How do so many people know about the Time War? (Spoilers)
- Thread starter EJA
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Well, inconsequential plot inconsistencies are one thing, but when the plots are so full of absurdity as many during the RTD era were, then it's clear the only way to enjoy it really is to just switch your brain off and look at the pretty CGI. This certainly isn't true of all stories of that time, but certainly of most of RTD's and it was a definite trend.
For me, an example of inconsequential plot inconsistencies (might have to start copying and pasting that or calling it IPI) not ruining it is The Beast Below, which is easily my favourite of the series so far and one of my favourite DW episodes. It's got plot flaws if you look closely enough, but it's interesting, funny, moving, and it's doing what DW should be doing: it's showing us new things and ideas we've not seen before (don't mention Encounter at Farpoint, it's miles better). Compared to some some backward rubbish like the RTD series finales, it's a different class.
All in all, it's just a matter of degree and what we're willing to accept in exchange for our suspension of disbelief. And I'd say that about fiction in general. Lots of people were willing to disregard plot holes in the most overblown RTD episodes because they thought these episodes were entertaining, funny, well-acted, full of memorable characters and lines, etc.
I've met people on the other hand for whom plot consistency was so important than they were unable to relate to any form of fiction if the plot wasn't airtight. Which didn't happen very often considering that some of their quibbles were things like "character X would never behave like that!". "Well he did", being the only reasonable rebuttal.
I think you're playing down the absurdity of many of RTD's stories. It was often to a point that you really couldn't enjoy it if you left your brain thinking. I often get the impression that people are quick to defend him because they think he brought the show back, and because it's successful we have no right to complain too much. But I'm more interested in good stories, and genuinely good stories from RTD were like hens' teeth.
That's where you draw the line. Many people - in fact millions of people - found a way to enjoy it.
Many millions of people find a way to enjoy watching Ant and Dec gurning around while a non-celebrity gobs up a kangaroo's teste. More to the point, Avatar's become the biggest film ever, and that has a plot based entirely around everyone being a one-dimensional idiot. It was successful because it was nice enough to look at. Doctor Who has been successful for the same reasons - style over substance. Again, many of the plots bear little scrutiny and rely on you switching your brain off. Just because millions of people manage that (and they're fairly fickle millions considering the battering the show took when Britain's Got Talent was scheduled against Silence in the Library) doesn't give it a single jot of additional artistic merit.
But then this should be intuitive. You don't really need me to tell you why millions of people liking something doesn't necessarily make it good.
But then this should be intuitive. You don't really need me to tell you why millions of people liking something doesn't necessarily make it good.
Avatar is obviously not very original and it may have some plot holes and stock characters but it looks great, it has a tight-written script, relatable characters with fully developed arcs, and a very traditional yet quite effective fairytale plot. People were entertained by it, thrilled by it, moved by it. It's not a perfect movie, but it's the perfect example of a movie where almost every aspect works, and that some people hate because of inconsequential plot inconsistencies.
That is self-evident, but you hate people, I love them, so our perspective is bound to be a little different.
Because the Timelords exist outside of time. So if the time war is still ongoing at that time then they exist still. However when it was finished they didn't exist. The end of the time war hadn't happened if we follow timelords timestream only.
Why would they? The Reapers showed up, and the dialogue says right then and there that Time Lords prevent them from showing up. No Time Lords = No Reaper protection.
But again, you're thinking of it in a linear fashion. As pointed out above, even successive battles in the Time War, including battles that took place during the old series, happened seemingly out of sequence to us, but perfectly in sequence to those who were actually in the war itself.
Some of these events happened in the old series, ergo to blame the new series for this is pretty haphazard. Besides, how many seemingly "contradictory" events happened in just the old series? How many times can the Earth blow up, Atlantis sink, and the Titanic crash?
Remember, time isn't a single strand of string, it's a big ball of yarn.
That was not meant as an attack. Since you're constantly repeating that "people are idiots" I thought that was something you were comfortable with. I didn't understand that it was just a joke. I'm sorry.
The thing I most dislike about the internet is the polarisation, the black/white right/left no inbetween.
The reality about how (dare I say) most people perceive RTD is somewhere in between. He is neither a talentless hack, nor a genius--however on occasions he has the potential to be either depending on how much he reigned himself in.
And people don't think he brought the show back, he did bring the show back. You can hate the guy, find nothing he ever does of any value, but you cannot deny the facts of the matter. He pushed and proved to the BBC that Dr Who could be brought back and could have mass appeal. Was he the only man who could do that, no of course not, but that doesn't devalue the achievment.
Personally I find people who do nothing but praise RTD to be incredibly dull and predicatable...kinda similar to people who always slag him off really.
OK, so if the destruction of Gallifrey and the Time Lords always happens in the distant past of the rest of the universe, then how come no one ever mentions this to the Doctor in the classic series, remarking that he's the last of the Time Lord race, as they seem to always be doing in NuWho? In the classic show, the Time Lords are always around, wherever and whenever you go.
IMO the BBC novels did a better job at depicting Gallifrey's destruction. Gallifrey didn't just blow up, it was erased from existence, and because of this the Time Lords never existed in the first place, not even as memories, making the Doctor more of an anomaly. Far more logical than what you have in NuWho.
I have read that there are books which posit that Gallifrey only exists relative to Earth in Earth's distant past, but unfortunately this theory doesn't hold water. The Brain of Morbius was set on Karn, a world quite close to Gallifrey and important to the Time Lords, in Earth's distant future.
Yes, I'm aware that time isn't always linear in the Whoniverse, but let me describe a scenario to you: As part of the Time War, a major battle is fought between the Time Lords and the Daleks across a whole star system, which the indigenous inhabitants observe. Sometime later, the Ninth Doctor comes back here to tell everyone that the War is over and both sides have been utterly wiped out and he is now the last of his kind (from his POV). Understandably, the people might be a bit angry at him for being one of those who caused so much destruction and might even taunt him about being the last Gallifreyan. But after the Ninth Doc has departed, the Fourth Doc turns up and introduces himself, having not experienced the prior events yet in his personal timeline. There's no way he won't find out about the events that are to come. And even if he doesn't land in the exact same place as his future self did, news like this would surely get around. Kind of like in Battlefield, where the knights from the parallel universe recognised the Doctor as Merlin - before he'd even done any of the things they knew him for. Those events had already happened, the Doctor just hadn't personally experienced them yet. Same with the Time War.
I have read that there are books which posit that Gallifrey only exists relative to Earth in Earth's distant past, but unfortunately this theory doesn't hold water. The Brain of Morbius was set on Karn, a world quite close to Gallifrey and important to the Time Lords, in Earth's distant future.
Yes, I'm aware that time isn't always linear in the Whoniverse, but let me describe a scenario to you: As part of the Time War, a major battle is fought between the Time Lords and the Daleks across a whole star system, which the indigenous inhabitants observe. Sometime later, the Ninth Doctor comes back here to tell everyone that the War is over and both sides have been utterly wiped out and he is now the last of his kind (from his POV). Understandably, the people might be a bit angry at him for being one of those who caused so much destruction and might even taunt him about being the last Gallifreyan. But after the Ninth Doc has departed, the Fourth Doc turns up and introduces himself, having not experienced the prior events yet in his personal timeline. There's no way he won't find out about the events that are to come. And even if he doesn't land in the exact same place as his future self did, news like this would surely get around. Kind of like in Battlefield, where the knights from the parallel universe recognised the Doctor as Merlin - before he'd even done any of the things they knew him for. Those events had already happened, the Doctor just hadn't personally experienced them yet. Same with the Time War.
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Who is to say he didn't? Who is to say that this kind of "temporal rumor" isn't what defines The Doctor we know? Remember, his entire origin is shrouded in secrecy. There might be a very good reason for this on his part. Who is to say that The Doctor didn't hide The Hand of Omega on Earth in order to use in the upcoming conflict?
Ah, but that's a tricky topic. You see, it was the First Doctor who hid the Hand of Omega on Earth, right before he first met Barbara and Ian, and before his first encounter with the Daleks. So he couldn't have originally had the Daleks in mind when he hid the Hand, because he didn't know about them at the time. It seems more likely to me that he originally took the Hand from Gallifrey and arranged to have it secreted away simply to avoid its power being misused, and it wasn't until his seventh life that he formulated the plan to use it against the Daleks.
^I agree, if you look at it as linear, the First Doctor would not have hid it away from The Daleks, per se. But, let's say Hartnell Doctor, younger, encounters some epic peek into the future of his race. He sees The War. He doesn't know what the Daleks are, but it doesn't matter. A war means there is an enemy. So, he hides this weapon away on a remote planet.
Certainly, it's all retroactive continuity. But, then again, I think it's been retconned that The Doctor has always known about Daleks, just like his race would. Wasn't the intent of Genesis of the Daleks to retcon the history the Daleks, per Terry Nation?
Of course, speculation is simply fun. But, the honest, real-world answer is obvious...
Certainly, it's all retroactive continuity. But, then again, I think it's been retconned that The Doctor has always known about Daleks, just like his race would. Wasn't the intent of Genesis of the Daleks to retcon the history the Daleks, per Terry Nation?
Of course, speculation is simply fun. But, the honest, real-world answer is obvious...
I just figure that the Time Lock wiped the Daleks and the Time Lords out of the rest of history and locked them in their own temporal bubble to fight the Time War until one of them beat the other and therefore could restore themselves to history, but that the Doctor then went and wiped both of them out, thereby wiping both from history. More advanced species who can detect changes in the timeline would have memories and records of the Daleks and Time Lords, or at least legends, and less advanced species wouldn't even know history had been changed.