Section 31--Let's try and settle this!

[Rush Limborg]

^BRAVO!

Now...

Using Odo was deplorable and that was Section31's dirty deed. There probably wouldn't have been another way to introduce the disease to the Founders.

So it was either use a Federation ally to infect the Founders with a lethal disease from which he'd probably also die- or let the Federation be conquered. You lose either way. If you infect Odo you have lost sight of what you are fighting for- to keep the Federation and its ideals and principles alive. Infecting Odo betrays those principles

Therefore I think Section31 was not justified in its actions.

Y'know, it's funny--the fact that they had a cure in the first place gives me pause.

What was the purpose of the cure? Was it a "just in case"--a backup plan for something unfortunate happening (such as Odo's contraction of the virus)? Or was it for the purpose of blackmail/bribery--i.e., offering the cure in exchange for a surrender? Perhaps both?

(Also, the fact that Sloan was captured SO easily in "Extreme Measures" implies, for me at least, that there was something going on then, wheels within wheels. Was it possible that Sloan planned to be captured, and to fake his death, so as to preserve plausible deniablility? Just saying....)

 

[Mr Pointy Ears]

section 31 would ended up being something like the romulan's Tal shiar, where everyone is afraid of them.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Actually Section 31 is the opposite of the Tal Shiar, in that S31 doesn't exist to enforce Federation policy or to punish traitors. The whole point of S31 is *not* to be feared, or even to be known about. The Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order, on the other hand, are basically made to encourage fear among the populace.

 

[StarryEyed]

(Also, the fact that Sloan was captured SO easily in "Extreme Measures" implies, for me at least, that there was something going on then, wheels within wheels. Was it possible that Sloan planned to be captured, and to fake his death, so as to preserve plausible deniablility? Just saying....)

There is no question that Extreme Measures was a very weak episode. There is absolutely no way the character we were given is going to fall for O'Brien/Bashir's transparent ploy. Even if he did, he wouldn't be alone. There would have to be a cloaked Section 31 ship nearby - with their ability to beam aboard the station undetected. They are not going to just stand by while Sloan is captured - unless it's a fake Sloan.

 

[Rush Limborg]

I have resurrected this thread due to a potential regaining of interest--as well as the possible addition of fresh blood.

Let's try for Round 2.

 

[StarryEyed]

...it's a practical certainty that 31 therefore has phasing cloaks of its own, after the discovery that the tech worked. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that 31 had a hand in the research and development.

I always figured 31 absolutely had to have impenetrable cloaks because otherwise, how could they remain undetected by DS9. I've also wondered about their transporter tech because Kira said there was no transporter signature in Bashir's quarters. Maybe using a transporter from a phase-cloaked ship conceals the signature.

 

[Enterprise1981]

Thought I'd bring this back with the Rough Beasts of Empire review thread becoming just a platform for discussion of Section 31.

I would guess that the organization started with the best of intentions, but then followed that old axiom that "power corrupts." One of my fan-fiction series has indicated that Article 14, Section 31 of the original Starfleet Charter can be interpreted many different ways; otherwise, the notion that Section 31 officially does not exist would fuel a Glenn Beck conspiracy theory.

The current remake of Nikita presents the premise that a "secret unit" of the US government has gone rogue. They even get paid by multinational corporations to carry out political assassinations. Abyss had a similar premise with Ethan Locken having "broken away" from 31, suggesting even The Bureau will not cross certain boundaries.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^It's also worth noting that the Federation Starfleet Charter--if we're going by the books, specifically Cloak--puts in its "Section 31" (I'm guessing it's in Article 14, as well) more specifically referrs to the creation of "an autonomous investigative agency" with broad, undefined discretionary powers.

 

[TeutonicNights]

What if Section 31 of the Charter does not refer to an actual organization, but is some grey area part of the fed charter, maybe an intentionally created loophole, made because the founding fathers knew their utopian constitution may not be able deal accordingly with dangers that were probable to occur?

I'm thinking about something like section 4 of article 20 in the German constitution, where it allows every citizen to resist in case someone tries to undermine or abolish the order of freedom and democracy. It never had any consequences and it's very unique, but let's say the Fed Charter has something like it.

Like section 31 were never an actual organization, but a loose and ever-changing network of individuals who believe that what they're doing was to preserve the constitution and if that is actually the case was never publicly questioned.
.
As long as their goals met with the government's and they don't become a full.fledged organization there would be no reason (and maybe a shaky basis to begin with) to go after them. Plus there would always be the danger of a constitutional crisis if their actions would be laid open.

Just a thought.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Hmm.

On that, I'm actually reminded of Rudyard Kipling's "The Gods of the Copybook Headings".

The poem concerns a "group" among humanity--the more realistic, "cynical" class--which serves as a check against the "idealism" which, while at first beneficial--invariably, after a while, becomes harmful and detrimental to the world.

Whenever that happens--when the idealism of "The Gods of the Marketplace" goes out of hand, "The Gods of the Copybook Headings limp up to explain it once more", and strive to repair the damage done.

(The trouble, as the poem explains, is that each "cycle" results in a greater amount of damage being done--until the last era, if we're not careful, ends in The Gods of the Copybook Headings heralding the comming of "terror and slaughter"....)

 

[Admiral Shran]

(Also, the fact that Sloan was captured SO easily in "Extreme Measures" implies, for me at least, that there was something going on then, wheels within wheels. Was it possible that Sloan planned to be captured, and to fake his death, so as to preserve plausible deniablility? Just saying....)

There is no question that Extreme Measures was a very weak episode. There is absolutely no way the character we were given is going to fall for O'Brien/Bashir's transparent ploy. Even if he did, he wouldn't be alone. There would have to be a cloaked Section 31 ship nearby - with their ability to beam aboard the station undetected. They are not going to just stand by while Sloan is captured - unless it's a fake Sloan.

That makes sense since Sloan was always five steps ahead of everyone, even the genetically enhanced Bashir. However, if that's true then you'd have to argue that Section 31 wanted Bashir to get his hands on the cure, and, by implication, that they wanted the Dominion to get ahold of it. The only way that makes sense is if 31 honestly anticipated the outcome which followed - that Odo would trade the cure for the surrender of the Dominion.

I suppose it could have happened that way. 31 had shown a willingness to use Bashir's idealism to their benefit. Maybe they only ever meant the virus to be a ruse - something that would force the Dominion to end the war without actually killing all of the Founders.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^I'm actually giving very serious thought to that theory, myself....

 

[Cyke101]

I voted option 4, but frankly that's what made them such good villains to start with. Sloan, you dirty mutha -- (why do I love you so?)

 

[Dancing Doctor]

One of the issues I have with Section 31's portrayal (for the record, I voted Option 1 but thinking back I probably agree more with Option 2) is the fact that the only time we see them in action is either during a time of war (Deep Space 9 Season Six and onward) or during a time of potential war, with far less cohesion and unity among planets (Enterprise). The rules aren't really the same, and the environment that all this occurs isn't the same.

 

[reversepolarity]

I think it's very hard to call something like this - you'll only ever know if you played it right with hindsight - a great example of ds9 being way ahead of its time, as with several of its political storylines.

 

[infinix]

That makes sense since Sloan was always five steps ahead of everyone, even the genetically enhanced Bashir. However, if that's true then you'd have to argue that Section 31 wanted Bashir to get his hands on the cure, and, by implication, that they wanted the Dominion to get ahold of it. The only way that makes sense is if 31 honestly anticipated the outcome which followed - that Odo would trade the cure for the surrender of the Dominion.

I suppose it could have happened that way. 31 had shown a willingness to use Bashir's idealism to their benefit. Maybe they only ever meant the virus to be a ruse - something that would force the Dominion to end the war without actually killing all of the Founders.

This is exactly what I've always thought about the episode. Sloan has faked his death before, and Section 31 has shown that it has the ability to infiltrate and retreat from any place at will. I believe that Section 31 always planned to use the virus as a tool to force the Dominion to retreat and sign a peace treaty.

If the Dominion were forced into a corner (as it would be had the Founders died) it could become completely unpredictable in its actions and will very likely choose to fight to the last Jem'Hadar and inflicting much greater damage to the Federation. Take for example what happened between the US and Japan during WWII. Had the US dropped the atomic bomb on Tokyo and Kyoto, killing the emperor of Japan, who the soldiers treat as god, the military would have fought to the last man to avenge their god. Instead, the US forced the emperor to sign an unconditional surrender. Tens of thousands of innocent Japanese citizens died, but damage to the Allied Forces were reduced drastically for it.

In this sense, what Section 31 accomplished is somewhat similar to what the US accomplished during the war.

 

[Enterprise1981]

I think it's very hard to call something like this - you'll only ever know if you played it right with hindsight.

Thinking back, outside of Malcolm Reed's brief dealings with The Bureau, we only really saw Section 31 from Julian Bashir's point of view. S31, of course, became a scapegoat for other less-than-reputable activities of Starfleet officers. I'll buy that Section 31 was experimenting with phasing cloak and that the cloaking device Kirk and company captured was the template, but not that Section 31 ordered that mission. The Khitomer conspiracy would not appear to be a Section 31 operation after they were willing to help Archer and company undermine Terra Prime.

 

[Sybok]

hmmmm earth or a pool of genocidal talking goo... i choose earth

 

[Solarbaby]

I wonder if there will ever be a story where Section31 actually do something which has a positive outcome for once

 

[Photon]

Hell Yes! The Dominion didn't play by rules of war, therefore the Feds were fair in all they did to win the war and save lives from both sides (sounds like WWII).

I would have S31 send unmanned drones loaded w/torpedoes crashing into the FWP (new and old) and ended the damn thing