was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?
- Thread starter indolover
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Klingons are definitely hypocrites. Always whining about honor, yet they do dishonorable things all the time like: stabbing a man in the back; killing an unarmed man (yet they claim they wouldn't even attack an unarmed man); wanting to legally persecute others who have killed a Klingon one-on-one in a fair and honorable fight, even though that is their favorite method to solve disputes; claming that they are only allowed to challenge their direct superior officer to a duel, yet violating that rule when it's convenient because they don't want to kill their superior officer who is friend; etc. etc.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
The klingons are bullies - always talking about how honorable they are, yet always defining that honor differently in order to suit their interests.
The Klingons are definitely hypocrites, but no more so than the Federation.
The Klingons talk a big game about honor, but then constantly act dishonorably.
The Federation talks a big game about understanding and acceptance, but then constantly judges others by UFP standards.
The Klingons talk a big game about honor, but then constantly act dishonorably.
The Federation talks a big game about understanding and acceptance, but then constantly judges others by UFP standards.
Shran--you pretty much summed it up as far as I'm concerned.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
That's because the Federation actually follows its moral code.
The alternative is not applying this moral code when it comes to others - aka betraying its morals. The prime directive streches the limit of its morality as it is.
The klingons's honor code, on the other hand, changes with the situation.
And the cardassians' morals - well, ask bajorans about it.
Envy is NOT a desirable trait, Nerys Ghemor.
After having watched TNG's "Sins of the Father" and "Renunion" just recently, I'm inclined to say that Ezri was spot-on with her analysis. 
Of course, there are Klingons who live up to their ideals (Worf, Martok), but it often seems that they're a minority.
Of course, there are Klingons who live up to their ideals (Worf, Martok), but it often seems that they're a minority.
If its moral code is to accept others' ways and beliefs, how is it following that code to impose someone else's ways and beliefs on others and expect them to follow UFP, or more often Earth, standards? Being accepting of others means you can't expect them to be just like you.
Also, while I think Ezri was spot on about the hypocrisy of the Klingons, I think she was wrong about one thing. She asks Worf if there has ever been a single Klingon Chancellor worthy of respect. I'd say there was at least one - Gorkon.
Perhaps, but considering Gorkon is a Gorbachev/Lincoln hybrid we can fault in both those men, so who knows what Gorkon did pre assassination.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
I presume that you are referring to things like threatening to deny the Bajoran pettition for membership because of their practice of a caste system? Or their unwillingness to allow Roga Danar's people to join until they had settled the issue of the mistreatment of their war veterans? Or perhaps the Timicin incident?
There is a common social and moral standard that a society must agree to in order to become a Federation member. Each society is allowed to decide for itself if it can accept those social and moral strictures. The Federation, however, has NEVER forced anyone to join it.
Of course, that begs the entire question of whether or not all value systems are of equal worth to begin with. Is it acceptable to say "It's their way" when a society practices racial or caste discrimination? Is it right for them to look aside when a society kills otherwise healthy and productive citizens just because they reach a certain age? Is it right to say nothing when a planet essentially makes slaves out of a certain portion of it's population?
A few examples of what I was thinking of....
TOS - The Return of the Archons - They pass judgement on the concept of the Festival because it's not what Humans would do.
TNG - Suddenly Human - They simply assume that Jono would natuarally want to return to his Human family. They also look down on the Talarian concept of taking war orphans and raising them as their own children.
DS9 - Just about any Starfleet officer's, other than Sisko in the later seasons, reaction to the Bajoran religion.
VOY - False Profits - Janeway, using Human standards, flat out rejects any concept that the Takarian religion might be correct or in any benefical.
After watching-through 80 percent of TNG, I had this striking thought:
Worf, having grown up AWAY from Klingons, only knowing ... really ... of his people through what he can study, read, etc at first... has sooooo high ideals, that I wonder if it's like a human trying to understand his culture by reading the Holy Bible and base their life, their understanding how things should be, all on a face-value reading of trying to replicate life as an Ancient-Near-East person. The problem would be this person exists in the 21st century and no one would have a clue what the Year Of Jubilee is, nor would he find The Temple, or the Ark Of The Convanent - or any Levitical Priests laying around.
I often wondered if your average, every-day, non-Starship commander Klingon, would look at Worf and say "What the hell are you talking about? You've read too many story books about us."
So, yes Klingons are hypocrits, because everyone is, but I wonder if Worf keeps trying to compare reality to an idealized existence that everyone else but him is in touch doesn't exist. Worf is a romantic, if there was one.
Also, as far as honor goes, and prisoners/no prisoners/not stabbing in back, etc... I wonder if part of what we experience is Klingon's changing views of humans/Federation. It could be that they were so thought down upon that they were not warriors, nor deserving or capable of honor, and were to be treated accordingly. They were devious and conniving. Humans were pests. Over the course of time this changed, somewhat.
Worf, having grown up AWAY from Klingons, only knowing ... really ... of his people through what he can study, read, etc at first... has sooooo high ideals, that I wonder if it's like a human trying to understand his culture by reading the Holy Bible and base their life, their understanding how things should be, all on a face-value reading of trying to replicate life as an Ancient-Near-East person. The problem would be this person exists in the 21st century and no one would have a clue what the Year Of Jubilee is, nor would he find The Temple, or the Ark Of The Convanent - or any Levitical Priests laying around.
I often wondered if your average, every-day, non-Starship commander Klingon, would look at Worf and say "What the hell are you talking about? You've read too many story books about us."
So, yes Klingons are hypocrits, because everyone is, but I wonder if Worf keeps trying to compare reality to an idealized existence that everyone else but him is in touch doesn't exist. Worf is a romantic, if there was one.
Also, as far as honor goes, and prisoners/no prisoners/not stabbing in back, etc... I wonder if part of what we experience is Klingon's changing views of humans/Federation. It could be that they were so thought down upon that they were not warriors, nor deserving or capable of honor, and were to be treated accordingly. They were devious and conniving. Humans were pests. Over the course of time this changed, somewhat.
I don't know where you're pulling this "envy" stuff from, but as I believe I have made abundantly clear before, I do not envy the Federation...I am suspicious of it and would not want to live there. Were I in the Trekiverse, I would emigrate AWAY from it. A non-Federation colony, populated by people from species that are IN the Federation...that might work. But a Federation member world...I don't want anything to do with it.
Klingons are just people. Nothing more and nothing less. Some Klingons are good and honorable people. Some are hypocritical bastards. Some are amoral SOBs. And some are honest folk. And there are plenty of others to be found at all points in between.
You know, just like real cultures.
You know, just like real cultures.
do you want to say religions are beneficial? 'false profits', two ferengi set themselves up as gods on a primitive planet to benefit no one but themselves. the bajorans, setting up some sort of wormhole aliens as gods, and claiming they want bajor to live in an oppressive cast society. i don't see any benefits other than for the members of the high castes, and those who claim their power to decide the fate of bajor is given to them by the prophets. centuries ago, the bajorans were more advanced then humans, but while humans threw all that trash overboard and established the federation, bajor remained trapped in a dark age, and became an easy prey for an aggressive species.
if starfleet has nothing but contempt for the pointless mumbojumbo which religions are, i certainly agree.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
No, they passed judgement on a system set up by and run by a machine that imposed its will on human beings by force, and rightly so.
Landru's "peace" left the inhabitants of that planet with as much free will as your average Borg drone.
So it's ok to kidnapp someone as long as you do it early enough and make sure that he grows up "one of you" so he doesn't even know he's been taken from his rightful place? Jono was and is a Federation citizen. It was Picard's DUTY to return him to his rightful society and family.
Show me where they stopped them from practicing said religion.
Given that the Ferengi were posing as "gods" and exploiting the people for their own profit, it was the right call.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
It was Bajoran faith that saw them through the Occupation and the Dominion War. It was Sisko's coming to faith that allowed him to be the Emmissary that the Bajorans needed to seal away the Pah Wraiths once and for all.
That some people do bad things in the name of religion does not necessarily make the religion bad (depends on the religion).
What does the Bajoran religion have to do with their caste system?
There was nothing on the show to suggest that the two were interconnected, and Bajoran religion lived on after Bajorans had abandoned the caste system.
An assumption. I assume it was their tenacious will to live, just like any other species.
Depends on the religion? Are there good religions and bad religions? That seems like the same kind of thing as saying 'My religion is right and yours is wrong.'
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