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What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

Yes. It's like saying all your food and cooking utensils are all gone in your far way from civilization log cabin and your being vocally negative about the situation. That's not to say that you still can't make a spear and hunt. Tuvok was simply having a slight pessimistic point of view at that specific moment. He was simply pointing out that the torpedoes can't be replaced at the next nearest Federation starbase (so easily). Not that they couldn't go out and get the materials needed and be inventive in creating their own custom made torpedoes.

Oh, and I am definitely going to be re-watching VOY's "Nothing Human" to address the concerns with that episode, too.
 
It is very frustrating that I have to repeat this over and over: if the hologram was not sentient, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for him to do or say things that the Doctor didn't program him to do. It is illogical. It is stupid. It's like the episode was written by children or for children, so the idea was to make everything as simple as possible, even at the expense of sacrificing logic: if we make a hologram based on a database about Moset's medical data, then it has to look like Moset, too, and if it looks like Moset, then it has to act like Moset.

DE:

1. The program of Moset was simply acting in accordance with the behavioral historical record. That is before Moset was given knowledge of his real life crimes (that Starfleet wasn't aware of), it could very well be that it was public knowledge to some that Moset was a bit cold hearted (after one were to get into a deeper conversation with him). This could have played into his more real to life behavior after the Doctor had given him new knowledge of his character. In fact, prior to the Moset Hologram learning of his real life crimes, it is already shown or hinted that Moset is a bit unsympathetic or coldly methodical in his medical procedures when it comes to attaining his medical goals.

2. The program of Moset defends himself saying he didn't do the crimes that the Doctor mentioned and he is simply a hologram. Now, as for the Moset Hologram taking on the beliefs of the real Moset: it's quite possible the program was simply being adaptive to being more like the real thing when it was given new knowledge of it's character from the Doctor. In fact, in TNG's "11001001", the Bynars enhance the Enterprise's holodeck to make the holograms become more adaptive and seem more true to life or real.

3. It is not an impossibility that whoever recorded Moset's behavioral records into the Starfleet database did it a little too well. Maybe the person who recorded Moset's behavior interviewed a few people who might have suspected Moset and or didn't like him. Maybe a Maquis spy back in the Alpha Quadrant hinted at the truth of his real behavior in the Starfleet database before Voyager got lost in the Delta Quadrant.

Anything else might be too complicated for the viewers to understand, let's just keep it simple.

As you know: communication or getting your plot point across is an important goal for every script. So, in Voyager's "Nothing Human", we learn that the plot point was to show us the ethical struggles when using knowledge obtained by unethical means. In other words, lets say the Moset Hologram did in fact act more innocent and or become horrified as a result of hearing his real life crimes; how is that going to service the conflict of the story line then? Especially when Moset is the very personification of that idea.

The Starfleet database was partial and flawed in that it didn't contain any data about Moset's crimes, about the way he got his research, and it also had no data about his real personality.

Kim says... "Computer: transfer all reference medical files to the simulation."

The computer replies... "Transfer complete."

Kim then says..."Now install personality sub routines and voice approximation."

In fact, it was Janeway's initial idea to use the medical database and combine it with a real life medical specialist based as close as possible to the real person within the form of a Hologram.

There is no way that any of that information could have become a part of the hologram on its own, if it wasn't in the data that the Doctor used or if the Doctor didn't add it on his own, which is obviously not the case. For a sentient hologram to start acting like real Moset for no discernible reason is really far-fetched and inexplicable; for a non-sentient hologram to start acting like - presumably - Moset would, rather than what the Doctor would want his assistant to act, is impossible. Unless a wizard did it.

1. The Holo program could have been adaptive in wanting to become more like the real thing. Just like the Doctor became more adaptive and grew outside his original programing.

2. The person who compiled Moset's behavior for Starfleet, did his job a little too well (without confirmation or knowledge of his crimes).

3. A Maquis spy could have added a subtle but true record on Moset's psychological profile into Starfleet's behavioral database.


Oh, and as for the morale difference between using Borg technology vs Moset's knowledge:

1. The Borg don't act in malice. They are like a storm. They're very existence is to assimilate. It is who they are. Granted, it doesn't seem right that the Voyager crew would use Borg technology because it is from destroyed civilizations or worlds. However, the Borg have been a lethal enemy of the Federation. And gaining any tactical edge to defeat them, especially in the Delta Quadrant has less to do with morals and more to do with survival than anything else. Besides, none of the Voyager crew are deeply effected in any way in using Borg technology in order to defend or help the ship.

2. The existence of the Moset program is a different case. People on board Voyager had been deeply effected by the cruelty of the Cardassians. In fact, they became outcasts of the Federation because of them. Letting the Moset program or his knowledge continuing to go forward would essentially be an insult to everything that the Maquis used to be and or stand for.

Sources:
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Nothing_Human
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/11001001_(episode)
 
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why is always voyager the target for this nitpicking? the other shows are a lot worse. just watched tng's 'tin man', what took me almost two days, putting me to sleep last night. dreadful stuff. well, data proudly states 'there is no natural phenomenon travelling at warp velocity!' there isn't? did he forget the crystalline entity? his positronic brain isn't supposed to do that. and whatever propelled sisko's silly solar sailer to warp, was a natural phenomenon as well. i'm sure there were many more.
at the end of the episode, wesley declares that tin man has hurled them 3.8 bln km away from their last position near a sun, a journey that lasted a few seconds. still the very same pan shot, worf cries 'captain, on screen!' on screen, the sun is going supernova. 3.8 bln km is a substantial distance, even the light of a supernova needs a couple of hours to cross it. voyager did not make this sort of childish mistakes.
 
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Yes. And I am sure someone out there has come up with some type of fanon explanation for those conundrums, as well.
 
Oh, and as for the morale difference between using Borg technology vs Moset's knowledge:

1. The Borg don't act in malice. They are like a storm. They're very existence is to assimilate. It is who they are.
That's... a very odd "defense" of the Borg. :cardie: Using that logic, I don't know if we could condemn Crell Moset, either: there's no evidence that he acted out of malice, that he wanted to hurt the Bajoran patients he was experimenting on; it's far more likely that he just wanted to get the results and didn't care what he did to some Bajorans in order to get it, just like the Borg want to add technological distinctiveness to their own and don't care who they hurt in the process.


Granted, it doesn't seem right that the Voyager crew would use Borg technology because it is from destroyed civilizations or worlds. However, the Borg have been a lethal enemy of the Federation. And gaining any tactical edge to defeat them, especially in the Delta Quadrant has less to do with morals and more to do with survival than anything else.
A cure is also useful for survival.

Besides, none of the Voyager crew are deeply effected in any way in using Borg technology in order to defend or help the ship.
2. The existence of the Moset program is a different case. People on board Voyager had been deeply effected by the cruelty of the Cardassians. In fact, they became outcasts of the Federation because of them. Letting the Moset program or his knowledge continuing to go forward would essentially be an insult to everything that the Maquis used to be and or stand for.
So their morals change according to who they have on the ship? If, say, they had Ben or Jake Sisko on the ship, would they stop using Borg technology? :shifty:

why is always voyager the target for this nitpicking?
In this case, I'd say it's because the thread title is "What continuity errors are there on Voyager?" ;)
 
Oh, and as for the morale difference between using Borg technology vs Moset's knowledge:

1. The Borg don't act in malice. They are like a storm. They're very existence is to assimilate. It is who they are.
That's... a very odd "defense" of the Borg.

DE:

Actually, it is not my defense. The concept of the Borg being a mindless storm was presented to us in VOY's "Hope and Fear"...

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/65382


Using that logic, I don't know if we could condemn Crell Moset, either: there's no evidence that he acted out of malice, that he wanted to hurt the Bajoran patients he was experimenting on; it's far more likely that he just wanted to get the results and didn't care what he did to some Bajorans in order to get it, just like the Borg want to add technological distinctiveness to their own and don't care who they hurt in the process.

There are two clear differences between the Borg and Crell Moset situation on Voyager.

1. It's been established many times over that the Borg in the hive mind don't have individual thoughts or morale centers telling them what is right or wrong. However, we have only seen Crell Moset once and don't know whether or not he was a sociopath (i.e. unable to feel empathy) or not. He simply could have been forced to find a cure for various diseases as an attempt to heal someone that he loves very deeply for all we know.

2. See the explanation in my following reply. *


Granted, it doesn't seem right that the Voyager crew would use Borg technology because it is from destroyed civilizations or worlds. However, the Borg have been a lethal enemy of the Federation. And gaining any tactical edge to defeat them, especially in the Delta Quadrant has less to do with morals and more to do with survival than anything else.
A cure is also useful for survival.

* Yes. But an exo-biologist is less imperative seeing that he could potentially cure the ship in a worst case scenario or a few crew members versus a deadly collective enemy that they keep running into that puts the entire ship in danger. Now, if the entire crew depended on an exo-biologist as a whole in order to survive in the Delta Quadrant, then that would be different.

Besides, none of the Voyager crew are deeply effected in any way in using Borg technology in order to defend or help the ship.
2. The existence of the Moset program is a different case. People on board Voyager had been deeply effected by the cruelty of the Cardassians. In fact, they became outcasts of the Federation because of them. Letting the Moset program or his knowledge continuing to go forward would essentially be an insult to everything that the Maquis used to be and or stand for.
So their morals change according to who they have on the ship? If, say, they had Ben or Jake Sisko on the ship, would they stop using Borg technology?

Yes. Lets say the USS Saratoga got lost (Instead of Voyager) in the Delta Quadrant and the Vulcan Captain died when they got there. Let's say the Borg eventually end up indirectly killing Jennifer again when Sisko later runs into them in the Delta Quadrant at the end of Season 3 (along with various other crew members). Would I blame Sisko and his son if they passed up on using Borg technology to protect themselves? No. I would sympathize with Sisko and his son's situation and understand that using such technology would be condoning the pain and suffering of millions of lives that they are personally feeling themselves. However, if I knew they could move beyond the pain and suffering they felt for their loved ones in order to protect the ship at some point down the line than that it is up to them and their situation of survival and or personal morals they are willing to live with.

In other words: the senior staff and or a percentage of the crew member's feelings on board the ship has to be taken into account, because they each have unique experiences that influence the ship a certain way that guides them. To not be considerate of others or one's own feelings on a particular issue can be potentially harmful or cause inefficiency as a collective crew of a starship.

It would be like allowing large cases of alcohol to stay on board a ship that was full of alcoholics.

It would be like Archer kicking his sub commander off the ship (the first chance he got) in order to line his ship with Trellium-D instead of trying to find a way to navigate around the anomalies of the Expanse.


Sources:
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Hope_and_Fear
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Crell_Moset
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/USS_Saratoga_(NCC-31911)
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Trellium
 
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There was an ep where Tuvok said that they have "no way to replace them once they are gone".

Which is just stupid. Replicators can produce the parts, and they can get antimatter from the engines.
But that's a very boring solution to the problem. :vulcan:

When some of us heard Tuvok saying that line we imagined stories that could be based around the concept, stories involving Voyager getting involved with shady characters in the weapon's trade and having to make choices about whether to buy those weapons or to conserve what they have. For me personally, the fact that they chose to just magic up some new torpedoes using replicators is a far, far less interesting solution to the problem than what we could have seen.

One episode, that's all it would have taken. It could have replaced something rubbish, such as Fortunate Son. Admittedly, there was one episode where Voyager went buying weapons (Retrospect), but rather than explore the morality of the weapons trade they did a plot about something else and the episode ended without them buying any weapons.
 
I think Voyager was trying to be more like TNG than DS9. It was more focused on a sense of exploration and moral issues than it was concerned about detailed long story arcs (i.e. Dominion War, Bajor joining the Federation), technology (i.e. Holo-Emitters, TR-116 rifles, self replicating cloaked mines), realistic or dark scenarios (i.e. Nog losing his leg, Section 31 infecting Odo, Sisko lying to get the Romulans to join the War), and character progression (i.e. Nog, Kira, and Bashir).

For me: The torpedoes issue is like not seeing the crew members going to the bathroom. Sure, I sometimes wonder what the Star Trek toilet looks like. But I don't need to see every little detail in order to know that certain things just exist or just naturally happen in the space between episodes or certain scenes on the show.
 
I think Voyager was trying to be more like TNG than DS9. It was more focused on a sense of exploration and moral issues than it was concerned about detailed long story arcs (i.e. Dominion War, Bajor joining the Federation), technology (i.e. Holo-Emitters, TR-116 rifles, self replicating cloaked mines), realistic or dark scenarios (i.e. Nog losing his leg, Section 31 infecting Odo, Sisko lying to get the Romulans to join the War), and character progression (i.e. Nog, Kira, and Bashir).

For me: The torpedoes issue is like not seeing the crew members going to the bathroom. Sure, I sometimes wonder what the Star Trek toilet looks like. But I don't need to see every little detail in order to know that certain things just exist or need to naturally happen in the space between episodes or certain scenes.
I feel the same way.
Plus, I think if you've been watching Trek since TNG. You can figure out how all that stuff gets done if you pay attention to the small talk too.

While DS9 was on, it wasn't pulling a strong audience as it's lead in show TNG. Many hated DS9 at first simply because they didn't go anywhere and considered a Trek w/ no ship, not Trek. So it was a logical choice to make Voyager more like the Trek that was successful than the one that wasn't. It was in hindsight that die hard fans wanted Voy. to be like DS9. By then it was too late in the game to make Voy. any different than what it was.
 
I think Voyager was trying to be more like TNG than DS9. It was more focused on a sense of exploration and moral issues...
Which is exactly why there should have been a story about buying weapons, that's a huge moral issue right there. Is it right to purchase weapons for self defence from an arms dealer that is also selling weapons that are being used in a genocide? Is the arms dealer responsible for the deaths or are they just selling merchandise and have no responsibility as to what their customers do with the weapons?

The sad thing is that this was a perfect story for Voyager given their situation, but instead DS9 was the show to take it up and made it into a pretty good Quark episode (Business as Usual).

For me: The torpedoes issue is like not seeing the crew members going to the bathroom.
No, it's absolutely nothing like that. Can you think up of a good story with moral implications involving a toilet? :p
 
Which is exactly why there should have been a story about buying weapons, that's a huge moral issue right there. Is it right to purchase weapons for self defence from an arms dealer that is also selling weapons that are being used in a genocide? Is the arms dealer responsible for the deaths or are they just selling merchandise and have no responsibility as to what their customers do with the weapons?

The sad thing is that this was a perfect story for Voyager given their situation, but instead DS9 was the show to take it up and made it into a pretty good Quark episode (Business as Usual).

Then the complaint would be that Voyager is rehashing stories already been done on other Treks.
 
Which is exactly why there should have been a story about buying weapons, that's a huge moral issue right there. Is it right to purchase weapons for self defence from an arms dealer that is also selling weapons that are being used in a genocide? Is the arms dealer responsible for the deaths or are they just selling merchandise and have no responsibility as to what their customers do with the weapons?

TGB:

For me, I didn't miss seeing an episode like that on Voyager. Especially seeing we already got an episode like that on Deep Space Nine. Call it a taste preference, but it just didn't bother me that the torpedo issue was not spelled out or addressed later within the show. It wasn't like the series broke canon like Enterprise and showed us a Romulan de-cloak within the 22nd Century or anything silly.

Oh, and although Janeway and Chakotay confirm the 38 torpedo situation in the episode titled "The Cloud" here...

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/65444

We also have to look at the context of the situation that the crew was under at the time, though. They are still just trying to figure out how to survive after arriving in the Delta Quadrant (after just 5 episodes in). They are desperate for supplies and are counting every little last precious resource they have left. They are just now barely figuring out on how to look for those resources in the most efficient possible way at the start of their journey (when their are no viable alternatives or options available to them yet)...

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/65450

The sad thing is that this was a perfect story for Voyager given their situation, but instead DS9 was the show to take it up and made it into a pretty good Quark episode (Business as Usual).

Yeah, personally I would have loved to have seen Harry and Tom expand the shuttle bay and create and command a fleet of Delta Flyer ships. Also, it would been cool to see Tuvok put together a Special Elite Force sort of like in the Voyager Elite Force Video Game, too. However, I am totally okay with the way the show as it stands. It wasn't meant to be a more realistic drama like Deep Space Nine that tackled areas that no other Star Trek dare tackle. Voyager was TNG that was pretty much stranded far far away in another Quadrant in the galaxy trying to get back home. However, for me it was better than TNG because I enjoyed the characters more and felt for their unified desire in wanting to collectively accomplish a goal together that was very close and dear to their hearts.

For me: The torpedoes issue is like not seeing the crew members going to the bathroom. No, it's absolutely nothing like that. Can you think up of a good story with moral implications involving a toilet?

Toilet Story Pitch:

After visiting a planet on an away mission by shuttle: One of the crew members gets deathly sick and hurls into the Waste Extraction Unit (i.e. toilet) in a cornered off decontaminated area of the ship. He then activates the WEU to convert the vomit into re-usable energy for the ship, but during the process the sickness from the vomit mutates into an energy form and infects the bio neural circuitry and the food replicators and other key systems on board the ship. Eventually, the crew member dies a horrible death and the infection keeps spreading through out the rest of the ship claiming more victims as it spreads.


Side Note:

Actually, now that I think about it. Archer, Trip, and a Xindi use a multi alien waste reservoir (i.e. toilet) in order to escape and continue on with their mission. So in a way. There already was a toilet as part of an episode on Star Trek.

:D
 
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Then the complaint would be that Voyager is rehashing stories already been done on other Treks.
My point was that Voyager should have done it first.

Even still, a good writer should be able to come up with ideas. For example, in place of Retrospect there could have been an episode about how Voyager is low on torpedoes and wont be able to fend off another Hirogen attack. They meet some friendly aliens that agree to sell them weapons, but it turns out that in return they want Voyager to carry out some sort of rescue operation on an enemy of their by using Voyager's transporters (something these aliens don't have). Janeway is hesitant but has no choice as she needs to weapons, but it turns out that there is no rescue, the aliens are planning to assassinate the head of their enemy's government, so Janeway refuses to help and she goes on her way. The following week Voyager is captured by the Hirogen. We get a torpedo story, and a little bit of continuity.

It's not a great idea, but I'm not paid to think up great ideas, I'm sure a professional writer could manage something much more interesting.

TGB:

For me, I didn't miss seeing an episode like that on Voyager.
But I did.

You're not going to convince me otherwise, and I'm not going to convince you, I'm just pointing out that when I complain about the torpedo situation on Voyager I'm not saying it would have been impossible for them to replicate torpedoes, just that I was hoping for something different.

It wasn't like the series broke canon like Enterprise and showed us a Romulan de-cloak within the 22nd Century or anything silly.
Sure, there's a continuity issue there, but I'm willing to forgive it because Minefield was a mildly interesting story that did something unique; they set it on the hull of the ship with some great visuals. It also had some important character development for Reed.

That episode could have been about any old race, it didn't have to be the Romulans, but they were planning on introducing the Romulans at some point so they decided to do it there. Perhaps that was a mistake, I don't know.

Toilet Story Pitch:

After visiting a planet on an away mission by shuttle: One of the crew members gets deathly sick and hurls into the Waste Extraction Unit (i.e. toilet) in a cornered off decontaminated area of the ship. He then activates the WEU to convert the vomit into re-usable energy for the ship, but during the process the sickness from the vomit mutates into an energy form and infects the bio neural circuitry and the food replicators and other key systems on board the ship. Eventually, the crew member dies a horrible death and the infection keeps spreading through out the rest of the ship claiming more victims as it spreads.
Hmm, throw in a guest-villain role to be played by Vaughn Armstrong and I think you're on to something! :techman:
 
Then the complaint would be that Voyager is rehashing stories already been done on other Treks.
My point was that Voyager should have done it first.

Even still, a good writer should be able to come up with ideas. For example, in place of Retrospect there could have been an episode about how Voyager is low on torpedoes and wont be able to fend off another Hirogen attack. They meet some friendly aliens that agree to sell them weapons, but it turns out that in return they want Voyager to carry out some sort of rescue operation on an enemy of their by using Voyager's transporters (something these aliens don't have). Janeway is hesitant but has no choice as she needs to weapons, but it turns out that there is no rescue, the aliens are planning to assassinate the head of their enemy's government, so Janeway refuses to help and she goes on her way. The following week Voyager is captured by the Hirogen. We get a torpedo story, and a little bit of continuity.

It's not a great idea, but I'm not paid to think up great ideas, I'm sure a professional writer could manage something much more interesting.
First off, they are professional writers.

What you've given as a story is called a screenplay. A pre-existing skeleton of a story where you simply change the names. It takes a good professional writer to create a story that doesn't go down the predicable path. I think the ep. does just that by making the subject about a possible physical violation instead of the obvious weapons scenario.
 
Maybe the question should be, why question fiction so seriously?

Exodus:

Everything in life whether it be fictional or non fictional has a truth to what it is and what it is not. People can twist their perception of what something is or not is. But it doesn't change the reality of that fictional creation or real life story.

I mean, I can say that a certain series doesn't exist or a certain event or episode didn't happen. But it wouldn't be accurate because the studio (who are the authority makers) clearly tell us that all of the TV series and films are canon.

The question is, why does it bother you that I do like to look for the truth or accuracy of things (whether it be fictional or non fictional)?
 
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