5x03 Victory of the Daleks (Grading/Discussion) SPOILERS!

[Mr Awe]

So far, I'm enjoying Moffat's first season in charge as much as any of RTD's. I love the first 2 episodes. The 3rd, not so much. But, every season has its duds. We will have to see how the entire season plays out.

The tone of this season is remarkaly similar to past season as well, maybe just a subtle difference. Again, we'll have see the entire season to distinguish the random variation between episodes from any true, but subtle, shift across the entire season.

Mr Awe

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

The plot is still pretty ridiculous and nonsensical of course, but somehow... I didn't really mind as much. Once you accept it as just a crazy adventure, it actually kinda works.

Isn't this kind of the epitath for DW in general?

Right. And frankly, Doctor Who should always have some crazy adventure in it. One of the iconic images is the Doctor and his companion throwing a bunch of random TARDIS switches and going headfirst into the next mad experience.

I still think you're a little rough on Smith, though. I think he's been really good, and I could see immediately why Moffat picked him. It'll be interesting to see how his performance changes with time and a bit more age as the role takes him into his thirties.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The plot is still pretty ridiculous and nonsensical of course, but somehow... I didn't really mind as much. Once you accept it as just a crazy adventure, it actually kinda works.

Isn't this kind of the epitath for DW in general?

Right. And frankly, Doctor Who should always have some crazy adventure in it. One of the iconic images is the Doctor and his companion throwing a bunch of random TARDIS switches and going headfirst into the next mad experience.

Exactly. I don't watch it for the plausibility of the plots - it'd be D.O.A. if that were the case. The energy, the characters, the wit and just plain audacity of the show are why it's good. It's unembarrassed, extravagant fun and when it's done well there's some real emotional content to the goings-on.

 

[davejames]

Exactly. I don't watch it for the plausibility of the plots - it'd be D.O.A. if that were the case. The energy, the characters, the wit and just plain audacity of the show are why it's good. It's unembarrassed, extravagant fun and when it's done well there's some real emotional content to the goings-on.

I'm fine with a mad romp, but I still think at least a little bit of internal logic and consistency is required.

The Daleks building an android that had human feelings and memories is something that, for me, needed just a touch more explanation than we got.

 

[Cutter John]

I'm fine with a mad romp, but I still think at least a little bit of internal logic and consistency is required.

The Daleks building an android that had human feelings and memories is something that, for me, needed just a touch more explanation than we got.

Hell I can live with color-coded daleks, and an overweight Churchill. But the bit you mentioned is pretty much what ruined it for me. Along with the thing with the fighter planes. Theres just no way to explain them with the information we were given.

But hopefully once next weekend rolls around we can put this unpleasantness behind us.

 

[Rowan Sjet]

^ Hear, hear!

 

[davejames]

I do have to admit though, the Daleks infiltrating a human base by building a scientist that "invents" them IS a pretty genius idea.

It's just a shame the episode glossed over it so quickly.

 

[The]

Just remember, we've had far, far worse (Fear Her, The Doctor's Daughter, Idiot's Lantern, etc.)

 

[wamdue]

I do have to admit though, the Daleks infiltrating a human base by building a scientist that "invents" them IS a pretty genius idea.

It's just a shame the episode glossed over it so quickly.

I agree that was good, its the human bomb that can be disarmed by programmed feelings of humanity, which is the problem.

 

[Cutter John]

I do have to admit though, the Daleks infiltrating a human base by building a scientist that "invents" them IS a pretty genius idea.

It's just a shame the episode glossed over it so quickly.

True, very true. That was a clever idea.

Though allowing him to build the humans weapons that could actually harm the Daleks when they knew the Doctor would be in the vicinity? Not so much.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The Daleks building an android that had human feelings and memories is something that, for me, needed just a touch more explanation than we got.

That would be exactly wrong. It's so preposterous that any attempt to explain it with a TV framework would be a waste of time. I can understand the POV that it didn't work - worked for me, quite reasonably wouldn't work for someone with different tastes - but IMAO the only two clever choices are to just bull it through, as they did, or discard the idea as unworkable.

Same principle, really, as "if you have to explain a joke it's not funny."

 

[Captain Pike]

But if the joke makes no logical sense in the first place it's also not funny.

i.e -

Q:"Why did the chicken cross the road?"
A:"The Earl of Leicester and Isotope 571"


And a plot on a tv show is not entirely analogous to a joke. Sure, they share a certain immediacy, but not alot else..

 

[Bones2]

The plot is still pretty ridiculous and nonsensical of course, but somehow... I didn't really mind as much. Once you accept it as just a crazy adventure, it actually kinda works.

Isn't this kind of the epitath for DW in general?

For RTD Who maybe, but when you have to not think in order to enjoy something, then it's not doing it right.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

But if the joke makes no logical sense in the first place it's also not funny.

People find different things funny, many of them illogical. You're determined to apply logic where it has no direct utility.

Devoting screen time to explaining Bracewell wouldn't have made anything about him less preposterous. It would simply have wasted time. If you didn't like him, you didn't like him; if you did, you did. I found the whole conceit at first funny and finally charming.

 

[Captain Pike]

Well, I quite liked him. That is to say, I thought it was a decent idea, and the actor seemed to have a good screen presence.

There was a line the doctor used which more or less implied his memories (at least those outside his 'Ironside' work) were probably copied from a real human being, though it was very quick and subtle and it may have been missed quite easily. I thought that this went some way towards explaining his emotional conviction near the episodes end (though not quite far enough).

In fact, I liked the set-up of this story very much, but I felt it was let down, partly because the scope of the story needed to be much greater and it should have been a two-parter, and partly because of those damned Spitfires..

 

[davejames]

In fact, I liked the set-up of this story very much, but I felt it was let down, partly because the scope of the story needed to be much greater and it should have been a two-parter, and partly because of those damned Spitfires..

Agreed. I can definitely see how Bracewell would have worked in a two-part story, where his character would have had time to develop more (the idea that implanted memories might lead an android to believe itself sentient is certainly a solid one, as well as the fact the Daleks inadvertently created something with more of a soul than they have).

But the way it sprang out of nowhere, and the rather cartoonish characterization, just made it seem ridiculous as hell.

It may still work one SOME level, as part of a big, crazy romp, but I think there was potential there for something a lot greater.

 

[Sci]

But if the joke makes no logical sense in the first place it's also not funny.

Bullshit. Non sequiturs are some of the funniest jokes possible.

The plot is still pretty ridiculous and nonsensical of course, but somehow... I didn't really mind as much. Once you accept it as just a crazy adventure, it actually kinda works.

Isn't this kind of the epitath for DW in general?

For RTD Who maybe,

Yeah, because an old man riding in a time machine that looks like a phone box through space while fighting murderous salt shakers and men in toy robot costumes was ever so much more intelligent and plausible back in the old days.

* * *

As for me...

This episode had really good, really strong tension right up until the point where the Daleks started explaining their plan to the Doctor.

And then?

.... it was just the Daleks and the Doctor barking at each other. And the Daleks explaining their dastardly plan. It took up most of the remainder of the episode.

All the tension and momentum felt lost at that point, I'm afraid.

Also...

Is it really too much to ask for Daleks that don't look like they're made of plastic? I mean, hell, they managed to make the Daleks who were infiltrating the War Room look like metal -- why not the new Master Daleks? (I've given up on them ever not bouncing the eye stalks up and down when they talk. The Dalek in "Dalek" was much creepier for its stillness, for my money.)

Still, all in all, a good run. And Amy continues to impress. I'd give it a nice, solid B.

 

[Captain Pike]

Sci - even absurd humour which may seem a complete non sequitur still follows it's own internal logic and consistency.

 

[Sci]

Sci - even absurd humour which may seem a complete non sequitur still follows it's own internal logic and consistency.

Erm, no. That's the point. It doesn't have internal logic.

"What's the difference between a grape?"

It's like the fight between Peter and the Giant Chick on Family Guy. It came out of nowhere, had no context, made no sense -- it was just, hey, suddenly Peter's in a life-or-death fight with a giant chicken! It lost all its humor value when they started actually explaining why the Chicken hated Peter. Same with the Evil Monkey In Chris's Closet and how they later explained it; it ceased to be funny once it made sense.

 

[Captain Pike]

Ok I see what you are saying, but only the grape joke is a non-sequitur - the Family Guy chicken and the Evil Monkey do follow an internal logic and consistency. They are also actually funny (unlike the grape one)