with JJA's alternate timeline/reality/universe/whatchamajigger approach to sidestepping the existing canon so that he could essentially "reboot" the Star Trek universe. My POV is that there were many, many, many exciting and entertaining stories that could have been told while still adhering to the established continuity of the TOS universe. All they needed were writers who were creative enough to do it. To me, the use of the alternate whatever was just lazy writing. I'm not saying I could have done better, but better writers could have. If STXI is the best this writing team has to offer, I'm not impressed.