Is World War III anti-Star Trek?

[F. King Daniel]

The whole point of Star Trek is that it's an optomistic future. We've bettered outselves and are no longer racist, sexist, murdering, raping, genocidal monsters. A nice idea indeed.
Problem: We didn't better ourselves. The Vulcans bettered us. Humans started a nuclear war that effectively ended civilization and killed countless millions. A group of Vulcans descend into Montana and help us rebuild, and ultimately set us on the path to the "better" humans seen in ENT/TOS/TNG/etc. If the Vulcans hadn't arrived, humanity may have died a slow, lingering radioactive death.

According to First Contact and Enterprise, the whole idea that "we can do better" is false. It's actually "aliens come and show us the way after we fuck up".

I enjoyed First Contact (and Enterprise) a lot, but I thought it undermined Trek's fundamental message.
It would be nice if we got there on our own, without having to destroy ourselves first.

 

[T'Girl]

We've bettered outselves.

This phrase gets heavily over used by some Trek fans. The current human race is filled with truly fine people which is why we didn't take ourselve into extinction centuries ago.

From comments made by Captain Archer it sounds more like the improvement made by the Human race since the third world war were in many cases inspite of the Vulcan, not because of them. The Human culture shown in Enterprise and after is hardly a Vulcan clone.

Remember, the Vulcan culture during that time period was a authority driven near dictatorship. It doesn't appear that this was "given" to the humans. If it had been the Vulcans who largely rebuilt the shattered Human society, you would expect to see that.

In terms of Humanity dying a a slow lingering radioactive death. It would depend on how much of the death was caused by nukes, Data did detect radiation in the atmophere, but it was never qualified. A major exchange of nuclear weapons, with all the after effect would have killed more then six million people. The recent war in the Congo killed five and a half million people and that was just with 25 armed groups using guns. Many of the people who died during/from the third world war could have died when the infrastructure fell. Not from nukes or combat.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think World War III was (even if unintentionally) a means of throwing some realism into the future. Yes, Trek suggests that things will get better and that there are some amazing things awaiting us, but it won't be all just cheery and light--there will be some dark times along the way too.

I believe that the term "we bettered ourselves" is perfectly valid--in comparison to pre-World War III Humans. While you can argue over the particulars, I think it generally means that Earth nations stopped waging wars upon one another and began cooperating more.

Personally, I believe a lot of that had to do with the global realization (or confirmation) that Humans truly weren't alone in the Universe anymore, and that we had to get our house in order if we wanted to be a part of the larger galactic community--of something better than they currently had.

 

[startrekk]

Sorry for hijacking this thread but I just want to know Why are mods so strict in here I was banned last night it was supposedly going to be lifted in August, what harm am I actually causing? sorry but I don't want to leave I love TrekBBS

 

[JarodRussell]

An alcoholic doesn't recover from alone. He needs help. But would you say to him that he didn't do better when he went into rehab and maintained being sober for years?

 

[caisson2delta]

I think World War III was (even if unintentionally) a means of throwing some realism into the future. Yes, Trek suggests that things will get better and that there are some amazing things awaiting us, but it won't be all just cheery and light--there will be some dark times along the way too.

I believe that the term "we bettered ourselves" is perfectly valid--in comparison to pre-World War III Humans. While you can argue over the particulars, I think it generally means that Earth nations stopped waging wars upon one another and began cooperating more.

Personally, I believe a lot of that had to do with the global realization (or confirmation) that Humans truly weren't alone in the Universe anymore, and that we had to get our house in order if we wanted to be a part of the larger galactic community--of something better than they currently had.

You hit the nail on the head with this statement and it is my sentiments as well. I think humanity was able to flourish by making first contact with the Vulcans. This group of humans was able to see "the bigger picture" so to speak and put aside their differences to work together, for a better future.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Personally, I believe a lot of that had to do with the global realization (or confirmation) that Humans truly weren't alone in the Universe anymore, and that we had to get our house in order if we wanted to be a part of the larger galactic community--of something better than they currently had.

You hit the nail on the head with this statement and it is my sentiments as well. I think humanity was able to flourish by making first contact with the Vulcans. This group of humans was able to see "the bigger picture" so to speak and put aside their differences to work together, for a better future.

I agree as well. It was not the help of Vulcans that made Humanity better, but the fact that we knew we were not alone. There were people out there, aware of us, watching us, and shaking their heads at the stupidity of mankind.

It was shame, our sins being brought out in the open for everyone to see, that helped us putting all that shit behind us and try to be a better species. Only accepting shame and responsibility for our past we could move on into the galactic stage.

 

[Timo]

The whole point of Star Trek is that it's an optomistic future. We've bettered outselves and are no longer racist, sexist, murdering, raping, genocidal monsters.

...Then why do the episodes that introduce us to Star Trek rotate around human trafficking, drug addiction, mad scientists, criminals and people who exploit them, war, strife amongs colleagues, mass murder and revenge?

The first half of the first season features perhaps one episode where humanity is portrayed in a vaguely positive light: "Corbomite Maneuver". That is, if we exclude poor Bailey from humanity... Scant cause for optimism there - except of the sort where we acknowledge our failings and push on, because that's what we've always been good at. WWIII might be a prime example of that!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[plynch]

The first half of the first season features perhaps one episode where humanity is portrayed in a vaguely positive light: "Corbomite Maneuver".

People make good points about human failings continuing into teh 23rd c. The multiethnic bridge crew, I think, was meant to imply we had gotten past racial prejudices.

(Then in TNG, IIRC GR decreed no strife among the Ent-D crew, as a sign that our basic psychology HAD changed by then.)

I would agree with the OP that FC Vulcan plot does -- at least somewhat --undercut the whole maturing of humanity thing.

 

[The Wormhole]

Star Trek's "optimistic future" is simple: humanity learns to get along, Earth becomes a united world and the capital of the galaxy's largest interstellar alliance. WWIII's purpose is to show that before we become the great world that could, we must endure hell to get there.

 

[scotpens]

...Then why do the episodes that introduce us to Star Trek rotate around human trafficking, drug addiction, mad scientists, criminals and people who exploit them, war, strife amongs colleagues, mass murder and revenge?

Because that's the stuff of drama. That's the sort of material that all drama, including science fiction, has been based on for centuries, if not millennia.

 

[boobatuba]

Sorry for hijacking this thread but I just want to know Why are mods so strict in here I was banned last night it was supposedly going to be lifted in August, what harm am I actually causing? sorry but I don't want to leave I love TrekBBS

Maybe you should just PM a mod instead of creating more usernames and hijacking threads. Startrekk, chriskirkgeek...any more?

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

Also things seem to have gotten worse before they got better. Q's court of 2079 didn't exactly seem the product of an enlightened society.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Also things seem to have gotten worse before they got better. Q's court of 2079 didn't exactly seem the product of an enlightened society.

Yeah, the change didn't happen overnight after first contact. Once it finally got started, things moved very quickly, but by 2079 there still wasn't a unified government in place on Earth, and there were some places on the planet that were still in the midst of the post-atomic horror.

 

[DevilEyes]

...Then why do the episodes that introduce us to Star Trek rotate around human trafficking, drug addiction, mad scientists, criminals and people who exploit them, war, strife amongs colleagues, mass murder and revenge?

Because that's the stuff of drama. That's the sort of material that all drama, including science fiction, has been based on for centuries, if not millennia.

Of course it is, but you're missing the point. From what we see in Trek (as opposed to what we hear in captains' speeches, or how some fans interpret them), humans did not literally "evolve" into people who are no longer racist, sexist, murdering, raping, genocidal (as the OP states). Human society has evolved to something better, but there are still all kinds of individual humans, including the racist, crazy, power-obsessed, murdering, raping, or genocidal ones. Which makes a lot more sense anyway.

 

[barnaclelapse]

The whole point of Star Trek is that it's an optomistic future. We've bettered outselves and are no longer racist, sexist, murdering, raping, genocidal monsters. A nice idea indeed.
Problem: We didn't better ourselves. The Vulcans bettered us. Humans started a nuclear war that effectively ended civilization and killed countless millions. A group of Vulcans descend into Montana and help us rebuild, and ultimately set us on the path to the "better" humans seen in ENT/TOS/TNG/etc. If the Vulcans hadn't arrived, humanity may have died a slow, lingering radioactive death.

According to First Contact and Enterprise, the whole idea that "we can do better" is false. It's actually "aliens come and show us the way after we fuck up".

I enjoyed First Contact (and Enterprise) a lot, but I thought it undermined Trek's fundamental message.
It would be nice if we got there on our own, without having to destroy ourselves first.

There had to be something good, strong etc for the Vulcans to approach in the first place, right?

Meeting some aliens is fine, but it takes more to get out there into the universe than that, and the human race clearly managed to get just enough right to pull it off.

If that makes any sense.

 

[3D Master]

The whole point of Star Trek is that it's an optomistic future. We've bettered outselves and are no longer racist, sexist, murdering, raping, genocidal monsters. A nice idea indeed.
Problem: We didn't better ourselves. The Vulcans bettered us. Humans started a nuclear war that effectively ended civilization and killed countless millions. A group of Vulcans descend into Montana and help us rebuild, and ultimately set us on the path to the "better" humans seen in ENT/TOS/TNG/etc. If the Vulcans hadn't arrived, humanity may have died a slow, lingering radioactive death.

According to First Contact and Enterprise, the whole idea that "we can do better" is false. It's actually "aliens come and show us the way after we fuck up".

I enjoyed First Contact (and Enterprise) a lot, but I thought it undermined Trek's fundamental message.
It would be nice if we got there on our own, without having to destroy ourselves first.

No, Vulcans did not better us, WE bettered OURSELVES. It's just that meeting the Vulcans right after we nearly annihilated ourselves, is what propelled us forward to do so.

Meeting the Andorians would have had the same result, same way with the Tellarites or the Nausicans.

And WWIII comes from the original series, so...

 

[Biggshow]

...Then why do the episodes that introduce us to Star Trek rotate around human trafficking, drug addiction, mad scientists, criminals and people who exploit them, war, strife amongs colleagues, mass murder and revenge?

Because that's the stuff of drama. That's the sort of material that all drama, including science fiction, has been based on for centuries, if not millennia.

Of course it is, but you're missing the point. From what we see in Trek (as opposed to what we hear in captains' speeches, or how some fans interpret them), humans did not literally "evolve" into people who are no longer racist, sexist, murdering, raping, genocidal (as the OP states). Human society has evolved to something better, but there are still all kinds of individual humans, including the racist, crazy, power-obsessed, murdering, raping, or genocidal ones. Which makes a lot more sense anyway.

Exactly. This is why when these individuals are shown, they are almost always looked at as monsters even, perhaps, moreso than we now regard such people. In other words, in the ST universe, these persons are very much the exception rather than the rule. It is also why we sometimes see our main characters struggle with their own inner demons; our basic human nature hasn't changed but the society has.

So far as WWIII and the Vulcans, these are two reasons (among many, I'm sure) why the collective society of Earth decided it had to change but we did it ourselves. Even today, without an actual WWIII or Vulcans, humans are becoming less violent, regardless of what you see in the news (With regard to appearances, FBI statistics on violent crime show those figures in an ongoing downward trend but media coverage is up giving a skewed perception of the actual reality of the situation).