725m Enterprise

[blssdwlf]

Check the movie again then. Enterprise drops out of warp, scrapes a hull and then gets spotted by one of the Romulan crewmembers. It is not because they saw the Enterprise coming inbound from warp.

Except much earlier than that, Nero is told by Ayel "Seven Federation ships are on their way." Enterprise was the last of this group, eighth in line, and therefore somehow didn't show up on Narada's sensors.

So later when Enterprise emerges from the debris field we get "Captain there's another ship coming in!" and Nero's sort of dismissive response, "Destroy it too."

I think "surprised" is a little generous, just that his sensors miscounted the number of ships they detected on approach. Proof, once again, that it's better to be lucky than skilled.

"Surprised" = "didn't see the Enterprise approaching" seems more accurate than miscounting, IMHO. Besides, the way you described it could be applicable to the 7 ships as "they just showed up" rather than "I see 7 heading towards us at warp speed."

The real hero of the story is Sulu. If he hadn't delayed the Enterprise there wouldn't have been time for Kirk to warn Pike So yes on luck!

 

[Crazy Eddie]

"Surprised" = "didn't see the Enterprise approaching" seems more accurate than miscounting, IMHO. Besides, the way you described it could be applicable to the 7 ships as "they just showed up" rather than "I see 7 heading towards us at warp speed."

But they WERE at warp when Ayel first reported them, so the surprise factor is minimal. Narada had torpedoes loaded and ready and blew them away as they dropped to sublight; that Enterprise happened to arrive moments later comes as a "Look, here comes an extra one" moment.

 

[blssdwlf]

The sensors are lesser and maybe bulkier, unable to scan the vessels in Vulcan orbit, something Kirk's Enterprise in the prime universe would have done with no problem.

What makes you say that, when even Enterprise-D lacked this ability in Best of Both Worlds? Actually, it seems that Enterprise couldn't even know for sure that the fleet was still there until AFTER they'd dropped out of warp, and didn't know they'd all been destroyed until they were in visual range.

The E-D doesn't equate to TOS-E

The TOS-E might not be precise enough to determine if a ship has been attacked, but at least they can tell if something is there.

 

[blssdwlf]

"Surprised" = "didn't see the Enterprise approaching" seems more accurate than miscounting, IMHO. Besides, the way you described it could be applicable to the 7 ships as "they just showed up" rather than "I see 7 heading towards us at warp speed."

But they WERE at warp when Ayel first reported them, so the surprise factor is minimal. Narada had torpedoes loaded and ready and blew them away as they dropped to sublight; that Enterprise happened to arrive moments later comes as a "Look, here comes an extra one" moment.

I'll have to watch that again. It didn't seem like the Narada knew of the Enterprise's approach until visual contact.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The fleet of seven ships "on their way" included the Enterprise (I've got the wallpaper of all the ships docked). It was just a few minutes behind all the others. Nero's reaction (until he saw which ship it was) was "another one? Didn't we get them all?"

(and yes, Sulu's "parking brake" incident saved everyones lives )

 

[Timo]

Hmh? It didn't seem to make any difference - Nero still got to fire at the ship as soon as she emerged, and the hits were as deadly as one would have expected in all cases. If anything, Sulu fumbling meant that the Enterprise arrived solo, and thus Nero could concentrate all his fire on the Enterprise, endangering the heroes more than in the alternate case.

What saved the ship had nothing to do with Sulu's fumble or Kirk's arguments. The ship was saved from the second, fatal volley by Nero spotting her name and registry - which he would probably have done in all circumstances. And assuming that Starfleet's newest flagship also had the strongest shields, Nero would have dealt with her "personally" after having destroyed the rest of the fleet anyway.

The fleet of seven ships "on their way" included the Enterprise (I've got the wallpaper of all the ships docked).

But there are eight ships docked!

...The hero ship plus one other round-saucer vessel on the first docking module, then going clockwise we have one round-saucer vessel; one half-saucer-double-secondary-hull ship plus one three-naceller; one round-saucer two-naceller (plus one midget ship that apparently didn't participate); one half-saucer-double-secondary-hull ship; and finally one more half-saucer-double-secondary-huller.

If all the ships departed, that's eight ships. Dialogue in the Academy hangar scene only mentions six ships, including the Enterprise, though - and we never really see that all eight would launch. But we do see the name of a seventh vessel on a wreckage saucer, suggesting that at least seven ships in total did launch. The jury is thus still undecided on whether our heroes were the seventh ship in the mix, or the eighth...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

Eep. My counting isn't up to par, then
apologies.

The reason Enterprise survived the first Nerada attack at all is because her shields were up. The rest of the fleet were under the impression Vulcan was experiencing a natural disaster, and had no idea a giant space octopus was awaiting. Why didn't they raise shields the minute they saw it? No idea.

It's also possible, if we assume the other ships raised shields before just getting hit, that Enterprise survived simply because she was the newest, most advanced ship. It's probable she was designed with Nerada's attack on the Kelvin in mind - those pulse phasers very effectively cleared the way for the Jellyfish's ram attack at the end.

But why did the missiles not destroy the Kelvin in the first shot? They were firing to disable. Why not in the second attack, after Robau gets killed? Hmm...maybe the pulse-turret things stopped enough of the missiles once they got them working, and were at least able to cover the most sensitive Kelvin areas?

 

[FredH]

Since the USS Kelvin was gigantic too, what should be asked is "what happened in Prime Trek between 2233 and 2245 to make them compact their ships"?

My fannish assumption is that in PrimeTrek, Starfleet eventually decided that gigantic ships like the Kelvin were too resource- and energy-intensive, and so moved back to smaller ships like the Prime-version Constitution. (Which still dwarfed most civilian traffic!) Whereas in JJTrek, the brief appearance of the Narada (and its easy trashing of one of said monster ships) made Starfleet decide to go for more and better huge ships, to better cope with similar threats. Plus, forwarded scans of the Narada probably helped to somewhat boost Starfleet's own tech.

 

[Timo]

It's also possible, if we assume the other ships raised shields before just getting hit, that Enterprise survived simply because she was the newest, most advanced ship.

This is the horse I'd bet on. Remember that the Kelvin was likewise surprised, did manage to raise shields in time, and then succumbed so easily that the bridge crew was shouting "Did we even get the shields up!?" to each other.

Elsewhere in Trek, shield strength doesn't seem to increase constantly, or in leaps and bounds, within two-decade timespans. It's possible the Truman had shields similar to those of the Kelvin, and that Nero destroyed both the same way, by launching half a dozen initial missiles to cripple the enemy despite shields, and then finishing her off. And it's quite possible that the Enterprise survived for a crucial extra minute that allowed Nero to have a look at her pennants, and weathered the first volley better than the Kelvin and thus was a useful Starfleet asset again very soon after the battle.

It's also perfectly possible that the Truman and her little flotilla emerged from warp with shields up; dialogue doesn't contradict that, it merely hints at the possibility that Pike might have dropped from warp shields down without Kirk's intervention. And even there, odds are that Pike would have raised shields, just in case.

It's probable she was designed with Nerada's attack on the Kelvin in mind - those pulse phasers very effectively cleared the way for the Jellyfish's ram attack at the end.

But note that the Kelvin's full arsenal also nicely intercepted all of Nero's missiles aimed at the fleeing shuttles. Perhaps there's no quantum leap in weapons technology or strength or numbers - perhaps the main difference was that Robau didn't employ the full arsenal of his ship effectively in the first attack. Note that only George Kirk uses those white pulse-guns, and that the ship under his command fires more of the red beams.

I hesitate to think that Starfleet actually did anything directly in response to the Narada. They didn't seem to believe in this enemy much when actually confronted with it; perhaps the reports of the Kelvin survivors had been less than accurate, and possibly even less than credible? And if the Enterprise, Pike's baby, was designed with a specific opponent in mind, why didn't Pike know more about this opponent?

But why did the missiles not destroy the Kelvin in the first shot? They were firing to disable. Why not in the second attack, after Robau gets killed?

I'd speculate Nero was concentrating on stopping the witnesses from leaving in the shuttles, and aiming most of his second-volley missiles at those small craft. Fighting the Kelvin would be a breeze, but hunting down 20 individual small craft (no matter how small and weak) would be difficult for his lumbering monstrosity of a spacecraft. Better kill all of them as they were still clustered...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The sensors are lesser and maybe bulkier, unable to scan the vessels in Vulcan orbit, something Kirk's Enterprise in the prime universe would have done with no problem.

What makes you say that, when even Enterprise-D lacked this ability in Best of Both Worlds? Actually, it seems that Enterprise couldn't even know for sure that the fleet was still there until AFTER they'd dropped out of warp, and didn't know they'd all been destroyed until they were in visual range.

The E-D doesn't equate to TOS-E

The TOS-E might not be precise enough to determine if a ship has been attacked, but at least they can tell if something is there.

And the E-D can't? Why is that?

 

[blssdwlf]

What makes you say that, when even Enterprise-D lacked this ability in Best of Both Worlds? Actually, it seems that Enterprise couldn't even know for sure that the fleet was still there until AFTER they'd dropped out of warp, and didn't know they'd all been destroyed until they were in visual range.

The E-D doesn't equate to TOS-E

The TOS-E might not be precise enough to determine if a ship has been attacked, but at least they can tell if something is there.

And the E-D can't?

Well you implied that the E-D "couldn't even know for sure that fleet was there until AFTER they'd dropped out of warp" and IMO the TOS-E could've detected the presence of those ships prior to dropping out of warp.

Why is that?

Real world? Different production crew and AFAIK, Roddenberry made some changes. In-Universe? It's a different universe than TOS, IMHO

Back to AbramsEnterprise - I think now that the ships must have some minimum ability to see and track other warp ships since the clearest example of this is when the Narada chases Spock's ship as it warps away and drops out as Spock turns to fight. Then the AbramsEnterprise drops out of warp to shoot down the missiles.

As to why the Narada only detected the Enterprise well after it dropped out of warp when at Vulcan, I dunno. Perhaps too much radiation or just lazy (or overconfident) romulan crewmembers?

And why the Enterprise was unable to confirm the status of the ships ahead of it... that's another mystery. The sensors at warp might only work to track other warp signature objects. The sudden destruction of the ships would mean no warp signature and thus no information while at warp? Just a thought...

 

[blssdwlf]

What saved the ship had nothing to do with Sulu's fumble or Kirk's arguments. The ship was saved from the second, fatal volley by Nero spotting her name and registry - which he would probably have done in all circumstances.

With the mess of missiles that the Narada shoots at all it's targets it would've been more sheer luck if he could tell all the names of the first seven (or six) ships that arrived at Vulcan. It makes alot more sense that with only the Enterprise to shoot at that Nero would have had more opportunity to give a good look at the ship and thus decide to rub it into alt-Spock, IMO.

If all the ships departed, that's eight ships. Dialogue in the Academy hangar scene only mentions six ships, including the Enterprise, though - and we never really see that all eight would launch. But we do see the name of a seventh vessel on a wreckage saucer, suggesting that at least seven ships in total did launch. The jury is thus still undecided on whether our heroes were the seventh ship in the mix, or the eighth...

Yeah, 8 ships at the dock but I only remember 5 or maybe 6 ships warping away from the exterior shot before they cut to the bridge where they have Sulu's parking brake scene. Was there other indication of the other 1 or 2 ships warping away?

If all 8 ships went to Vulcan, then that would imply that the Narada could only detect the first 7 and IIRC, the Enterprise was already at warp by then. Of course, the Enterprise could've just been out of the Narada's detection range.

But if the Enterprise was part of that 7 then the guys on the Narada need some counting lessons when they tally up the killed ships The dialogue should've been, "here is the last Federation ship" instead of "there is another Federation ship"

 

[Timo]

As to why the Narada only detected the Enterprise well after it dropped out of warp when at Vulcan, I dunno. Perhaps too much radiation or just lazy (or overconfident) romulan crewmembers?

I'd suggest the easiest answer: Vulcan blocked the view.

I mean, it's standard in Trek for starships to hide from each other by going behind a planet. It happens in TOS "A Private Little War", it happens in ST2:TWoK, it happens in TNG "Descent", it's implied in half a dozen other places. And the Narada was hovering low in the Vulcan upper atmosphere, so the horizon was really close in every direction. We may assume all sorts of sequences of events, such as the Narada first duking it out with the initial Starfleet response and then descending and deploying the drill, or the Narada first descending and deploying the drill and then fighting the fleet from the low position just like she fought the Enterprise. It's pretty easy to construct a scenario where the Narada would have early information on an approaching fleet, then lose the feed due to descending, and thus expect the arrival of the fleet but be surprised by irregularities in that arrival.

We may even speculate that Nero chose the exact drilling site because it hid him from Earthly view... I mean, the choice is odd in other ways. It's close to an important Vulcan city (perhaps the capital rahter than Spock's native Sri'Kahr?), negating the elements of surprise, stealth or distance-from-defenses, yet not aimed directly at that city, either. And it's a bit unlikely the site would have the weakest crust for the drill to penetrate, because supposedly a grand Vulcan city has lived long and prospered in that geographical area.

The dialogue should've been, "here is the last Federation ship" instead of "there is another Federation ship"

Well, if we believe in the idea of a three-minute trip from Earth to Vulcan, then Nero should have been prepared for the unexpected if sporadic arrival of random Starfleet forces from all directions at all times.

Of course, I'd like to believe in a trip of several hours at the very least, both to keep the movie better in line with the rest of Trek (four days for the same trip in TMP, albeit at non-emergency speeds), to keep the movie internally consistent (the trip in the other direction was way longer), and to allow for all the events that transpired during the initial trip.

If the trip is longer, then Starfleet reinforcements from elsewhere would probably take even longer to respond, thus being no concern to Nero who was going to be finished with his planeticide in less than an hour anyway.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

As to why the Narada only detected the Enterprise well after it dropped out of warp when at Vulcan, I dunno. Perhaps too much radiation or just lazy (or overconfident) romulan crewmembers?

I'd suggest the easiest answer: Vulcan blocked the view.

You make good points and that seems to be what was done with Saturn (although that seemed to be more of a problem of stealth after dropping out of warp.)

But, based on the Vulcan scene it didn't look like any planet was blocking the approach (unless warp now allows flying through normal space objects.) The only things that were blocking LOS were the space debris.

The dialogue should've been, "here is the last Federation ship" instead of "there is another Federation ship"

Well, if we believe in the idea of a three-minute trip from Earth to Vulcan, then Nero should have been prepared for the unexpected if sporadic arrival of random Starfleet forces from all directions at all times.

Of course, I'd like to believe in a trip of several hours at the very least, both to keep the movie better in line with the rest of Trek (four days for the same trip in TMP, albeit at non-emergency speeds), to keep the movie internally consistent (the trip in the other direction was way longer), and to allow for all the events that transpired during the initial trip.

3 minutes seems fast, but that would depend on whether Vulcan is in the same star system as was presented in the other Treks

Besides, in TMP it took Spock roughly 12 hours in a long-range shuttle (maybe even less to account for packing and ordering a flight) to go from Vulcan to Earth. Scotty's line about four days included a "proper shakedown" meaning it most likely would have been the scenic route.

 

[Timo]

But, based on the Vulcan scene it didn't look like any planet was blocking the approach (unless warp now allows flying through normal space objects.) The only things that were blocking LOS were the space debris.

I'd say warp allows flying around objects - and Chekov simply plotted an approach that would take the ship from the Earth side of Vulcan to the capital city side at the final few split seconds of warping.

Besides, in TMP it took Spock roughly 12 hours in a long-range shuttle (maybe even less to account for packing and ordering a flight) to go from Vulcan to Earth

Or more exactly from Vulcan to that spot in space where the wormhole had dropped the Enterprise. Since Spock telepathically sensed V'Ger yet no Vulcan on Earth (say, Sonak) apparently did, we could use that as an argument for Vulcan being closer to V'Ger than Earth was, hence Spock traveling partway "backwards" to meet with the starship.

Incidentally, if you agree with Star Charts, Vulcan is in the same direction as Klingon space, and we know for certain that Klingon space was closer to V'Ger's direction of approach than Earth was... So we're more in the realm of nice coincidences than of inconvenient contradictions here. Many other factors agree with placing Vulcan between Earth and Klingon space, too.

Scotty's line about four days included a "proper shakedown" meaning it most likely would have been the scenic route.

The writers' intention probably was to have Scotty exclaim with pride that the trip would take only four days, against the much longer time that preceding ships had to spend on this benchmark stretch of space. But four days across 16 ly is towards the lower end of the speeds suggested by TOS... So the "scenic route" explanation is the more appealing one. Perhaps Scotty actually laments that the ship can take Spock to Vulcan no sooner than that? (After all, the actors do have a lamentation motive going there, as they'd hate to see Spock leave! We can then interpret the acting whichever way we want.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

But, based on the Vulcan scene it didn't look like any planet was blocking the approach (unless warp now allows flying through normal space objects.) The only things that were blocking LOS were the space debris.

I'd say warp allows flying around objects - and Chekov simply plotted an approach that would take the ship from the Earth side of Vulcan to the capital city side at the final few split seconds of warping.

It would be simpler if there was some indication of a last minute maneuver before dropping out of warp I guess I'll just wait to see if ST:XII will show more of how they handle warp navigation.

Besides, in TMP it took Spock roughly 12 hours in a long-range shuttle (maybe even less to account for packing and ordering a flight) to go from Vulcan to Earth

Or more exactly from Vulcan to that spot in space where the wormhole had dropped the Enterprise. Since Spock telepathically sensed V'Ger yet no Vulcan on Earth (say, Sonak) apparently did, we could use that as an argument for Vulcan being closer to V'Ger than Earth was, hence Spock traveling partway "backwards" to meet with the starship.

I dunno about that Sonak - the Vulcan who mind-melds with Spock at the beginning only acknowledged V'ger's presence after starting the mind-meld. It might be Spock is particularly sensitive to telepathy.

As far as Vulcan being on the way, maybe. When the Enterprise caused the wormhole and dropped out of it, V'Ger was less than 48 hours away from Earth. Their original IP to V'ger would put them ~27h from Earth (~47h-20.1h).

After Spock arrives (not much after the wormhole incident) and "less than 3 hours" of repairs later the Enterprise is ready to warp out and intercept V'ger. Their new IP to V'ger would put them "still more than a day from Earth". So that would mean >24h from Earth which would suggest that the Enterprise didn't go that far with the wormhole and Spock met them very close to the Sol system.

So with a LRShuttle, 11-15 hours would be my guess for Vulcan to Sol system. We've seen the Enterprise cover roughly 1000 ly in less than a day (at least twice). I'd say the Enterprise could've done the Earth to Vulcan trip at emergency speeds within an hour. Maybe even a few minutes if Vulcan were the same as AbramsTrek

Scotty's line about four days included a "proper shakedown" meaning it most likely would have been the scenic route.

The writers' intention probably was to have Scotty exclaim with pride that the trip would take only four days, against the much longer time that preceding ships had to spend on this benchmark stretch of space. But four days across 16 ly is towards the lower end of the speeds suggested by TOS... So the "scenic route" explanation is the more appealing one. Perhaps Scotty actually laments that the ship can take Spock to Vulcan no sooner than that?

But ya gotta remember that Scotty always multiply his (repair) estimates by a factor of 4 - so why not again to keep Spock around longer

Anyway, if we used 16 ly as the distance then the TOS-E could've crossed that distance in ~11 minutes maybe faster if the engines flew apart...

(After all, the actors do have a lamentation motive going there, as they'd hate to see Spock leave! We can then interpret the acting whichever way we want.)

So true

 

[I-Am-Zim]

In the same way, there could be ships bigger than the prime-1701, yet have the same capabilities.

Might be interesting to question exactly why the ST Eleven Enterprise is as large as it is. It could be that the new Enterprise engines, weapons and other systems are much less efficient that the similar systems in Starfleet vessels from the prime universe. The alternate (JJ-verse) universe's Starfleet might be building their ships at that size because they have no choice in the matter.

It would seem pretty obvious that the engines work (at least slightly) differently, the warp effect making it so that that occupants can't see the stars. The sensors are lesser and maybe bulkier, unable to scan the vessels in Vulcan orbit, something Kirk's Enterprise in the prime universe would have done with no problem. Pike did seem to find anything unusual about it.

Makes sense to me.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

"Not seeing the stars" at warp is because a new special effect was used, nothing more, nothing less. If anything getting to Vulcan in three minuites means the ship's a lot faster (but that's another discussion)

However, in all other incarnations of Star Trek, the stars were visible through windows and on viewscreen while at warp. The only in-universe explanation is that in the Abramsverse, Starfleet uses a different type of warp drive.

As far as the Fuglyprise getting to Woolcan in sree minutes? I don't buy it. It took longer. But that's my opinion just based upon the obvious time cuts in that scene.

The inability to scan ships in Vulcan orbit is because of Nero's drilling beam, which blocks sensors, subspace communications and transporters)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it was ever said that the drill disrupted sensors. Only transproters and communications. Their sensors should have worked just fine. In fact, Hannity was able to tell Pike that all the other ships were out of warp and had arrived at Vulcan. Yet they couldn't detect the carnage of the battle. The only reason the sensors didn't work at warp was so that JJA could have his Falcon entering the Alderaan system scene in his new fangled Star Trek movie.

Since the USS Kelvin was gigantic too, what should be asked is "what happened in Prime Trek between 2233 and 2245 to make them compact their ships"?

That is only if you believe the Kelvin was from the "Prime" Trek universe.

I think the size of the ship is because they could afford bigger sets and used the beer brewery. In-universe? I personally like to think the huge ships like the Kelvin and Newton co-existed with the TOS connie the same as the Enterprise-D and Voyager. If they can reverse-engineer Remans into the continuity they can do it with giant starships, too.

I don't buy that. But that's just me. And also, we've always known about Romulus' sister planet, Remus since "Balance of Terror". The existence of inhabitants on that planet was never confirmed or denied. So the fact that there were Remans in NEM wasn't "reverse engineering", it was just an addition of a race that had always been there, just never seen.

 

[F. King Daniel]

TOS didn't have a warp speed effect at all. Is that an alternate universe? Is that a different drive to Enterprise that came back again for TNG? Again it comes down to how literally you take visual effects. I think you, and a few others, take them far too seriously.

If Nero's drill disrupts communications and transporters, it's easy to believe it does the same to sensors - after all without sensors one cannot aim the transporter and one cannot detect vessels to communicate with.

 

[blssdwlf]

TOS didn't have a warp speed effect at all.

Not exactly. TOS didn't have a "going to warp effect" and a "stationary camera warp effect as the ship warps by" that was ever shown. TOS stuck mostly to the camera flying next to ship position which neither of the warp effects would be seen.

IIRC, when the Enterprise meets up with V'ger, they are both going at warp and looks like something out of TOS. After Khan says "prepare to alter course" we see the Enterprise at warp (that looks again like TOS warp) in "Wrath of Khan". It just depends on the camera position and speed