Dumb and Bizarre Trek Novel Moments...

[Sci]

^ Right, Trent, that's it exactly. You're saying that the Federation failed, because of what is essentially a natural disaster that had nothing whatsoever to do with those ideals in the first place. It's exactly like saying that an asteroid wiping out California makes democracy a silly idea.

For me, I don't consider the Borg to be a "force of nature" or any other such uncontrollable phenomenon usually attributed to them. The Borg are/were controlled by a sentient mind, and in Destiny (and Before Dishonor) they had active intent on killing everyone and everything in the Federation and anyone near. A comet (or hurricane or earthquake) has no such ill-intent and is essentially an accident that such things occur. The Borg were no accident they didn't stumble across the Federation and in the process accidentally destroy billions, they actively made a decision to seek out the Federation specifically and made another decision to actively destroy everything in their path.

But even then, it still doesn't make sense to say that anything about the Borg Invasion invalidates Federation ideals and values. You might as well argue that the Third Reich and the Holocaust somehow mean that liberal democracy and human rights are proven invalid or hollow or whatever. It's nonsense -- if anything, the Borg Invasion (and the Third Reich) proved how important those basic ideals truly are.

And it's important to remember: The Federation stayed true to its ideals. The U.F.P. committed no war crimes, did not violate anybody's civil rights, did not torture prisoners, did not establish a surveillance society, and did not commit any acts of aggressive warfare. And, ultimately, the Federation belief in the importance, morality, and utility of multiculturalism was what convinced the Caeliar to renounce their xenophobia and isolationism, disband the Collective, and accept its liberated drones. Federation values really did save the day.

 

[Christopher]

For me, I don't consider the Borg to be a "force of nature" or any other such uncontrollable phenomenon usually attributed to them. The Borg are/were controlled by a sentient mind, and in Destiny (and Before Dishonor) they had active intent on killing everyone and everything in the Federation and anyone near.

True, but it's an analogy, not a literal assertion. As I said, they're like a force of nature because they're so far beyond any possibility of engaging with as equals in a military, political, or diplomatic sense that their effect can better be compared to the impact of a natural disaster than to a conflict with a rival nation or army. And although there is a sentience controlling them, it's a profoundly impersonal sentience (at least as initially conceived, until the Queen was retconned in for dramatic convenience), so it's beyond dealing with on a human level.

If a hurricane destroys your city, it doesn't matter whether it has a conscious will behind it or not. Either way, it's not something you can negotiate with, intimidate, plead with, buy off, or defeat by force. You either get out of its way or batten down and try to survive, and then you clean up afterward. That's what "like a force of nature" (emphasis on like) means in this context.

 

[LightningStorm]

But even then, it still doesn't make sense to say that anything about the Borg Invasion invalidates Federation ideals and values.

Oh, I agree on that. I don't think Trent is trying to argue that, though I could be wrong, but I do see how the way it's being argued it could be perceived that way. I was merely making a statement against the comparison of the Borg to a meteor wiping out half a continent.

And, ultimately, the Federation belief in the importance, morality, and utility of multiculturalism was what convinced the Caeliar to renounce their xenophobia and isolationism, disband the Collective, and accept its liberated drones. Federation values really did save the day.

This is a point people keep making, but I can't agree that it was that specifically that caused Caelier intervention. What caused the Caelier to act was the revelation that they created the Borg or more specifically that it was a corruption of their values/mindset that created the Borg. None of Riker, Dax, Picard, nor Hernandez successfully pleaded their case to the Caelier and convinced them that they should intervene on any wholesome altruistic ideals. Now, it was Hernandez (being of the same value system as the Federation) that decided to go out on her own and take some action yes. And her actions were invaluable but even with her actions had she not found out that the Borg originated from the Caelier and then subsequently informed the gestalt of that fact, the Caelier would have been content (as near as I could tell) to let the entirety of the Alpha/Beta Quadrants die to the Borg.

Basically it was the Caelier's values of self responsibility that caused them to intervene not the Federation's values of fair, just, humanitarian treatment of all. Even after the Caelier assimilated the Borg it was their feeling of self responsibility for what the Borg did to the drones/slaves that caused them to take them all in.

 

[LightningStorm]

That's what "like a force of nature" (emphasis on like) means in this context.

"Like a force of nature" is indeed different than "is a force of nature" but I've seen many MANY times here people refer to the Borg as a force of nature, not simply like one.

And by "here" I mean on this BBS rather than specifically here in this thread at this moment.

 

[Christopher]

Basically it was the Caelier's values of self responsibility that caused them to intervene not the Federation's values of fair, just, humanitarian treatment of all. Even after the Caelier assimilated the Borg it was their feeling of self responsibility for what the Borg did to the drones/slaves that caused them to take them all in.

Perhaps. But it was Hernandez's Starfleet/Federation values of inquisitiveness and involvement that led to the discovery that enabled her to convince the Caeliar to act on their own values. Influencing someone with your values doesn't necessarily mean converting them to think the same way you do. It just means letting your values guide you into positive action that convinces others to make a difference, even if they do it for their own reasons.

"Like a force of nature" is indeed different than "is a force of nature" but I've seen many MANY times here people refer to the Borg as a force of nature, not simply like one.

That just means they used it as a metaphor rather than a simile. That doesn't make it any more literal.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

For me, I don't consider the Borg to be a "force of nature" or any other such uncontrollable phenomenon usually attributed to them. The Borg are/were controlled by a sentient mind, and in Destiny (and Before Dishonor) they had active intent on killing everyone and everything in the Federation and anyone near.

True, but it's an analogy, not a literal assertion. As I said, they're like a force of nature because they're so far beyond any possibility of engaging with as equals in a military, political, or diplomatic sense that their effect can better be compared to the impact of a natural disaster than to a conflict with a rival nation or army. And although there is a sentience controlling them, it's a profoundly impersonal sentience (at least as initially conceived, until the Queen was retconned in for dramatic convenience), so it's beyond dealing with on a human level.

If a hurricane destroys your city, it doesn't matter whether it has a conscious will behind it or not. Either way, it's not something you can negotiate with, intimidate, plead with, buy off, or defeat by force. You either get out of its way or batten down and try to survive, and then you clean up afterward. That's what "like a force of nature" (emphasis on like) means in this context.

You can't atribute values of 'good' or 'evil' to a hurricane because he has no consciouness, intelligence to guide it.

The borg, on the other hand, are a sentience driven by the 'will to conquer' who killed BILLIONS and assimilated TRILLIONS. They are 'evil' in a ridiculously pure form. Which is an essential difference between them and a 'force of nature'.

The borg are an enemy army waging war against the rest of the galaxy, bent on genocide and assimilation.

And the federation utterly failed against them.
The metaphorical 'Jungian shadow' prevailed, unambiguously, over our heroes - see Picard - and over the federation.
And this failure lead to the death of BILLIONS, to a materially crippled federation.
As recent history - real world history - more than proved, the invasion should leave deep psychological scars, too - not some artificial 'let's return to the previous mindset'.

 

[JarodRussell]

Just beware, writers and editors, that you don't deconstruct the Federation and Starfleet, otherwise Star Trek has no point anymore. It's about showing an optimistic future that works, a society that is in every way better than ours, and not about showing a paradise that turns into hell and stays that way.

 

[Thestral]

The borg, on the other hand, are a sentience driven by the 'will to conquer' who killed BILLIONS and assimilated TRILLIONS. They are 'evil' in a ridiculously pure form. Which is an essential difference between them and a 'force of nature'.

The borg are an enemy army waging war against the rest of the galaxy, bent on genocide and assimilation.

Driven by a hunger to return to the purity of the Caeliar, not simply a will to conquer. Thus the solution wasn't to simply destroy the evil, but to heal it, removing the hunger and taking away the source of the evil, finding a solution other than killing every drone and the Collective.

And the federation utterly failed against them.
The metaphorical 'Jungian shadow' prevailed, unambiguously, over our heroes - see Picard - and over the federation.
And this failure lead to the death of BILLIONS, to a materially crippled federation.
As recent history - real world history - more than proved, the invasion should leave deep psychological scars, too - not some artificial 'let's return to the previous mindset'.

How fortunate then that Picard wasn't our only hero here: although he broke, Captains Dax and Hernandez kept working to find solutions in the face of impossible, overwhelming odds, one of which destroyed 50% of the invasion and the other actually removed the Borg as a threat forever. The shadow did not, in the end, prevail although it looked like it was about to; even though the Federation didn't physically defeat the Borg, it was they who led the Caeliar to intervene and take responsibility for the Borg.

Just beware, writers and editors, that you don't deconstruct the Federation and Starfleet, otherwise Star Trek has no point anymore. It's about showing an optimistic future that works, a society that is in every way better than ours, and not about showing a paradise that turns into hell and stays that way.

The "perfect society" ship has long since sailed. Paradise was deconstructed on Deep Space Nine and the end of TNG.

 

[JarodRussell]

The "perfect society" ship has long since sailed. Paradise was deconstructed on Deep Space Nine and the end of TNG.

Well, episodes likes Homefront shook the Federation a little, but Sisko talked some sense into them. And at the very end of DS9 is a peace treaty after all.

But the Federation is THE positive role model, even though there is some crisis and evil plot here and there. But the day someone gets taken away with the idea to create "Federation breaks apart and fails" stories, Star Trek will truly have run its course. For me at least. There are various "ideas for the next TV show" threads around here, and there's always a couple of folks who want "to see everything break apart and burn", but that's not what Trek should be about.

 

[Thestral]

The "perfect society" ship has long since sailed. Paradise was deconstructed on Deep Space Nine and the end of TNG.

Well, episodes likes Homefront shook the Federation a little, but Sisko talked some sense into them. And at the very end of DS9 is a peace treaty after all.

But the Federation is THE positive role model, even though there is some crisis and evil plot here and there. But the day someone gets taken away with the idea to create "Federation breaks apart and fails" stories, Star Trek will truly have run its course. For me at least. There are various "ideas for the next TV show" threads around here, and there's always a couple of folks who want "to see everything break apart and burn", but that's not what Trek should be about.

I think there's a large enough continuum between early TNG's bringht shiny people and, say, Ron Moore's BSG that Trek can easily fit on the brighter side of the spectrum with some significant shades of grey, yeah. And after all, Destiny ends with the Federation reeling and billions dead... but the threat removed forever and billions more saved, with hope for the future.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The borg, on the other hand, are a sentience driven by the 'will to conquer' who killed BILLIONS and assimilated TRILLIONS. They are 'evil' in a ridiculously pure form. Which is an essential difference between them and a 'force of nature'.

The borg are an enemy army waging war against the rest of the galaxy, bent on genocide and assimilation.

Driven by a hunger to return to the purity of the Caeliar, not simply a will to conquer. Thus the solution wasn't to simply destroy the evil, but to heal it, removing the hunger and taking away the source of the evil, finding a solution other than killing every drone and the Collective.

I directly quoted Picard's words in Voy:Scorpion:
The complete quote sounded ~'Do not expect reason or compassion from the borg. They feel no pity, no remorse, only the will to conquer.'
And Picard had an intimate knowledge of the borg mind, Kestrel.

And the 'solution' had nothing to do with 'our heroes'. They were just there to whine and die.

And the federation utterly failed against them.
The metaphorical 'Jungian shadow' prevailed, unambiguously, over our heroes - see Picard - and over the federation.
And this failure lead to the death of BILLIONS, to a materially crippled federation.
As recent history - real world history - more than proved, the invasion should leave deep psychological scars, too - not some artificial 'let's return to the previous mindset'.

How fortunate then that Picard wasn't our only hero here: although he broke, Captains Dax and Hernandez kept working to find solutions in the face of impossible, overwhelming odds, one of which destroyed 50% of the invasion and the other actually removed the Borg as a threat forever. The shadow did not, in the end, prevail although it looked like it was about to; even though the Federation didn't physically defeat the Borg, it was they who led the Caeliar to intervene and take responsibility for the Borg.

'it was they (the federation) who led the Caeliar'? Talk about unsubstantiated affirmations.
Hernandez, a Caeliar (by her own admission) - the half-divine being who attained full divinity in the end - informed the Caeliar that the borg were born because of them, and then the Caeliar, with no interference, decided to wave their wand and deal with the borg.
Where exactly is the federation leading anything?

About the federation - Dax or the Da Vinci crew were the exceptions - and yes, they proved that the creative, the 'never give up' approach, would have worked.

But what about the rest of the federation?
Picard was the rule - broken, not even trying to find a solution, to prevail, because 'it won't work', reduced to trading soon-to-be useless weapon, waiting for the borg to snuff him. Most of starfleet behaved in this way, wanting only to commmit seppuku, the federation leadership had the same passive, defeatist behaviour.
The borg utterly broke Picard, his spirit, and the federation's - and all they had to do was show up.

 

[Thrawn]

The borg utterly broke Picard, his spirit, and the federation's - and all they had to do was show up.

And destroy several planets. And the entire amassed fleet of almost every Alpha Quadrant power we know of.

This was no minor catastrophe. If this counts as "just showing up", then I'd like to know what you consider an actual aggressive act.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Basically it was the Caelier's values of self responsibility that caused them to intervene not the Federation's values of fair, just, humanitarian treatment of all.

Perhaps. But it was Hernandez's Starfleet/Federation values of inquisitiveness and involvement that led to the discovery that enabled her to convince the Caeliar to act on their own values.

Hernandez was never part of the federation. She used to be human a long time ago, but not anymore - she surpassed the 'mere mortals' becoming a 'god of night', a Caeliar (remenber how she admits this herself, leaving with her people?).
I guess, in the end, 'men are something to be overcome'.

The borg utterly broke Picard, his spirit, and the federation's - and all they had to do was show up.

And destroy several planets. And the entire amassed fleet of almost every Alpha Quadrant power we know of.

This was no minor catastrophe. If this counts as "just showing up", then I'd like to know what you consider an actual aggressive act.

But the borg broke Picard long before they brought the big guns. Picard was a disappointment throughout the entire trilogy.

 

[Christopher]

The borg, on the other hand, are a sentience driven by the 'will to conquer' who killed BILLIONS and assimilated TRILLIONS. They are 'evil' in a ridiculously pure form. Which is an essential difference between them and a 'force of nature'.

The borg are an enemy army waging war against the rest of the galaxy, bent on genocide and assimilation.

Driven by a hunger to return to the purity of the Caeliar, not simply a will to conquer. Thus the solution wasn't to simply destroy the evil, but to heal it, removing the hunger and taking away the source of the evil, finding a solution other than killing every drone and the Collective.

Indeed. "Will to conquer" is an inappropriately anthropomorphic phrase here. The Borg didn't see it as conquest, they saw it as spreading perfection. As a hive consciousness, they automatically assumed that unity was natural and inevitable. They had no concept of genocide, because they had no awareness of individual beings. From their perspective, absorbing a race's distinctiveness into the Collective was giving it immortality, improving and perfecting it, preserving it as part of something greater.

It's a gross failure of imagination and a gross misreading of the facts to try to paint the Borg in such conventionally human terms, as if they were merely another conquering nation. The Borg are probably one of ST's most successful attempts at portraying aliens that think in a genuinely different way than humans do.

Just beware, writers and editors, that you don't deconstruct the Federation and Starfleet, otherwise Star Trek has no point anymore. It's about showing an optimistic future that works, a society that is in every way better than ours, and not about showing a paradise that turns into hell and stays that way.

"Turns into hell and stays that way?" That's nothing like what's actually been happening. Destiny showed the Federation facing its greatest challenge and triumphing by refusing to abandon its principles. A Singular Destiny and Losing the Peace have shown it working to rebuild, to make things better again one crisis at a time, and pretty consistently succeeding. The VGR and TTN novels set post-Destiny have shown it continuing its tradition of peaceful exploration and diplomacy. There are scars, there are consequences, yes, but it's not "hell" and it's certainly not "stay[ing] that way."

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The borg, on the other hand, are a sentience driven by the 'will to conquer' who killed BILLIONS and assimilated TRILLIONS. They are 'evil' in a ridiculously pure form. Which is an essential difference between them and a 'force of nature'.

The borg are an enemy army waging war against the rest of the galaxy, bent on genocide and assimilation.

Driven by a hunger to return to the purity of the Caeliar, not simply a will to conquer. Thus the solution wasn't to simply destroy the evil, but to heal it, removing the hunger and taking away the source of the evil, finding a solution other than killing every drone and the Collective.

Indeed. "Will to conquer" is an inappropriately anthropomorphic phrase here. The Borg didn't see it as conquest, they saw it as spreading perfection. As a hive consciousness, they automatically assumed that unity was natural and inevitable. They had no concept of genocide, because they had no awareness of individual beings. From their perspective, absorbing a race's distinctiveness into the Collective was giving it immortality, improving and perfecting it, preserving it as part of something greater.

It's a gross failure of imagination and a gross misreading of the facts to try to paint the Borg in such conventionally human terms, as if they were merely another conquering nation. The Borg are probably one of ST's most successful attempts at portraying aliens that think in a genuinely different way than humans do.

"I directly quoted Picard's words in Voy:Scorpion:
The complete quote sounded ~'Do not expect reason or compassion from the borg. They feel no pity, no remorse, only the will to conquer.'
And Picard has an intimate knowledge of the borg mind, Christopher."

About the borg thinking differently: they know the concepts of 'good' and 'evil' - they assimilated TRILLIONS who knew them - but they don't care about them, they're 'irrelevant'. This makes them textbook sociopaths - that's what their 'different' way of thinking amounts to, morality-wise.

 

[Thrawn]

The borg utterly broke Picard, his spirit, and the federation's - and all they had to do was show up.

And destroy several planets. And the entire amassed fleet of almost every Alpha Quadrant power we know of.

This was no minor catastrophe. If this counts as "just showing up", then I'd like to know what you consider an actual aggressive act.

But the borg broke Picard long before they brought the big guns. Picard was a disappointment throughout the entire trilogy.

If that's true, then they also "broke" him three novels earlier, in Resistance, and very nearly did in First Contact. He's always had a blind spot for the Borg.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

And destroy several planets. And the entire amassed fleet of almost every Alpha Quadrant power we know of.

This was no minor catastrophe. If this counts as "just showing up", then I'd like to know what you consider an actual aggressive act.

But the borg broke Picard long before they brought the big guns. Picard was a disappointment throughout the entire trilogy.

If that's true, then they also "broke" him three novels earlier, in Resistance, and very nearly did in First Contact. He's always had a blind spot for the Borg.

Picard has been fighting with what the borg did to him since 'The best of both worlds'.

In 'First contact' and 'Resistance' the borg got to Picard, yes, but he always managed to find the strength to do his duty despite that - the borg didn't break him, make him give up.

'Destiny' was the last and most important chapter of this arc - Picard's longest arc in the series - because here, the outcome of this battle was finally revealed: Picard utterly lost the battle for his own soul.

 

[Christopher]

The Borg broke Picard -- in the sense of overcoming his resistance and sense of self and reducing him to total obedience -- in "The Best of Both Worlds." Everything else is the aftermath of that. That kind of psychological trauma leaves deep scars.

 

[Thrawn]

What the hell does that even mean, "lost the battle for his own soul"? His soul still resides safely within his person, he still believes in the Federation, and he is still an effective Captain. He just had a tragic flaw, like many heroes; he could not deal with this particular thing effectively.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The Borg broke Picard -- in the sense of overcoming his resistance and sense of self and reducing him to total obedience -- in "The Best of Both Worlds." Everything else is the aftermath of that. That kind of psychological trauma leaves deep scars.

Yes - as it turns out, scars too deep for Picard to trimuph over, a trauma that, in the end, completely broke him.

What the hell does that even mean, "lost the battle for his own soul"? His soul still resides safely within his person, he still believes in the Federation, and he is still an effective Captain. He just had a tragic flaw, like many heroes; he could not deal with this particular thing effectively.

Remember Gul Madred and his question: How many lights are there?
If the borg would ask the same question, Picard wouldn't say '4'.
That's what it means.

Practically, it means that when the federation needed his determination and his genius most, Picard failed to do his duty.