Will we see Rose... but more importantly...

[Sci]

This really does pain me, but Bones is right, Rose is a chav, no denying it, as for Nine being scary because he is Northern, he's right again, being a Southerner I'd feel rather intimidated if I met him in a dark ally.

Uh-huh. Classist insults and stereotypes are okay if two people use them!

Seriously?

Seriously.

Are you even aware what Chav means?

Yes. It's a classist stereotype.

Yes you may think the world shines out of Rose's arse, but she is a Chav. She lives on a council estate (don't you even dare say they may own it)

1. I'll dare say whatever the hell I want, thanks.

2. It's specifically identified numerous times as a council estate, so I can't say I had any particular impulse to claim they might own it.

As for Nine, no classest remarks intended and I will repeat what I said earlier: Being a Southerner I'd feel rather intimidated if I met him in a dark ally.

You should be intimidated by him because you're meeting him in a dark ally, not because he happens to be from the North.

I was being truthful about it, if you want to disagree with me, that's fine, but have you ever been to Manchester? Have you even set foot out of the United States of America?

I have never left the United States, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize classist stereotypes when I see them.

 

[Starkers]

Because the Classic series allowed itself to follow a less predictable narrative path away from the likes of romance and emotional exploration,

Which is horrifying to me. A work of art that does not possess an emotional component, that is not in some way an exploration of human emotion -- be it alone or in conjunction with explorations of human intellect -- is a work of art that's not worth the time of day.

In your opinion.

ETA (now that I've made the trip to work) - The movie Alien for instance, didn't feature much in the way of romantic content, yet it remains a good, tense flick.

Anyway, there always were moments of emotion (and by that I mean platonic love, respect, pride, fear, cowardice, noble sacrifice, sense of duty in the face of impending doom, etc etc) in the old show, but it just avoided the doctor/companion romantic angle and soap opera bits (by and large).

Watching the old show, I realise there are other components I appreciate and which warm the cockels for me in addition to these things. Last night I watched Horror of Fang Rock and seeing the Doctor express pride and a protective streak for his companion ("Leela has particularly heightened senses and if she says there is something coming, there is something coming!") is rather endearing to me, especially when he hides these things from her most of the time by calling her 'savage' or describing her people as 'backward'.

Also, seeing something like a dispassionate display of rational thought winning out over superstition, to see science triumph over mysticism is something I find really appealing - to the point where such rationalism can elicit an emotional response in me (perhaps I'm weird that way). I really miss this element in the new show.

You might say 'big deal' to these themes, and not see the appeal, and that's fine, but they really do work for me in a big way.

Very articulate and well thought out post and a great example of lauding the classic series without feeling the need to slag off the new (or vice versa).

And Rose isn't a Chav, frankly I doubt anyone who thinks she is has ever met a real chav. First off she has a job! She isn't foul mouthed, doesn't dress like she thinks she's black or cover herself in bling, isn't drunk or stoned at 9am or constantly giving the finger to everyone she meets. She also isn't pushing a pushchair around the estate.

Is she a bit common? Clearly. Is she from the poorer end of the social spectrum? Undoubtedly. Is she a bit thick? Maybe, although I'd go with Sci on this, she's uneducated rather than stupid. Is she a chav? No, not really (and its possible to be a chav and be well off or clever)

Jackie certainly leans more towards chavdom, but even she isn't really there. And Micky? Bit of an idiot yes, but again hardly the scum of society!

 

[Starkers]

I have never left the United States, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize classist stereotypes when I see them.

You should try it, broadens the mind and will give you a better ear for foreign accents

 

[Sci]

I have never left the United States, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize classist stereotypes when I see them.

You should try it, broadens the mind and will give you a better ear for foreign accents

I've every intention of traveling out of the U.S. when circumstances and finances allow.

 

[Starkers]

Ok, but Canada doesn't count

I've still got to visit the States again one day. Only ever been the once, to New York.

 

[Sci]

Ok, but Canada doesn't count

Canada counts -- it's just not enough. I'd love to see Toronto and Ottawa and what-have-you, but I want to see Britain and France and Germany and Argentina and Chile and Mexico, too. One of my goals is to live in Britain for at least two years at some point in my life, actually.

I've still got to visit the States again one day. Only ever been the once, to New York.

Make sure you visit Washington, D.C., at least some point in your life. Beautiful city.

 

[Starkers]

Actually I'd quite like to visit Canada at some point, and yeah I'd like to see Washington. If you did come to the UK I'd recommend seeing places beyond London (I'm guessing you might want to do Cardiff at least).

 

[Bacl]

I have never left the United States, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize classist stereotypes when I see them.

I have left the United States, but I'd never been to Europe. Few years ago, the wife and I decided to do a long-term trip to first Spain, then Italy. By long term I mean that we put all our things in storage, grabbed a couple suitcases, and rented a room and tried to earn a couple Euros under the table. We felt this would give us a different experience than staying in hotels and traveling to tourist sites.

We managed about six months in each. We had a great time, but let me tell you, the racism and classism was outrageous. We couldn't believe what we saw, and worse, what we heard from others.

For all the endless shit we Americans seem to get from the rest of the world, all the endless criticism, I found that the behaviors of the people we met in Italy and Spain were not one bit better. My wife had a distinct difference: at least in America it is considered unacceptable to say something horribly racist, whereas no one seemed shocked to hear some of the vile that spewed around us.

So back to the original point: no, you don't have to have left your country to recognize racism. This is a false concept. If you are spewing racism or classism, other people can recognize it. If I say something racist about blacks, or the Chinese, you don't have to have lived in America to be capable of recognizing that these are racist comments. Likewise, prejudging a group of people in a negative way based on their accent, or what geographical region they come from, is prejudice, plain and simple.

 

[Captaindemotion]

In Ireland, we use 'knacker', 'spide', 'skoby' or 'skanger' rather than Chav. And I wouldn't have said Rose is any of them.

Does she wear burberry? No. Baseball cap? No. Cheap jewellery? No. Tracksuit or sports gear? Rarely. £200 trainers with £2 jeans? No.

Does she lay loud bad ganster rap on a cheap ghetto blaster. No. Say 'innit?' at the end of every sentence? No. Smoke constantly and drink cheap drink or take drugs? No.

Does she have a criminal record? Not as far as we know. Does she have a job? Yes.

She's working class but that does not mean she's a Chav. To suggest that you can't be the first without also being the second is pretty sad.