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The Not-So Virgin Queen

sticking your fingers in your ear each time each time mention is made that the Doctor (a 900 year old adult and a grandfather) might have got squelchy with someone.
I actually eye-roll.

The Doctor getting jiggy with it isn't an issue. I just find the idea of the not-so-virgin queen references to be unbearably cringe-worthy, like the show can't get by without shoehorning in puerile gags that we're supposed to be charmed by.

Most references to The Doctor having had comical run-ins with historical figures are eye-roll inducing.
 
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Secondly, trying to turn the character of the Doctor into a sexual or romantic figure (with regards to humans at least) makes the character less mysterious, is a cheap way of manufacturing drama on the level of bad slash fiction, and makes little sense when you consider Time Lords as more advanced than humans. The Doctor being in love with, say, Romana could make sense.
Yeah, the more human The Doctor is, the less interesting he is to me. I preferred the 9th Doctor casually flirting with that tree woman than any of the Doctor/Human relationships.
 
If the child being Nancy's was meant to be part of this grand exploration of sexuality you say the episode is, then it was certainly lost on me. Indeed, I can't see much exploration beyond showing a vision of wartime London where every man is secretly gay and trying to apply sexuality to the Doctor in a way not done in the show's 40 years outside of bad fanfics.

That's because you're operating from a very limited definition of "sexuality." The term does not only encompass the sex act or things related to physical attraction between adults. Sexuality is an entire spectrum of topics related to sexual attraction, emotional attraction, romantic love, reproduction, parenthood, and family. After all, what is sexuality? It is the characteristic of a species reproducing through the exchange of genetic information between two individuals rather than by simply copying genetic information from one individual; as such, the inherent consequence of sexuality is that it encompasses far more than simply the sex act. You're limiting the concept to mere attraction and the sex act -- the sensual aspects of sexuality -- when in fact the concept encompasses an entire spectrum of non-sensual, reproductive, familial behavior.

Sure, but notice you can leave any reference to sexuality out of that paragraph and it still makes sense. Indeed, I don't recall the episode making any reference to sexuality in regards to Nancy being the child's mother.

No, it doesn't make sense, because parenthood and sexuality are inextricably linked. There is no such thing as a virgin mother. When Nancy denies her motherhood, she retreats into the role of an asexual child because she appears young to other people -- denying her parenthood is, for her, equal to denying her own sexuality. It is the denial of sexuality that is the source of everyone's problems in that episode -- from the Doctor's emotional problems not knowing how to deal with his feelings for Rose because he's spent so long hiding his sexuality from others, to Nancy denying her sexuality because she doesn't want to be a mother.

Secondly, trying to turn the character of the Doctor into a sexual or romantic figure (with regards to humans at least) makes the character less mysterious, is a cheap way of manufacturing drama on the level of bad slash fiction, and makes little sense when you consider Time Lords as more advanced than humans.

The Time Lords are apparently more intelligent than Humans, but that doesn't mean they're more "advanced." The concept of being "more" or "less" advanced doesn't exist in evolution; organisms simply develop traits that are advantageous to survival and reproduction and therefore get passed on to the next generation.

Time Lords are apparently able to hold more information in their brains than a Human brain is capable of containing, but that doesn't mean they're more "advanced" than Humans. Indeed, the Doctor, in "Utopia," argues that Humans are more compassionate than Time Lords, because, had a Time Lord looked into the Heart of the TARDIS the way Rose did, he or she would have turned vengeful and destructive. Which, of course, is exactly what happened to the corrupt Time Lord society in the end under Rassilon -- they attempted to destroy everything other than themselves. They're a deeply corrupt society.

I don't think it's a great idea to fill a kids show with innuendo and smut just to look modern and as a way to disassociate itself from the classic series.

1. If you think that anything on Doctor Who qualifies as "smut," then you've been watching some incredibly tame porn.

2. Anything nuWho can do to dissociate itself from the passionless, emotionless, sexless excuse for "characterization" seen in the original series is fine by me.
 
I'm not in favour of reusing gags, so yeah, the one reference in The End of Time was enough for me. I thought it was funny then and somewhat subtle and burried in a long list of other crazy stuff. At least it has the benefit of explaining Elizabeth's anger in The Shakespeare Code, although it seems a bit out of character for Ten. That might have been the point since it falls in the time when he tried to run away from his fate and was maybe a bit emotionally unbalanced. Or we're missing important context here. One day, I'd like to hear the story to that, how he got to the point where he thought that was a good idea.
 
I really, really hope the Doctor was Sensible with Elizabeth I. It's almost certain she inherited syphilis from her father (who danced with all and sundry) and I don't like to think what that would do to a gallifreyan immune system.

Indeed, many historians argue that one of the reasons for Elizabeth I deliberately discontinuing the Tudor line was because of the STDs she carried from Henry VIII. The other reason, of course, being political. What would the Spanish have made of the Doctor?
 
I really, really hope the Doctor was Sensible with Elizabeth I. It's almost certain she inherited syphilis from her father (who danced with all and sundry) and I don't like to think what that would do to a gallifreyan immune system.

I sincerely doubt it would do anything to a Time Lord immune system. Their cells are probably too different for any Earth microbes to even use.
 
I really, really hope the Doctor was Sensible with Elizabeth I. It's almost certain she inherited syphilis from her father (who danced with all and sundry) and I don't like to think what that would do to a gallifreyan immune system.

Ten was a tough guy. After all, he survived plummeting from a spaceship onto a marble floor and an enormous dose of radiation (at least for a few hours). ;)


One day, I'd like to hear the story to that, how he got to the point where he thought that was a good idea.

The same way anyone does: Alcohol.

:lol:
 
THIS IS ONLY AS REGARDS DOCTOR FUCKING WHO.

I don't mind sex on TV in the least, but not in a kids show. As for comedy, so long as its target audience is adult, then there's not much that offends me. The thing most offensive to me in comedy is when it isn't funny. My favourite sitcom ever is probably Peep Show, so make of that what you will.

That shouty bit's really very funny in the context of this thread :lol:

And Dr Who is not a kids show. If it were a kids show it would be on CBBC at 4.30 in the afternoon like Sarah Jane. It's family entertainment and therefore has to appeal to a broad spectrum of ages, most of the references to sex are the kind of things that most kids won't get anyway. I used to love Carry on films when I was young, but it was only as I grew older that I realised how much inuendo was going right over my head as a youngster. And anyway, doesn't kids tv feature sex, amongst other things? I mean for goodness sake I'm pretty sure Grange Hill touched upon the subject more than once.

I'm not suggesting there should be full on talk of sex in Who, but to date there's only been one instance that, for me, went too far. It involved a paving slab and I've said quite enough about it over the years.

And it is a quirky world where kids should be protected from the notion of sex, but not of murder, torture, genocide and all the other quite adult things Who deals with all the time!
 
sticking your fingers in your ear each time each time mention is made that the Doctor (a 900 year old adult and a grandfather) might have got squelchy with someone.
I actually eye-roll.

The Doctor getting jiggy with it isn't an issue. I just find the idea of the not-so-virgin queen references to be unbearably cringe-worthy, like the show can't get by without shoehorning in puerile gags that we're supposed to be charmed by.

Most references to The Doctor having had comical run-ins with historical figures are eye-roll inducing.

You know there's an emoticon for that, right? ;)

Actually I do agree with you on that, what I was saying went out more to the people who just won't except the Doctor could have ever had sex or shouldnt be romantically involved ever. For the record I don't mind it, just don't want it all the time or to be the be all and end all of the show as it seemed to be at times with Ten/Rose.
 
I've no problem with the idea Doctor having sex (wouldn't want to dissapoint all those slash fic writers out there). Its a big universe and he's certainly visited a lot of it. Hell, on some planets I imagine its how people say hello.

As long as the Doctor doesn't make a big deal out of dwelling on it, I'm fine.
 
I'm not in favour of reusing gags, so yeah, the one reference in The End of Time was enough for me. I thought it was funny then and somewhat subtle and burried in a long list of other crazy stuff. At least it has the benefit of explaining Elizabeth's anger in The Shakespeare Code, although it seems a bit out of character for Ten. That might have been the point since it falls in the time when he tried to run away from his fate and was maybe a bit emotionally unbalanced. Or we're missing important context here. One day, I'd like to hear the story to that, how he got to the point where he thought that was a good idea.

Elizabeth I was brilliant, educated, creative, and one of the most fascinating and fabulous monarchs of history. Forget the older Judi-Dench-style version we saw in The Shakespere Code, and imagine her young, sexual, and with a brain so amazing the Doctor couldn't help but have one hell of a romp with her.

It is likely he left her after their marriage, and very likely this was when he was having trouble coming to terms with his prophesized 'death'.
 
Dude, they said that they used dancing as a metaphor for sex on Doctor Who Confidential. Moffat even wrote on the Outpost Gallifrey boards at the time that he meant dancing as a metaphor for sexuality and romance. The subtext of the entire "I thought the Universe ends if the Doctor dances" conversation between Rose and the Doctor is Rose asking the Doctor if he's asexual and the Doctor admitting that he isn't but it's been a long time.

And? I never went anywhere near Outpost Gallifrey and didn't watch Confidential back then, I actually had better things to do on a Saturday night being it was the tale end of my second year at uni and all! If it was metaphor for sex, then so be it, I haven't watched either episode in a while and I'm going on what I first thought five years ago and actually not given any thought to until reading what you said a matter of hours ago.

It's fairly obvious in the episodes, especially when the Doctor explains to Rose that, being a 51st Century guy, Jack is a bit more felxible when it comes to dance partners.

Well I got that much about Captain Jack and I loved that aspect about him. As I said, that was my thoughts five years ago and I haven't given it any thought in that time frame until it was mentioned here and Sci commented on it, I honest to god thought they were on about dancing, not sex. I think I will go and hang my head in shame for missing that about it.
 
I'm not in favour of reusing gags, so yeah, the one reference in The End of Time was enough for me. I thought it was funny then and somewhat subtle and burried in a long list of other crazy stuff. At least it has the benefit of explaining Elizabeth's anger in The Shakespeare Code, although it seems a bit out of character for Ten. That might have been the point since it falls in the time when he tried to run away from his fate and was maybe a bit emotionally unbalanced. Or we're missing important context here. One day, I'd like to hear the story to that, how he got to the point where he thought that was a good idea.

Elizabeth I was brilliant, educated, creative, and one of the most fascinating and fabulous monarchs of history. Forget the older Judi-Dench-style version we saw in The Shakespere Code, and imagine her young, sexual, and with a brain so amazing the Doctor couldn't help but have one hell of a romp with her.

It is likely he left her after their marriage, and very likely this was when he was having trouble coming to terms with his prophesized 'death'.

Nah. She was much more like Queenie from Blackadder II.
 
I'm not in favour of reusing gags, so yeah, the one reference in The End of Time was enough for me. I thought it was funny then and somewhat subtle and burried in a long list of other crazy stuff. At least it has the benefit of explaining Elizabeth's anger in The Shakespeare Code, although it seems a bit out of character for Ten. That might have been the point since it falls in the time when he tried to run away from his fate and was maybe a bit emotionally unbalanced. Or we're missing important context here. One day, I'd like to hear the story to that, how he got to the point where he thought that was a good idea.

Elizabeth I was brilliant, educated, creative, and one of the most fascinating and fabulous monarchs of history. Forget the older Judi-Dench-style version we saw in The Shakespere Code, and imagine her young, sexual, and with a brain so amazing the Doctor couldn't help but have one hell of a romp with her.

It is likely he left her after their marriage, and very likely this was when he was having trouble coming to terms with his prophesized 'death'.

It just seems pretty irresponsible, especially if he also married her. He knew he could never keep that commitment. We got the "I could never really be with you" speech to Rose in Journey's End and then he jumps into bed with Liz?
 
It just seems pretty irresponsible, especially if he also married her. He knew he could never keep that commitment. We got the "I could never really be with you" speech to Rose in Journey's End and then he jumps into bed with Liz?
I kinda imagine that the marriage was necessary as the result of some ridiculous adventure.
 
I read more of this thread and why is Doc Who a kid show ? its not and never has been. Doctor Who is a family show and one in the 21st century not the 60's/70's or 80's. The sort of sexual jokes have never really crossed the line not too mention most kids won't even notice such references and the adults will smile and move on. There is nothing wrong with a family show having sexual references, I mean its not like The Doctor is having actual sex on screen or actually doing anything really to some really bad porn tune playing in the background...

though I wouldn't mind hearing a Murray Gold porn theme :lol:
 
I read more of this thread and why is Doc Who a kid show ? its not and never has been.

Steven Moffat views it as a kid's show.

Calling Dr Who a children's show isn't a definition of the audience, it's a definition of the SHOW. In style, pace, tone, sensibility, Dr Who stories are children's stories. Like Harry Potter, Star Wars, The Hobbit, Narnia, Toy Story, The Incredibles and all gorgeous, magical stuff. Does that mean it's not for adults? Don't be daft, adults love children's stories - just look at that list. Some of the most famous creations in the human history! People who grow out of children's stories are people who never understood them in the first place.

Grown-ups are not excluded from this party. Grown-ups are specifically targetted and invited. There are are generally at least two grown-ups per family, and we want the whole of that family round that telly. And we want each of them secretly thinking this programme is really for THEM.

The children's own programme that adults adore. Never been said better. That's what it is. That's what it says on the tin.


From 'The Doctor Who Forum'.
 
That's why I'd like to know the story behind that sentence. :)
The Doctor and the Queen were battling some form of alien life that is only horrified by sexual reproduction and marriage. They didn't make it into an episode because the whole adventure lasted twenty minutes. And that included the time it took to eat the pizza.
 
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