How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

[dru]

As Greg pointed out, this is not a straight-up faithful retelling of Norse mythology; it's a movie based on a comic book that has long played fast and loose with that mythology...

I've seen this point rehashed often in this topic already and have to suggest, instead, the *comics* are the mythology in this case.

Doesn't matter what the Nordic traditions are, just what Stan & Jack and those who followed brought forth. That's the source material.

I don't really know Thor's corner of the Marvel Universe so I can't speak to whether this casting is a problem that will be pointed at later as a reason why the film sucked. I don't even know the actor's work.

It's not like Will Smith's son is the next Peter Parker although I've seen rumors...

 

[dru]

Conversely, there's nothing especially important in the backgrounds of, say, Luke Cage or Bishop that require them to be black either - but there are so few black superheroes that it's not really the same thing to change them to another race.

Funny you should mention Bishop. According to John Byrne who was scripting X-Men at the time Bishop was a mandate from marketing to create a black character.

First, it wasn't Editorial, it was Marketing that decreed that Bishop be Black. First time to my knowledge that the sales department had been placed in a position to make creative decisions. Traditionally, their job was to sell what
editorial came up with, not dictate to editorial what they could create.

While original thought of as "African-American" when created, Bishop is apparently an Australian Aborigine according to "X-Treme X-men."

Yeah, nothing there which requires Bishop to be black.

 

[Greg Cox]

I don't really know Thor's corner of the Marvel Universe so I can't speak to whether this casting is a problem that will be pointed at later as a reason why the film sucked. I don't even know the actor's work.

To be honest, the comic book character never had much of a personality. He was the guardian of the gates of Asgard and, as I recall, his main narrative function was to greet Thor whenever he returned to Asgard. "Hail, Odinson! What brings thy noble person back to the Realm Eternal?"

To a degree, worrying about whether the "wrong" Heimdall will ruin the movie is like worrying about who is going to play Felix Leiter in a Bond film . . . .

It doesn't really matter.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

Right. For a character like the Black Panther, say, it's a significant part of the character concept that he's an African prince; a white actor would be very dissonant. But for a lot of white comic book characters, their race is not really significant; the comic book writers just tended to make everyone white by default. So using black actors for some of them would not be a big dissonance.

Like hell it isn't. Keep your PC off my superheroes!

If you want an ethnic hero to show "diversity", do the hard work of developing an original character and putting it out there for public inspection. Stop trying to co-opt existing characters for your political agenda.

You know, I just love it that you're bent out of shape about casting Idris Elba as Heimdall! It makes me laugh! But then again, what should we expect from a poster whose avatar is the Confederate flag?

Did you freak out as much when James Rhodes took over as Iron Man in the comics? Or that the Justice League cartoon chose to have the African-American John Stewart as Green Lantern? I hope so! And I'll just bet you're one of the ST fans who flipped when Tim Russ was cast as a -- gasp -- black Vulcan!

Or how about when Madonna kissed a black saint's feet in her video, "Like A Prayer." I'm sure you were apoplectic!

To be fair to Darkwing, Asian American, White, & Afro-American youth are pissed off at Avatar: The Last Airbender's casting of whites in roles meant for Asians, so Darkwing and his friends are in good company. Not that I'm saying he's right, mind you, just that he's in good company.

 

[Hermiod]

^Red Ranger's argument is utterly ridiculous anyway.

Nobody was bothered by Rhodey taking over as Iron Man or black Vulcans or Lanterns or anything like that. Why ? Because they weren't taking Tony Stark or Spock or anyone and making them black, they were different people!

 

[Greg Cox]

^But Nick Fury or whomever is still just a fictional character. He's a figment of the imagination. So he can be reinvented any time you reboot the series, like when you film a new movie version.

Nothing is set in stone.

If I want to write a story in which Fury is a giant, orange-skinned woman and I can talk Marvel into authorizing it . . . voila, he's a giant, orange-skinned woman!

 

[gblews]

And the multiracial casting boom continues....

How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

I'll be damned, I didn't know Idris Elba was British. Talk about an actor with presence - looking forward to seeing him in the movie.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

In fact, I just relayed what you said to the first one on IM, and he replied:

"No, people with an education and a reverence for a pantheon"

If they have a reverence for the pantheon, then surely they're offended by the Thor comics line in general? Making Thor Odin's son is a much more drastic change and fundamentally shifts one of the major dynamics in the Norse pantheon.

Relay:

1) Who says we aren't[sic]? I enjoy the spirit of the comic...[but]I just don't think it's as true to the mythos as it coudl be. But then, that's entertainment.

Anticipating your comeback, I asked: "If 'that's entertainment', then you shouldn't mind a black Heimdall"

He replied:

If it's entertainment, I get to say what I would enjoy and what I wouldn't, and not be called a racist. You assume a lot by my preferance for Norse being Norse, and not Moors or African, who have their own rich pantheons.

As it stands, I'm working with a talented friend and artist on a graphic novel of my own, and he also happens to be black.

I LOVED the addition of a Moor in the Robin Hood story, because it made a certain amount of sense within the story
That, and Morgan Freeman did an awesome job, totally outshining Kevin Costner in that film. But it made SENSE, and didn't abuse the willing suspension of disbelief.

This does.

Hell, Sam Jackson makes a excellent Nick Fury.

But then again, a racist like me would [think that], right?

Just as I was posting this, he added:

The fact that Thor is Odin's son is true. He's the son of Odin and the giantess Jord

Who does this self-styled scholar of the Norse mythos THINK is his father?

 

[Hermiod]

^But Nick Fury or whomever is still just a fictional character. He's a figment of the imagination. So he can be reinvented any time you reboot the series, like when you film a new movie version.

Nothing is set in stone.

If I want to write a story in which Fury is a giant, orange-skinned woman and I can talk Marvel into authorizing it . . . voila, he's a giant, orange-skinned woman!

So we won't see any complaining when The Last Airbender comes out then ?

Like hell we won't.

 

[Kegg]

1) Who says we aren't[sic]? I enjoy the spirit of the comic...[but]I just don't think it's as true to the mythos as it coudl be.

In which case, the problem is with the Thor comics themselves.

 

[Thespeckledkiwi]

I don't really know Thor's corner of the Marvel Universe so I can't speak to whether this casting is a problem that will be pointed at later as a reason why the film sucked. I don't even know the actor's work.

To be honest, the comic book character never had much of a personality. He was the guardian of the gates of Asgard and, as I recall, his main narrative function was to greet Thor whenever he returned to Asgard. "Hail, Odinson! What brings thy noble person back to the Realm Eternal?"

To a degree, worrying about whether the "wrong" Heimdall will ruin the movie is like worrying about who is going to play Felix Leiter in a Bond film . . . .

It doesn't really matter.

This is very true.

Get the best actor for the role!

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Did you freak out as much when James Rhodes took over as Iron Man in the comics?

No.

Or that the Justice League cartoon chose to have the African-American John Stewart as Green Lantern? I hope so!

Strike Two!

And I'll just bet you're one of the ST fans who flipped when Tim Russ was cast as a -- gasp -- black Vulcan!

Strike Three, you're OUT!

Or how about when Madonna kissed a black saint's feet in her video, "Like A Prayer." I'm sure you were apoplectic!

A little uncomfortable with the Jesus imagery in general and not a fan of Madonna herself, but the race of the actor playing the saint had nothing to do with either.

Has anyone actually mentioned yet that the actor in question is Idris Elba, who happens to be the man? Seriously, get Elba to play Thor or even Superman or Batman. He kicks ass. If it has been mentioned, I apologize, I tried my best to wade through the comments from the person with the confederate flag as an avatar and a location stating he's fro the unreconstructed south saying that a black person can't play a white person...

THIS. Someone clearly has an agenda, wouldn't you say? Like this lovely piece.

Hold on there, hoss! I have ZERO to do with Metzger or any other AN/White Supremacist group. I have not been, am not now, nor will I ever a subscriber to their "agenda".

^Red Ranger's argument is utterly ridiculous anyway.
Nobody was bothered by Rhodey taking over as Iron Man or black Vulcans or Lanterns or anything like that. Why ? Because they weren't taking Tony Stark or Spock or anyone and making them black, they were different people!

This.

More from my friend:

So, first off, they shot themselves in the foot by making that claim. Thor really IS Odin's son

Second, their argument assumes that my objection to the casting of a black actor in the role of a Norse god is based in a prejudice against black people in general, which they have no other information to support. But, it's a general assumption one would expect of someone who can't get Thor's lineage right.

They mistake abuse of willing suspension of disbelief with political forwardness.

Instead of trying to incorporate a black man in a white people's mythology, why not start advocating the popularity of an African or Moorish pantheon instead.

How many of them can name a single African god?

Or even a single loa?

 

[JoeZhang]

Did you freak out as much when James Rhodes took over as Iron Man in the comics?

No.

Or that the Justice League cartoon chose to have the African-American John Stewart as Green Lantern? I hope so!

Strike Two!



Strike Three, you're OUT!



A little uncomfortable with the Jesus imagery in general and not a fan of Madonna herself, but the race of the actor playing the saint had nothing to do with either.



Hold on there, hoss! I have ZERO to do with Metzger or any other AN/White Supremacist group. I have not been, am not now, nor will I ever a subscriber to their "agenda".

^Red Ranger's argument is utterly ridiculous anyway.
Nobody was bothered by Rhodey taking over as Iron Man or black Vulcans or Lanterns or anything like that. Why ? Because they weren't taking Tony Stark or Spock or anyone and making them black, they were different people!

This.

More from my friend:

So, first off, they shot themselves in the foot by making that claim. Thor really IS Odin's son

Second, their argument assumes that my objection to the casting of a black actor in the role of a Norse god is based in a prejudice against black people in general, which they have no other information to support. But, it's a general assumption one would expect of someone who can't get Thor's lineage right.

They mistake abuse of willing suspension of disbelief with political forwardness.

Instead of trying to incorporate a black man in a white people's mythology, why not start advocating the popularity of an African or Moorish pantheon instead.

How many of them can name a single African god?

Or even a single loa?

Because Marvel can't sell that film? Because they aren't making that film? Because as you have been told a number of times they are making a film about Thor the Marvel character who is loosely based (unless the original Asgard has spaceships in it? and Thor's mother was Gaea rather than the slightly different Jord?) on Thor the mythological figure not a film about Thor the mythological figure.

If you and your white power buddies want that film, go and finance it.

 

[Hermiod]

^I don't know about the political affiliations of anyone else here but calling people "white supremacists" just because they don't agree with you is a tad unnecessary.

I believe that casting black actors in roles where the character has been portrayed as white throughout his or her history is patronising to black people and disrespectful to the artists involved, and the double standard portrayed here where it is okay to do this but not to cast white actors in non-white roles is racist.

That does not make me a "white supremacist" any more than anyone arguing against me is a member of the Black Panthers or any other such nonsensical argument.

 

[JoeZhang]

^I don't know about the political affiliations of anyone else here but calling people "white supremacists" just because they don't agree with you is a tad unnecessary.

I believe that casting black actors in roles where the character has been portrayed as white throughout his or her history is patronising to black people and disrespectful to the artists involved, and the double standard portrayed here where it is okay to do this but not to cast white actors in non-white roles is racist.

That does not make me a "white supremacist" any more than anyone arguing against me is a member of the Black Panthers or any other such nonsensical argument.

The difference is that the characters that were discussed have traits or situations that arise out of their 'blackness' (for wont of a better word). Luke Cage is a character who arises out of a specific context, as do the characters in Roots. Hemedial, like Nick Fury has nothing specific in his back-story that requires any particular colour - which is why the Nick Fury of the films is not the white guy who has appeared in comics for 50 years but Samuel L. Jackson (who the Ultimate comics version of the character was based upon) because there is nothing about the character that requires him to be black or white.

There is nothing about Hemedial, the comic book character that requires it either.

 

[Checkmate]

Hemedial, like Nick Fury has nothing specific in his back-story that requires any particular colour

Uh, very, very, very wrong. Heimdall has, for a very long time, been labeled as "the whitest of the gods." He is, quite literally, the White God.

It's very much the same as casting a Caucasian, a Native American, an Asian, or an Eskimo as Luke Cage.

That's not a racist statement, and it's absolutely absurd to go around throwing insults like "white supremicist" around just because people recognize those facts. Racism works both ways, buddy; caucasians aren't the only ones capable of it.

There is nothing about Hemedial, the comic book character that requires it either.

Except that he's based upon the 'real' Heimdall, and that the comic book characters are very much the Norse gods.

 

[JoeZhang]

There is nothing about Hemedial, the comic book character that requires it either.

Except that he's based upon the 'real' Heimdall, and that the comic book characters are very much the Norse gods.

Really? I don't remember them making much use of Space-ships? I don't remember Thor's mother being Gaea rather than Jund (who does share some similar characteristics it has to be said)?

I don't remember the 'real' norse gods actually being the creation of older gods who gained power and amusement from every cycle of ragnarok?

And on and on and on...

The characters are whatever the writer of the week wants them to be - hell in one 'origin', They are space lizards...

 

[Checkmate]

I don't remember the Norse mythologies extended to the modern era, either. What's your point? It doesn't change the fact that Heimdall is very much based on Heimdall, or that Heimdall is "the White God" and "the whitest of the gods." No matter how much you try to say otherwise to rationalize your painfully racist statements.

 

[JoeZhang]

I don't remember the Norse mythologies extended to the modern era, either. What's your point? It doesn't change the fact that Heimdall is very much based on Heimdall, or that Heimdall is "the White God" and "the whitest of the gods." No matter how much you try to say otherwise to rationalize your painfully racist statements.

When was he ever described as such in the comics? Because I can't remember it.

 

[Hermiod]

The difference is that the characters that were discussed have traits or situations that arise out of their 'blackness' (for wont of a better word). Luke Cage is a character who arises out of a specific context, as do the characters in Roots. Hemedial, like Nick Fury has nothing specific in his back-story that requires any particular colour - which is why the Nick Fury of the films is not the white guy who has appeared in comics for 50 years but Samuel L. Jackson (who the Ultimate comics version of the character was based upon) because there is nothing about the character that requires him to be black or white.

There is nothing about Hemedial, the comic book character that requires it either.

I think people are splitting hairs in regards to which version of the Norse Gods we are talking about.

The Norse Gods are just that, Norse. Their comic book depiction is based on the beliefs of Northern European people. It's difficult to think of a "whiter" culture than that.

It's more than a little insulting to suggest that a character who is white "has nothing in his background" to make him that way. Why ? Because a character doesn't have "White" in his name ?

Superman "arose out of a specific context" too. Unless you think a white couple passing a black baby they found in a cornfield off as their own wouldn't have changed his backstory just a little bit.

Nick Fury isn't really up for discussion as the Ultimate Universe version of the character was black and nobody had an issue with that. I certainly don't.