NERO was the most successful villian of all of the films

[Cyke101]

I do, however, see you up to your old trick of attempted escalation by way of hyperbole: representing his post as something it clearly was not, then overreacting to your own misrepresentation. I'll invite you once again to drop that tactic, and to drop it now.

In case it isn't apparent I'm not scared of you.

I'm not aiming to get mixed in on any of this, but I didn't see M'Sharak say anything that was supposed to intimidate or scare anyone, either, just merely enforce the rules. If anything, this line really does look like escalation through hyperbole.

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Back on topic, Khan was dead center in the midst of a devastating global conflict, then escaped. That has to count for something in the long run.

 

[Withers]

If anything, this line really does look like escalation through hyperbole.

Except that we weren't fighting and I was making fun of myself. Show me where in the rules a moderator has the right to police the tone of a post (or for that matter whether or not its centered or whether or not a poster uses attribution tags or whether or not a poster links to his sources) and I'll eat my words. If emphatic sarcasm that doesn't insult or bait anyone (I've read enough of Nerys Myk's post to know who I'm dealing with) is now against the rules then I'm not the only one in violation and I'm sick of being treated that way.

You might not see it but every single thread I've ever made or replied to in this forum has been met with this same smug, condescending attitude. "I'm the moderator and I don't like your tone and I'm going to make sure you and everybody else hears about it!" If you really want the evidence PM me and I'll show you- since, you know, by replying to that at all, you kind of did throw yourself in the mix whether you wanted to do so or not.

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Back on topic, Khan was dead center in the midst of a devastating global conflict, then escaped. That has to count for something in the long run.

How many people were supposedly killed in the Eugenics Wars? I know they brought it up in DS9 but I'm not entirely sure if a number was ever mentioned. I seem to recall the count being pretty high... but not billions I don't think.

-Withers-​

 

[SheliakBob]

Some facts about Nero:

He sneezed once. Hobus.

The Red Matter didn't destroy Vulcan, it sucked itself out of existence because it knew Nero was mad at it.

Delta Vega really did use to be on the edge of the galaxy. Nero warp-skiied it all the way to Vulcan as a lark.

Wiping out seven starships full of Starfleet Academy cadets was his way of starting Spring Break with a bang.

Oh, there's more....much much more...

 

[Darth Duck]

Back on topic, Khan was dead center in the midst of a devastating global conflict, then escaped. That has to count for something in the long run.

How many people were supposedly killed in the Eugenics Wars? I know they brought it up in DS9 but I'm not entirely sure if a number was ever mentioned. I seem to recall the count being pretty high... but not billions I don't think.

-Withers-​

30-35 million dead according to "Cold Station 12."

 

[SG-17]

AND Nero killed Jim Kirk's daddy (indirectly)
AND Nero killed Captain Robau (blasphemy!)
AND Nero permanently altered the timeline.
And Nero paralyzed Captain Pike via torture.
AND Nero reduced 47 klingon ships and a squadron of Starfleet ships to ashes.

Was it ever stated that Pike was paralyzed? I mean he picked up the disruptor and shot two Romulans.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Works in real life. Something happens. Guy goes crazy. Looks for someone to blame

See, I'd totally buy that if he came off as crazy and not just stupid. If he had suffered some form of... I dunno, mental break down that lead him to make these wildly absurd connections from one event to another, I'd buy it. But instead he just came off as being somewhat...lazy in what he directed his vengeance at. He just didn't work as a villain for me. I think, largely, that had to do with giving the main heroes as much screen time as possible. I'm glad they didn't go with the TNG-movie bit of "Only give Beverly 3 lines" business. Hopefully in the next movie they'll be able to go with something a little meatier because a well executed villain could move this re-boot from good to epic.

-Withers-​

I guess we read Bana's Nero differently. To me he came across as quite disturbed when talking to "Christopher". More so than he did with when talking with Robau.

The connections seem tight. Spock tells Romulans he will save their planet using red matter. He doesn't get there in time and Romulas and Ms Nero die. Nero is also near Romulas, he knows about Spock's plan and sees him fail. Nero is not happy. Spock still destroys the "Supernova" and he and Nero are sucked in the "blackhole". They wind up the new Universe. Nero is still not happy. He wants to find Spock but Spock's not there. Nero gets even more unhappy. He calculates when Spock should arrive and makes plans to meet him. Spock arrives, with some Red Matter in tow. Nero comes up ith a plan: use the Red Matter to destroy Vulcan while Spock watches. Nero is a little happier. Later he finds out he can torment two Spocks. He cheers up even more. The Spocks, Kirk and the Enterprise foil his plan. He is very unhappy.

 

[Withers]

It's not Spock's fault though. He tried to save Romulus he just wasn't successful. If something he had done had caused the supernova to happen I could understand it but we're talking about the one guy who tried to save their planet and just couldn't accomplish that being blamed for failing...

So who would Nero have blamed if no one had tried? I understand the concept of rational anger being misdirected but in this case Nero didn't seem crazy enough to make the wild leap required to blame Spock for the destruction of Romulus. I would have even bought if he was just driven indiscriminately crazy- 25 years and the realization he can't go home again causes him to just lash out at whoever he can hit- fine. I'd go with it. But he was calculative and measured in his behavior and I find it...difficult to accept that someone capable of those two things would be so irrational as to blame Spock for what happened and to have that as an overwhelming motive.

It's sort of like why people can't commit crimes of passion six days after the fact. At some point the excuse "I was out of my head with rage" is no longer acceptable. 25 years seems like it'd be enough time to come up with a more reasonable...plot for revenge.

-Withers-​

 

[Nerys Myk]

It's not Spock's fault though. He tried to save Romulus he just wasn't successful. If something he had done had caused the supernova to happen I could understand it but we're talking about the one guy who tried to save their planet and just couldn't accomplish that being blamed for failing...

So who would Nero have blamed if no one had tried? I understand the concept of rational anger being misdirected but in this case Nero didn't seem crazy enough to make the wild leap required to blame Spock for the destruction of Romulus. I would have even bought if he was just driven indiscriminately crazy- 25 years and the realization he can't go home again causes him to just lash out at whoever he can hit- fine. I'd go with it. But he was calculative and measured in his behavior and I find it...difficult to accept that someone capable of those two things would be so irrational as to blame Spock for what happened and to have that as an overwhelming motive.

It's sort of like why people can't commit crimes of passion six days after the fact. At some point the excuse "I was out of my head with rage" is no longer acceptable. 25 years seems like it'd be enough time to come up with a more reasonable...plot for revenge.

-Withers-​

All types of crazy in the world. Some are short fused some simmer. Obsession is a funny thing.

 

[Withers]

All types of crazy in the world. Some are short fused some simmer. Obsession is a funny thing.

That's fair enough. I guess all I was really saying is that I would have preferred... Heart of Darkness crazy over, say, Jean Valjean crazy.

-Withers-​

 

[F. King Daniel]

One thing: Spock *promised* Nero and the Romulans that he would save their planet. I remember thinking "Promised? A bit strong for Spock". He failed. Romulus died.

Thus I can understand Nero feeling betrayed, hurt and it's not so big a leap to think it was maybe a Federation plot all along. Spock has a high success rate at saving the universe. We assume Nero knew about Spock's history because he knew and recognised Kirk.

He lost his wife and unborn child. IMO that's all you need to go nuts at a known galactic hero who promised to save them.

 

[Pauln6]

V'Ger was the most successful. It was the only 'villain' that succeeded in its ultimate goal.

 

[Jeyl]

Well, Spock may not have saved Romulas, but at least he tried. Ya, it's all Spock's fault that Nero's pregnant wife was killed by this unpredictable force of nature that was out of everyone's control and understanding.

Hey idiot, if your house was about to be burned down and someone else said they would put out the fire, don't leave your pregnant wife in the bloody house while you hope for the best!

You may call Nero a successful villain, but his motivations are complete bullsh**. A successful villain with a stupid motivation is a pretty dull thing.

 

[Agenda]

Nero was kinda crazy. He wasn't all there.

 

[Jeyl]

Nero was kinda crazy. He wasn't all there.

And why should that make any sense? It doesn't. It's just a vague explanation that comes out more like a write off than a legitimate reason to why Nero is the way he is. I can make an evil bad guy and have him be crazy for no reason, but that doesn't make him believable or realistic. It just makes him a character that reads more like a plot device than something we should invest in.

 

[Cyke101]

you know, by replying to that at all, you kind of did throw yourself in the mix whether you wanted to do so or not.

Just an observation, friend. Life's too short to get worked up over posting style on a Trek board.

Back on topic, Khan was dead center in the midst of a devastating global conflict, then escaped. That has to count for something in the long run.

How many people were supposedly killed in the Eugenics Wars? I know they brought it up in DS9 but I'm not entirely sure if a number was ever mentioned. I seem to recall the count being pretty high... but not billions I don't think.

-Withers-​

30-35 million dead according to "Cold Station 12."

There's the ramifications of such a conflict as well, I should think. The aftermath of devastated regions, cultural development fundamentally changed, history books written -- that can all come from isolated conflicts like the Balkans or Somalia, but expand that to the millions and the effect spreads like a plague.

Depending on your preferred Trek school of canon, the Eugenics Wars helped lead into World War III or it really >was< World War III, but in either case it's major enough to have ramifications hundreds of years after the war.

 

[Agenda]

Nero was kinda crazy. He wasn't all there.

And why should that make any sense? It doesn't. It's just a vague explanation that comes out more like a write off than a legitimate reason to why Nero is the way he is. I can make an evil bad guy and have him be crazy for no reason, but that doesn't make him believable or realistic. It just makes him a character that reads more like a plot device than something we should invest in.

I've seen people get driven crazy (at least in movies) for lesser things than having your planet blown up. To me, it's a credible motivation.

He's mad.

 

[Jeyl]

He's mad.

Mad at what? Spock? Why would he be mad at Spock? Because he failed to save Romulus? Well, unless Nero has some better idea on how Spock could have saved Romulus, there's no real reason to be mad at him.

And why would he be mad at the Federation? What could the federation do that Romulus couldn't do themselves? I mean, if you look on the insides of the Narada, that ship clearly has the capacity to fit like two entire cities worth of people. Nero had just as much means to save thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of Romulans, including his wife. Why didn't he do anything?

 

[F. King Daniel]

I can already tell you'll dismiss anything "non canon", but in Countdown, Nero tried to get her to go on the ship with him. She refused, saying Romulus was her home and if it was Romulus' time to die she would die with her people.

 

[Withers]

Just an observation, friend. Life's too short to get worked up over posting style on a Trek board.

I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly if I'd said it myself.

Mad at what? Spock? Why would he be mad at Spock? Because he failed to save Romulus? Well, unless Nero has some better idea on how Spock could have saved Romulus, there's no real reason to be mad at him.

And why would he be mad at the Federation? What could the federation do that Romulus couldn't do themselves? I mean, if you look on the insides of the Narada, that ship clearly has the capacity to fit like two entire cities worth of people. Nero had just as much means to save thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of Romulans, including his wife. Why didn't he do anything?

Exactly. I just don't feel like his motivation was there and thus, for me, he wasn't successful coming across as a villain so much as just a necessary antagonist for the film. There were so many easy tweaks that could have been made to change that. A really quick example would be this;

If Spock told the Romulans, "I'll save your planet, I promise," then went and used the Red Matter which then hastened or outright ignited the Super Nova that wasn't due to go off for another year or so, then it could be considered his fault and Nero would have every reason to be angry at him for cutting the time table for the evacuation of Romulus down to minutes rather than months. That would make sense.

As it stands, however, it was more like blaming a firefighter who couldn't prevent ones house from burning down but did try (unlike all the neighbors.)

-Withers-​

 

[Nerys Myk]

He's mad.

Mad at what? Spock? Why would he be mad at Spock? Because he failed to save Romulus? Well, unless Nero has some better idea on how Spock could have saved Romulus, there's no real reason to be mad at him.

And why would he be mad at the Federation? What could the federation do that Romulus couldn't do themselves? I mean, if you look on the insides of the Narada, that ship clearly has the capacity to fit like two entire cities worth of people. Nero had just as much means to save thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of Romulans, including his wife. Why didn't he do anything?

I hope you dont plan on becoming a psychologist.

Mad is another way of saying he's crazy, nuts, psycho, off his rocker. "He went mad with grief." "They sent her to the Mad House." "Are you mad? Thats a crazy idea." It goes far beyond being upset.