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Desperate Situation--Which Captain Would You Want in Charge?

And who's to say that a commander who is strong in wartime wouldn't be a good choice in peace? It's really a pretty poor idea to assume that such commanders are somehow incapable of conducting themselves in different ways according to the situation...that assumption comes from a very distorted idea about the military.
 
And who's to say that a commander who is strong in wartime wouldn't be a good choice in peace?
Because the types of cut-throat decision-making that usually results in a successful war just as often result in tragedies during peacetime. I'd much prefer someone who is just good enough in both aspects to come out of it on top.
 
And what makes you think that a commander who is able to size up a battlefield situation and make the right call--which requires being able to respond in proportion to the situation--couldn't also respond in proportion to a peacetime situation and scale down accordingly?
 
And what makes you think that a commander who is able to size up a battlefield situation and make the right call--which requires being able to respond in proportion to the situation--couldn't also respond in proportion to a peacetime situation and scale down accordingly?

Because "size up the battlefield and make the right call" isn't usually what wins battles. QUICKLY AND IMMEDIATELY making the right call, is. In a pinch there isn't usually enough time to contemplate the moral or strategic implications of those actions or even to second guess, the decision follows from training and instinct, and results in fewer of one's fellow soldiers being killed and more of the enemy being killed or driven away.

Unless you're talking about generals and presidents, effective military leadership just doesn't translate into effective civilian leadership, where actions have much farther reaching consequences. And since we're talking about low-level commanders--Captains of starships and small outposts--the statement stands.

To use examples: Picard isn't a pure military commander, because even when he thinks he's fighting a war (against the Lysians, for example) his moral/ethical circuitry is still firing on all cylinders and he hesitates: "I will not fire on defenseless people." If the Lysians had been anything less than a primitive backwards race he was duped into fighting, they would have annihilated the Enterprise right then and there, but his moral compunctions saved all their lives and probably millions more on their home planet. Had Jellico been on the bridge that day, the Lysians would be extinct by now; on the other hand, Jellico probably won himself a couple of medals and commendations during the dominion war for exactly that sort of quick-thinking "Do everything you have to do" literalism.

But that's one of the reasons why I put in my vote for Spock (some-time Captain of the Enterprise). He can do the logical thing in all situations, sizing up all factors involved, whether it calls for a diplomatic solution, a quick resort to violence, or a logical requirement for a purely emotional response. Human nature doesn't normally leave room for that kind of versatility; we're just not that logical.
 
Captain Jellico. Period. The only military captain, of the 24th century, I would follow into a desperate situation.

yet sisko ran the Dominion War effort, didn't he?

I think jellico had a more military-esque command style. Sisko treated his troops similar to how Picard and Janeway treated theirs.
 
IIRC, Sisko was more of a MacArthur type leader: a patron saint of tricky logistics and clever strategy.

In terms of their respective strengths:
Picard the Mediates his way out of trouble
Janeway [tech]s her way out of trouble
Kirk argues his way out of trouble
Sisko finagles his way out of trouble
Archer stumbles his way out of trouble
 
NTA--your idea that supposedly war commanders are mindless, amoral machines is completely and totally inaccurate. It also shows that you have absolutely ZERO idea what the real-life military is like. Yes, you have to make some decisions quickly in war, but those decisions are parts of longer-term strategies that take time. And even in the process of those quick decisions, there IS thought given to the moral fallout of actions.

You also show a completely incorrect understanding of the rank and duties of a captain--that is NOT a low-level posting at all, but JUST below an admiral...the equivalent of a colonel in the Army and Air Force.

I suspect you're making one of two mistakes here. Either you're confusing a Navy captain with an Air Force captain, which is indeed of a much lower rank and is a junior officer (this is an O-3 rank, the equivalent of a Navy lieutenant) and doesn't get much say in making decisions, or you may be thinking that because a Navy captain commands one ship, this is somehow a "tiny" command, but you clearly have no idea of the scale and scope of what's involved, and the level of strategic thinking that goes into that--and the amount of discretion given to such officers to react to the situation on the ground.

Maybe you would see it better if you look at the kinds of commands an Air Force colonel (equivalent rank) can hold. This particular unit has since been reorganized and renamed, but this is the way it was when I knew its commander--and this is no small organization. The logistics involved are tremendous to maintain something of this size, and as such the commander of a group like this actually has a good bit of autonomy to take the strategy and implement it in a manner that is appropriate to the situation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/463d_Airlift_Group

A Navy captain is of equivalent rank to someone who would be commanding a group of this size in other services. Again--this is no small feat, despite how insignificant you seem to think it is. Hopefully now that you have seen what an O-6 (captain/colonel) is REALLY responsible for, you will appreciate the level of versatility and decision-making capabilities it takes to command such a unit through war AND peace--the kind of combination of short-range AND long-range thinking that is required. I suggest you do your research and gain an appropriate understanding of what it really means to be a military commander and what responsibilities that entails, before you ever again try to diminish the men and women who serve in such positions.

But if you think any soldier who is capable of wartime decisions is nothing but a mindless thug, though, then I have nothing more to say to you; I have no time for those with so little respect for the men and women of the armed forces.
 
It depends what is required to get out of the desperate situation.

If it requires thinking outside the box:

1. Kirk
2. Riker
3. Janeway

If it requires cool, brilliant deduction:

1. Picard
2. Janeway

If it requires pure gumption:

1. Janeway
2. Kirk
3. Sisko

If it requires thoughtful diplomacy:

1. Picard
2. Kirk
3. Janeway

If it required personal combat or iron will:

1. Sisko
2. Kirk

If it required indecision and being a bumbling idiot:

1. Archer
 
NTA--your idea that supposedly war commanders are mindless, amoral machines is completely and totally inaccurate.
No, my depiction is that the BEST ones are simple-minded amoral professional killers. That's not to say that a so-so commander can't also perform exceptionally well in a combat situation; not all officers are Seal Team leaders.

Put another way: Jean luc Picard is far from a military commander--he is too thoughtful, too contemplative, FAR too introspective and wishy-washy--yet he is fully capable winning a fight or two once he knows it's time to throw down. This makes him a very versatile commander with ample uses in peace time, but all things being equal he's likely to get out-fought by, say, Martok or Dukat or even Worf who don't have as many civic hangups to temper their judgement.

Basically, I'm describing the difference between a Shark and a Dolphin. The shark's first instinct is to try and kill you, and it is exceptionally good at it. The Dolphin, on the other hand, will probably do a million things before it ever harms you, yet it could easily kill you if it wanted to.

A Navy captain is of equivalent rank to someone who would be commanding a group of this size in other services. Again--this is no small feat, despite how insignificant you seem to think it is.
You seem to be projecting here (not sure why that is, but whatever). The simple fact of the matter is, even in the Navy, a commander who hesitates in battle is more likely to end up dead than a commander who makes a snap decision without contemplating, without internalizing, without philosophizing, without turning to quasi-psychic therapist to ask for advice. Often enough, these snap decisions DO result in tragedy and loss of life; because quick thinking is a desirable trait of navy commanders and officers are rarely (or never) chastised in such cases and are, in fact, usually rewarded.

Mainly this is because combat--like many fast-paced occupations--is not a place for people who think too much to act too little. The commander who sits and wonders if the target he's about to shoot down really IS hostile or not runs a greater risk of getting his entire crew killed.

In this case, really, the key difference between an Admiral and a Captain is that Admirals rarely come under fire from enemy weapons; they have more time to think, so they put it to better use.

But if you think any soldier who is capable of wartime decisions is nothing but a mindless thug
On the contrary, if he wants to make sure he lives THROUGH wartime he'd better be nothing less than a rifle-toting ninja with eyes in the back of his head. He'll get to drop mindless thugs by the truckload, IF he doesn't think too hard about whether or not the people he's shooting at really are mindless thugs, whether he has a right to kill them or not, whether his presence here precipitated the battle or not, whether those people have a right to defend themselves or not, whether it's possible to incapacitate them without killing them, whether it might be better to target their weapons and talk things out than immediately go for the head shot and neutralize them all.

Because if you have time to think about ANY of those things, you're probably not in combat. And soldiers are trained NOT to think about these things--or anything, for that matter--other than getting the job done.

Now maybe this is where your experience differs from mine, but in MY experience, the most elite soldiers in the world--particularly fighter pilots and some of the Marine Recon guys--are the ones who find civilian life the most frustrating. Not only is this understandable, it's a phenomenon so widely known that Star Trek actually did a theme episode on it.
 
janeway in any case, the four gentlemen wouldn't even have made it past the kazon. her determination is unmatched, she chooses action while the other ones, in particular sisko, keep babbling.
 
IIRC, Sisko was more of a MacArthur type leader: a patron saint of tricky logistics and clever strategy.

In terms of their respective strengths:
Picard the Mediates his way out of trouble
Janeway [tech]s her way out of trouble
Kirk argues his way out of trouble
Sisko finagles his way out of trouble
Archer stumbles his way out of trouble

:lol: Requires a thread of its own. Brilliant.
 
When my rear is in the line of fire, the last thing I want to be thinking is "Gee, I don't know if the guy in charge really has all of his screws down tight."

I would most likely trust Picard's soundness of mind and follow his orders loyally, based on what I've seen of him on screen. Charisma is a great thing, but the last thing that I would want as enlisted personell is someone like Kirk telling me what to do.

The guy who is the best actor, the most macho is usually not the guy you want determining whether you live or die.
 
Kirk. He works well under pressure, never put his ego above the good of his crew and was not afraid to throw a punch if he had to.
 
I would want the captain who had the most experience in facing and surviving desperate situations--Janeway.
 
Unlike Picard and Janeway, who will always let their naive idealism get in the way of doing what needs to be done, Sisko and Archer will do what is necessary to save the day. Although if I want a sure thing, I'll go with Kirk because Kirk always wins. I also like Jellico's style, he didn't take guff from anyone.
 
I would want to have Kirk in charge because he doesn't just handle a crisis. He kicks that crisis in the balls.

On the other hand I wouldn't want Archer in charge because he doesn't handle a crisis. He lets the crisis hand him his ass until T'Pol manages to pull the solution out of her handy Vulcan database. What a nothing Archer was.
 
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