Section 31: Rogue

[Christopher]

Was Ranul Keru introduced in this book?

Yes, it was his debut appearance in the literature.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I remember quite liking this novel, as Section 31 is one of my favorite aspects of modern Trek.

as for Keru and Hawk, I didn't see the romance as any different from a male/female relationship, so I mainly saw this as a B-plot..

...with that in mind, I was happy to see Keru back in Titan

Except that he's still mourning his beloved Sean... *sigh*

I realize different people grieve in different ways, but Ranul Keru's inability to move on indicates some serious emotional problems.

And, to be honest, I was disappointed that Keru didn't die in battle in Destiny against the Borg. If he'd stayed aboard the Titan instead of the mission to New Erigol, if he'd gone on the mission aboard the Aventine to capture the Borg scout ship, if he'd died making a difference against the Borg... Well, it would have brought some closure to his grief and his life. Now, Keru is going to carry the guilt that he didn't avenge himself on Hawk's killers for the rest of his life.

 

[Christopher]

^Keru learned to move on way back in The Red King.

 

[chelly]

I thought he blamed Worf more for the death then the Borg. Didn't he think that Worf should have done more to save Sean?

 

[Allyn Gibson]

^Keru learned to move on way back in The Red King.

I'll take your word for it; if it was there in The Red King I completely missed it.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I read this a while back, and can remember thinking that I was fine with how it was written, and thought that the characters were mostly well done. HOWEVER: S31 really came across in this novel as not much more than naive pawns. Even when speaking in their defence, all Zweller has to say on what S31 had done for the Federation is mention that S31 had blocked the warp-capabilities of some pre-warp potential enemies. You can compare this with S31 as it appears in DS9, or even as it appears in the previous S31 novel, "Cloak", in which S31 is perceived as an overarching puppet master.

Well remember in their I believe second appearance on DS9 they were willing to trust that Koval was working for them and not even consider that he may have been using them.

 

[DonIago]

Or they considered that and didn't share their concerns with Bashir or Admiral Ross, who were effectively pawns in any case.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Except that he's still mourning his beloved Sean... *sigh*

Memory Beta says, "In the six years' aftermath of his death, partner Ranul Keru still had not fully accepted it. Hawk returned to him in the form of dreams to comfort his coping loved one." (TTN novel: Taking Wing)

 

[Rush Limborg]

I remember quite liking Rogue. I remember a lot of other people liking it at the time, too, aside from some right wing homophobes.

Speaking for myself--by all acounts, a hard-core social conservative (there's a difference between that and "homophobe", suprisingly enough)--I can't say I have a problem with original characters being established as homosexual. Trip's bother's gay? Fine by me! Hawk? Well...look, TPTB wanted him to be, but felt they couldn't in the film. Fine.

Observe, from the FAQ:

Q: Why are there gay characters in TrekLit?

A: Because there are in real life.


I just can't say I'm a fan of K/S, or any such drastic change of characters we saw for long onscreen. I seem to recall, BTW, it was the (albiet subtle) use of K/S in Killing Time that brought about The Richard Arnold Era....

 

[Rush Limborg]

I read this a while back, and can remember thinking that I was fine with how it was written, and thought that the characters were mostly well done. HOWEVER: S31 really came across in this novel as not much more than naive pawns. Even when speaking in their defence, all Zweller has to say on what S31 had done for the Federation is mention that S31 had blocked the warp-capabilities of some pre-warp potential enemies. You can compare this with S31 as it appears in DS9, or even as it appears in the previous S31 novel, "Cloak", in which S31 is perceived as an overarching puppet master.

Well remember in their I believe second appearance on DS9 they were willing to trust that Koval was working for them and not even consider that he may have been using them.

Who says they didn't? I really think, if they could outwit Bashir over and over, they'd have something on Koval.

 

[Pala]

I read this a while back, and can remember thinking that I was fine with how it was written, and thought that the characters were mostly well done. HOWEVER: S31 really came across in this novel as not much more than naive pawns. Even when speaking in their defence, all Zweller has to say on what S31 had done for the Federation is mention that S31 had blocked the warp-capabilities of some pre-warp potential enemies. You can compare this with S31 as it appears in DS9, or even as it appears in the previous S31 novel, "Cloak", in which S31 is perceived as an overarching puppet master.

Well remember in their I believe second appearance on DS9 they were willing to trust that Koval was working for them and not even consider that he may have been using them.

Who says they didn't? I really think, if they could outwit Bashir over and over, they'd have something on Koval.

I don't recall the episode all that well, but the punchline was I think that Koval was working with/for S31, and that his betrayal of Sloan was faked for appearances (to convince his co-workers that S31 doesn't exist, etc).

William Ross later revealed to Bashir that Koval was a Federation operative and had been working with Starfleet Intelligence for more than a year. He was unaware of how long the Romulans had been working with Section 31. The "assassination plot" was in actuality a collaborative effort between Starfleet, Section 31 and Koval himself to ensure Kimara Cretak's dismissal from the Senate and that he would get his placement on the Continuing Committee instead of her. Koval's previous record of opposing the Federation Alliance would then serve to reinforce his arguments to keep the alliance intact. Koval's placement gave the Federation an ally inside the highest reaches of the Romulan government. (DS9: "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges")

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Can't get through it, tried again, get as far as the meeting on Chiaros IV and the death of Tabor and it just loses me. What happens in this clunker of a novel?

The books was difficult for me to get into, as well.

I tried to read it twice, actually.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I read this a while back, and can remember thinking that I was fine with how it was written, and thought that the characters were mostly well done. HOWEVER: S31 really came across in this novel as not much more than naive pawns. Even when speaking in their defence, all Zweller has to say on what S31 had done for the Federation is mention that S31 had blocked the warp-capabilities of some pre-warp potential enemies. You can compare this with S31 as it appears in DS9, or even as it appears in the previous S31 novel, "Cloak", in which S31 is perceived as an overarching puppet master.

Well remember in their I believe second appearance on DS9 they were willing to trust that Koval was working for them and not even consider that he may have been using them.

Who says they didn't? I really think, if they could outwit Bashir over and over, they'd have something on Koval.

WOW! Outwiting a doctor! I guess that amazing feat means they are more then ready to deal with a guy who was in intelligence way longer and had managed to climb to the top of his organizations ladder after likely manipulated many many other members of said organization

Plus

1) Bashir was able to pull one over on Section 31 when he tricked Slone about the Changeling virus cure.

2) Koval is DEAD so much for their useful ally and intelligence source.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Well remember in their I believe second appearance on DS9 they were willing to trust that Koval was working for them and not even consider that he may have been using them.

Who says they didn't? I really think, if they could outwit Bashir over and over, they'd have something on Koval.

WOW! Outwiting a doctor! I guess that amazing feat means they are more then ready to deal with a guy who was in intelligence way longer and had managed to climb to the top of his organizations ladder after likely manipulated many many other members of said organization

A genetically enhanced doctor, mind you. I hardly think I need remind you, sir, of the great examples of intelligence and reasoning demonstrated by the good doctor.

Plus

1) Bashir was able to pull one over on Section 31 when he tricked Slone about the Changeling virus cure.

See, to this day, I'm still not quite convinced that Sloan actually was outwitted. Consider the big contrast between Sloan's into in "Inter Arna..." (wherein Bashir's computer was locked down by Sloan, and thus he couldn't call for security or do anything like...a force field, say?)--with the intro in "Extreme Measures" (wherein Sloan conveniently does not lock the computer down--enabling Bashir to activate a field and--could it be?--call O'Brien!).

Just ask around--I'm far from the only one who thinks Sloan's capture was insanely too easy. My theory, it was an elaborate hoax on Sloan's part--with a genius rivaling Chulla and Seska's plan to capture Voyager in "Basics, Part I".

2) Koval is DEAD so much for their useful ally and intelligence source.

Please. It's not as if 31 would rationally expect their mole to be permanent--they knew, considering his medical condition, he was gonna die sooner rather than later anyway.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Who says they didn't? I really think, if they could outwit Bashir over and over, they'd have something on Koval.

WOW! Outwiting a doctor! I guess that amazing feat means they are more then ready to deal with a guy who was in intelligence way longer and had managed to climb to the top of his organizations ladder after likely manipulated many many other members of said organization

A genetically enhanced doctor, mind you. I hardly think I need remind you, sir, of the great examples of intelligence and reasoning demonstrated by the good doctor.

Didn't he think the Federation and Klingons would lose the war EVEN IF the Romulans joined forces with them

Plus

1) Bashir was able to pull one over on Section 31 when he tricked Slone about the Changeling virus cure.

See, to this day, I'm still not quite convinced that Sloan actually was outwitted. Consider the big contrast between Sloan's into in "Inter Arna..." (wherein Bashir's computer was locked down by Sloan, and thus he couldn't call for security or do anything like...a force field, say?)--with the intro in "Extreme Measures" (wherein Sloan conveniently does not lock the computer down--enabling Bashir to activate a field and--could it be?--call O'Brien!).

HELLO! they were expecting 31 so of course they had countermeasures these guys are clandestined illegal intelligence operatives NOT all knowing psychics, which is kind of another reason they should have oversight.

Just ask around--I'm far from the only one who thinks Sloan's capture was insanely too easy. My theory, it was an elaborate hoax on Sloan's part--with a genius rivaling Chulla and Seska's plan to capture Voyager in "Basics, Part I".

One Chulla and Seska's plan was foiled by a holgraphic doctor and an insane crew member in the end so its not that genius, it also requires the writers to give Seska more knowledge about Voyager's systems than Janeway and its crew have which is unbelieveable.

Two again they knew 31 was coming so they were ready for them. Is it so hard to believe that a bunch of assholes got arrogant because of how they've been able to sneak around before because.

News flash secret agencies are not infalable.

2) Koval is DEAD so much for their useful ally and intelligence source.

Please. It's not as if 31 would rationally expect their mole to be permanent--they knew, considering his medical condition, he was gonna die sooner rather than later anyway.

So why give him a nice position over one of their allies and screw over said ally while doing it?

 

[Rush Limborg]

WOW! Outwiting a doctor! I guess that amazing feat means they are more then ready to deal with a guy who was in intelligence way longer and had managed to climb to the top of his organizations ladder after likely manipulated many many other members of said organization

A genetically enhanced doctor, mind you. I hardly think I need remind you, sir, of the great examples of intelligence and reasoning demonstrated by the good doctor.

Didn't he think the Federation and Klingons would lose the war EVEN IF the Romulans joined forces with them

Interesting note: the one thing Bashir and the Jack Pack apparently did not anticipate--aside from the Breen alliance, which tilted the scale in the Dominion's favor, mind you--was Section 31 in general, and the virus in particular.

Suppose that's something.

HELLO! they were expecting 31 so of course they had countermeasures these guys are clandestined illegal intelligence operatives NOT all knowing psychics, which is kind of another reason they should have oversight.

...

Two again they knew 31 was coming so they were ready for them. Is it so hard to believe that a bunch of assholes got arrogant because of how they've been able to sneak around before because.

News flash secret agencies are not infalable.

And yet you assume the Tal Shiar is more capable than 31?

You think 31 did not have contermeasures to anticipate betrayel? And to be frank--they WOULD be foolish not to anticipate betrayel.

One Chulla and Seska's plan was foiled by a holgraphic doctor and an insane crew member in the end so its not that genius, it also requires the writers to give Seska more knowledge about Voyager's systems than Janeway and its crew have which is unbelieveable.

Seska was not infallible--and they made a stupid mistake in "Part II". That does not change the fact that the way they brought about the plan in "Part I" was, indeed, pretty clever.

So why give him a nice position over one of their allies and screw over said ally while doing it?

Because she was not an ally. She just supported the alliance while it suited her. Need I remind you...of the opening arc of season 7--and how Senator Cretak, your "ally", nearly destroyed the alliance over a few Romulan weapons in the Bajoran system?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

A genetically enhanced doctor, mind you. I hardly think I need remind you, sir, of the great examples of intelligence and reasoning demonstrated by the good doctor.

Didn't he think the Federation and Klingons would lose the war EVEN IF the Romulans joined forces with them

Interesting note: the one thing Bashir and the Jack Pack apparently did not anticipate--aside from the Breen alliance, which tilted the scale in the Dominion's favor, mind you--was Section 31 in general, and the virus in particular.

Suppose that's something.

The virus could have also caused the Jam Hadar to launch a massive Kamakaze attack on the Federation and its allies in revenge and killed billions. Thank god Odo managed to save the Founders and get them to end the war and stoped those idiots.

And yet you assume the Tal Shiar is more capable than 31?

THEY WERE AROUND LONGER! Hello the Romulan Empire is way older than the Federation and Section 31 are so the Tal Shiar probably know how to play the spy game better mister I thinkl humans are smarter than them dang aliens even though that is total crap.

You think 31 did not have contermeasures to anticipate betrayel? And to be frank--they WOULD be foolish not to anticipate betrayel.

Really they didn't see Bashir screwing their genocide plan.

One Chulla and Seska's plan was foiled by a holgraphic doctor and an insane crew member in the end so its not that genius, it also requires the writers to give Seska more knowledge about Voyager's systems than Janeway and its crew have which is unbelieveable.

Seska was not infallible--and they made a stupid mistake in "Part II". That does not change the fact that the way they brought about the plan in "Part I" was, indeed, pretty clever.

You're still missing the point that it only works if Janeway is ignorant about how her ship's self destruct works.

So why give him a nice position over one of their allies and screw over said ally while doing it?

Because she was not an ally. She just supported the alliance while it suited her. Need I remind you...of the opening arc of season 7--and how Senator Cretak, your "ally", nearly destroyed the alliance over a few Romulan weapons in the Bajoran system?

Yes because people are never forced to go along with their government's bad ideas so as not to be a traitor, you also realize oh so blind one that when Barshir thought 31 was planning to kill Koval she tried to help him stop them to prevent the Federation and Romulans from going to war.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Didn't he think the Federation and Klingons would lose the war EVEN IF the Romulans joined forces with them

Interesting note: the one thing Bashir and the Jack Pack apparently did not anticipate--aside from the Breen alliance, which tilted the scale in the Dominion's favor, mind you--was Section 31 in general, and the virus in particular.

Suppose that's something.

The virus could have also caused the Jam Hadar to launch a massive Kamakaze attack on the Federation and its allies in revenge and killed billions. Thank god Odo managed to save the Founders and get them to end the war and stoped those idiots.

Nice theory--except for the fact that in "Starship Down", it was established that if the founder dies, the Jem'Hadar who were entrusted to defend it all commit suicide. If they were really so "vengeful" as you claim, they would have, in that episode, killed all the Starfleet Officers on the planet...but they didn't.

THEY WERE AROUND LONGER! Hello the Romulan Empire is way older than the Federation and Section 31 are so the Tal Shiar probably know how to play the spy game better mister I thinkl humans are smarter than them dang aliens even though that is total crap.

And of course...the Tal Shiar was decimated by the Founders in "The Die Is Cast"--and the Romulan-founder explained to Odo that this effectively crippled the Romulans as a threat in and of themselves.

Really they didn't see Bashir screwing their genocide plan.

Again--the fact that Bashir was able to use his computer console in "Extreme", as opposed to "Inter Arna...", hints that something was amiss. The only reason Sloan would allow himself to be caught implies that there was something else going on.

You're still missing the point that it only works if Janeway is ignorant about how her ship's self destruct works.

Not neccessarily. As Scotty said in STIII:TSFS, "The more they overthink the plumbing...the easier it is to stop up the drain."

So why give him a nice position over one of their allies and screw over said ally while doing it?

Because she was not an ally. She just supported the alliance while it suited her. Need I remind you...of the opening arc of season 7--and how Senator Cretak, your "ally", nearly destroyed the alliance over a few Romulan weapons in the Bajoran system?

Yes because people are never forced to go along with their government's bad ideas so as not to be a traitor, you also realize oh so blind one that when Barshir thought 31 was planning to kill Koval she tried to help him stop them to prevent the Federation and Romulans from going to war.

..."Barshir"?

Anyhow...remember, as Ross explained, Cretak only did what she thought would advance the interests of the Empire. She thought it would benefit the Empire to put weapons in the Bajoran system--and she thought that the assasination of Koval would hurt the Empire.

 

[Sci]

Don't remember a thing about it even though I read it.

That does not bode well. Frankly, the S31 thing has been beat into the ground so much, I don't even have a need to see it anymore.

Section 31: Rogue was published along with three other novels in the Section 31 miniseries almost ten years ago. At the time, they were the only novels to feature Section 31. Since then, Section 31 has been featured prominently in only six novels (A Time to Kill; A Time to Heal; ENT: The Good That Men Do; ENT: Kobayashi Maru; ENT: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wings; DS9: Hollow Men) and mentioned in only five (COE: The Future Begins; A Time for War, A Time for Peace; Articles of the Federation; TOS: The Case of the Colonist's Corpse; The Lost Era: Catalyst of Sorrows) that I can think of.

Also, all four Section 31 novels ended with

Spoiler: Section 31

the captains of the other shows discovering Section 31's existence and setting out to defeat them, with "The Good That Men Do" establishing that by the early 25th Century, Section 31 had been found and defeated.

Given that, it seems obvious to me that the story isn't finished yet.

So, between only being in a handful of books and a major arc being incomplete, I fail to see how that's "been beat into the ground."

S31 can murder presidents ( I still got a big problem with those 2 books)

Any organised group, or even one wacky individual, can murder a president and be convinced they've done the right thing. Isn't that the point?

But usually they don't get away with it.

Spoiler: The Good That Men Do

And neither does Section 31.

 

[Christopher]

Okay, they don't get away with it for that long. John Wilkes Booth was caught in 12 days. Charles Guiteau surrendered immediately after shooting President Garfield. Leon Czolgosz was subdued within seconds of shooting President McKinley. Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested within 90 minutes.