What Amazes Me

[Pauln6]

At the time the decision to destroy Nero is taken, he isn't a threat.

And how were they so sure he wasn't a threat?

They weren't.

Well, I asssumed it was because their sensors told them he wasn't a threat. That much was suggested in dialogue. If they thought he was still a threat, they could have shown that in dialogue instead. Overall, any response is a judgment call. They didn't know that there were no children or innocent prisoners on board the Narada either (although that information might have been gleaned by Spock from the computers). On balance, I think that the way in which the summary execution was presented was a departure from the Federation principle we saw TOS.

Lord knows they have reasons to hate Nero but that kind of tit for tat killing leads to further killing - we see it all over the world today. It's missed opportunity for the writers to show that the Federation doesn't hold with that sort of thing. The Federation is liberal. I'm uneasy at any suggestion that they want to make it less so quite so casually or that being liberal is intrinsically bad or weak.

The sense of satisfaction that both Kirk and Spock display when they decide to destroy the ship is also rather disturbing. I'd have been happier if they had established in dialogue that the ship was still a threat and salivated less when they did the deed.

 

[Nerys Myk]

There must be a version of General Order 24 that covers such actions.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Hmmmm. As much as NuKirk and NuSpock enjoyed killing Nero and his crew, it's possible that the Abramsverse may be evolving into another version of the Mirror universe. Kirk and Spock were both pretty ruthless in the MU. Even NuSulu had a little smirk on his face when they destroyed the Narada. I can see the Mirror universe implications here. Maybe that's what they were going for. To see who would notice?

 

[RookieBatman]

Lord knows they have reasons to hate Nero but that kind of tit for tat killing leads to further killing - we see it all over the world today. It's missed opportunity for the writers to show that the Federation doesn't hold with that sort of thing. The Federation is liberal. I'm uneasy at any suggestion that they want to make it less so quite so casually or that being liberal is intrinsically bad or weak.

Not to start a political discussion, but I would like to point out that liberals aren't the only ones that care about preserving human (or Romulan) life. There are a lot of people with deep concern for human life on both sides of the political spectrum.

For now.

And now they have an opportunity to become, as David Gerrold called this type of story at a writers' workshop in the 80s, "the man who learns better".

I hope you're right, but I'm not holding my breath. Still, I'll continue watching the movies as the come out (but at matinee prices, so I won't feel like I wasted my money if I don't like it), in the hopes that they might eventually develop into something more like the Kirk and Spock we know and love, but I'm not expecting it.

 

[Withers]

There are a lot of people with deep concern for human life on both sides of the political spectrum.

One knows something has gone wrong when statements like this need to be made.

Still, I'll continue watching the movies as the come out (but at matinee prices, so I won't feel like I wasted my money if I don't like it), in the hopes that they might eventually develop into something more like the Kirk and Spock we know and love, but I'm not expecting it.

This is why I never liked the idea of a re-boot of the TOS characters in the first place. The people who really like that set of characters will wait (likely forever) for the new cast to turn into Shatner and friends. That's not going to happen though so the idea of appeasing them seems unlikely at best. Speaking for myself alone I would have been a lot happier to just vest in brand new characters that weren't constantly being lampooned based on their shortcomings by comparison to a nearly half century old television show. (Even though I quoted you that wasn't directed at you RookieBatman.)

-Withers-​

 

[RookieBatman]

Still, I'll continue watching the movies as the come out (but at matinee prices, so I won't feel like I wasted my money if I don't like it), in the hopes that they might eventually develop into something more like the Kirk and Spock we know and love, but I'm not expecting it.

This is why I never liked the idea of a re-boot of the TOS characters in the first place. The people who really like that set of characters will wait (likely forever) for the new cast to turn into Shatner and friends. That's not going to happen though so the idea of appeasing them seems unlikely at best. Speaking for myself alone I would have been a lot happier to just vest in brand new characters that weren't constantly being lampooned based on their shortcomings by comparison to a nearly half century old television show. (Even though I quoted you that wasn't directed at you RookieBatman.)

-Withers-​

I absolutely agree that it would've been personally preferable to just have a brand new set of characters. A small corner of my mind still holds out hope that this movie series will somehow spawn a TV series featuring an original crew at around the same timeframe as the ongoing movies. But then I wake up.
As for the characters turning into Shatner and friends, I will say that I don't mind if they're not exact clones of the old characters. I can understand the new creators (and certainly, the actors) putting their own tweaks into the characters. But I do hope to see at least some of the redeeming qualities that made me appreciate the original characters in the first place.
To illustrate, "The Corbomite Maneuver" is my favorite episode of TOS; if you would (each of you in his/her own mind), just imagine how that episode would've gone if nuKirk and crew had been there. I, personally, don't think it would've turned out as well.

 

[Pauln6]

I actually rather liked the way they rebooted it. Modern story-telling might allow them to explore more aspects of the characters. I'm not overly unhappy if the characters are changed as a result of the monkeying with the timeline. If they're aiming to turn the Federation into something more like the MU then that is a very interesting way to go. However, I don't think that's what they were doing and if it was, it will be hard to allude to it if Nimoy really is retiring from acting because there will be nobody to refer back to the way it should be.

One possible way is if Kirk's mind meld gave him a sense of the way things should be but since it is Kirk's maverick, risk-taking style, premature promotion, and his decision to authorise a summary execution that give me pause, I'm not sure how he can also be the stabilising influence on a more oppressive Federation!

 

[Withers]

A small corner of my mind still holds out hope that this movie series will somehow spawn a TV series featuring an original crew at around the same timeframe as the ongoing movies. But then I wake up.

I feel as though if we're going to see a new television series anytime within the next 20 years or so it'll be between the second and third movie or after the third one. I really have my fingers crossed they'll go with an original crew and not try something... dumb (like putting different actors than the ones from the movies in the role but having it be set in the same timeline.)

Modern story-telling might allow them to explore more aspects of the characters.

That's my point. It isn't so much that I care what they do with them but if what they're going to do is explore previously undeveloped personality traits and characteristics of the TOS era crew (which they pretty much have to based on putting them in an alternate time line)... why not just write new characters rather than usurp the hard work of someones* else?

I realize they needed a "hook" to get people into theaters but they touted it as "Not my father's Trek" so why not just... you know, not make it my fathers Trek? The visuals are what brought in the numbers... not the overwhelming writing or the fact that Kirk and Spock were re-imagined.

*I had to look this up and according to my research that's actually the proper grammatical way to say that. Any other grammarians with a thought on that PM me.

-Withers-​

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I'm not sure how he can also be the stabilising influence on a more oppressive Federation!

And where in the film was the Federation established as oppressive?

 

[Devon]

Hmmmm. As much as NuKirk and NuSpock enjoyed killing Nero and his crew, it's possible that the Abramsverse may be evolving into another version of the Mirror universe. Kirk and Spock were both pretty ruthless in the MU. Even NuSulu had a little smirk on his face when they destroyed the Narada. I can see the Mirror universe implications here. Maybe that's what they were going for. To see who would notice?

Undiscovered Country. Racist Kirk enjoying destoying a defenseless BOP, McCoy happy to build a torpedo to destroy it, etc.

They're human. Even Picard gets a little joy out of killing

 

[Pauln6]

Actually, I'm one of the few who doesn't like TUC all that much (I don't dislike it but TwoK, TSfS, TVH, TMP, and NuTrek rate more highly for me). I found it too self-indulgent and (much like NuTrek) they forced humour into situations when it makes characters look unpleasant or incompetent (e.g. the rampant racism of the entire senior staff apart from Spock; Uhura can't speak a word of Klingon; Chekov (a former security chief) knows nothing about starship security; time is of the essence but instead of an engineer or a scientifically trained (Genesis survey) former head of security, Spock asks the ship's doctor for assistance).

Best thing about the movie was the return of Janice and yay she's still as dumb as hay!

As for NuTrek, I wasn't suggesting that the movie showed the Federation as oppresive (incompetent yes, oppresisive no) but I was postulating on where they might lead if the changes to the timeline were shown to affect Federation policy so that they have become more hard line. I think the differing policies just reflect modern writers lack of understanding of earlier Trek's ideals rather than a conscious decision to show that the timeline had altered matters. Spock Prime is the only person who can comment on any changes so I don't think we will see this developed as a theme.

Actually, if (as I hope) they feature Carol Danvers in the sequel, she would be a good foil to examine Federation policy rather than just being a damsel in distress.

 

[Jeyl]

Undiscovered Country. Racist Kirk enjoying destoying a defenseless BOP, McCoy happy to build a torpedo to destroy it, etc.

At least in TUC, the racist part of Kirk was treated as an obstacle that he had to overcome and later admit that he was wrong to view all Klingons that way after his brief encounter Gorkon.

Even Picard, who admittedly feels like a different character entirely in the movies than from the series, looks back at his actions at how he killed the Borg and comes to the understanding that he has been beaten, not just by the Borg but also himself.

With Nukirk, there's nothing. The only obstacle he had to overcome was simply taking command of the Enterprise and stopping the bad guy. There was no 'human' element to his character because the elements that old Kirk had, like how his views on the 'no-win" scenario were treated as a flaw, are treated here as a strength.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Actually, if (as I hope) they feature Carol Danvers in the sequel, she would be a good foil to examine Federation policy rather than just being a damsel in distress.

Carol Danvers, aka Ms. Marvel?

Do you mean Carol Marcus?

the elements that old Kirk had, like how his views on the 'no-win" scenario were treated as a flaw, are treated here as a strength.

What flaw? Kirk Prime got a commendation for original thinking.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Hmmmm. As much as NuKirk and NuSpock enjoyed killing Nero and his crew, it's possible that the Abramsverse may be evolving into another version of the Mirror universe. Kirk and Spock were both pretty ruthless in the MU. Even NuSulu had a little smirk on his face when they destroyed the Narada. I can see the Mirror universe implications here. Maybe that's what they were going for. To see who would notice?

Undiscovered Country. Racist Kirk enjoying destoying a defenseless BOP, McCoy happy to build a torpedo to destroy it, etc.

They're human. Even Picard gets a little joy out of killing

Hell, just think of poor Ensign Lynch.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Hmmmm. As much as NuKirk and NuSpock enjoyed killing Nero and his crew, it's possible that the Abramsverse may be evolving into another version of the Mirror universe. Kirk and Spock were both pretty ruthless in the MU. Even NuSulu had a little smirk on his face when they destroyed the Narada. I can see the Mirror universe implications here. Maybe that's what they were going for. To see who would notice?

Undiscovered Country. Racist Kirk enjoying destoying a defenseless BOP, McCoy happy to build a torpedo to destroy it, etc.

They're human. Even Picard gets a little joy out of killing

I wouldn't say that Kirk "enjoyed" destroying the BoP. Chang was beating the hell out of the Enterprise and they had no choice but to destroy it or be destroyed. His reaction was more of desperation than enjoyment, in my opinion. And Bones didn't look "happy" to me when he was helping Spock build the torpedo. It was a necessity. They had to devise some way of detecting the BoP so they could stop it before it blew them to smithereens. The difference is that the Narada was not a threat. The BoP in TUC was most definitely a threat. The Narada was already gone. Even if Kirk hadn't given the order to "fire everything we've got", the Narada would have been broken into little bite sized morsels and sucked into the black hole anyway. Those are two totally different situations.

 

[Pauln6]

Actually, if (as I hope) they feature Carol Danvers in the sequel, she would be a good foil to examine Federation policy rather than just being a damsel in distress.

Carol Danvers, aka Ms. Marvel?

Do you mean Carol Marcus?

Whoops Freudian slip! I do mean Marcus. Still Danvers could be hot too... meh I'd settle for Janice Rand.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Hmmmm. As much as NuKirk and NuSpock enjoyed killing Nero and his crew, it's possible that the Abramsverse may be evolving into another version of the Mirror universe. Kirk and Spock were both pretty ruthless in the MU. Even NuSulu had a little smirk on his face when they destroyed the Narada. I can see the Mirror universe implications here. Maybe that's what they were going for. To see who would notice?

Undiscovered Country. Racist Kirk enjoying destoying a defenseless BOP, McCoy happy to build a torpedo to destroy it, etc.

They're human. Even Picard gets a little joy out of killing

I wouldn't say that Kirk "enjoyed" destroying the BoP. Chang was beating the hell out of the Enterprise and they had no choice but to destroy it or be destroyed.

You may have not noticed this but Chang stopped firing after the Enterprise hit it with the one torpedo (which made it look like it was a direct hit on the bridge) THEN Excelsior and Enterprise blasted him to hell.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Hmmmm. As much as NuKirk and NuSpock enjoyed killing Nero and his crew, it's possible that the Abramsverse may be evolving into another version of the Mirror universe. Kirk and Spock were both pretty ruthless in the MU. Even NuSulu had a little smirk on his face when they destroyed the Narada. I can see the Mirror universe implications here. Maybe that's what they were going for. To see who would notice?

Undiscovered Country. Racist Kirk enjoying destoying a defenseless BOP, McCoy happy to build a torpedo to destroy it, etc.

They're human. Even Picard gets a little joy out of killing

Undiscovered Country. Racist Kirk enjoying destoying a defenseless BOP, McCoy happy to build a torpedo to destroy it, etc.

They're human. Even Picard gets a little joy out of killing

I wouldn't say that Kirk "enjoyed" destroying the BoP. Chang was beating the hell out of the Enterprise and they had no choice but to destroy it or be destroyed.

You may have not noticed this but Chang stopped firing after the Enterprise hit it with the one torpedo (which made it look like it was a direct hit on the bridge) THEN Excelsior and Enterprise blasted him to hell.

Yep. I've seen TUC a million times. It's my favorite Star Trek movie, ever. Chang stopped firing because he was totally aghast that they could figure out a way to locate his seemingly invisible ship. And Kirk and Sulu couldn't take any chances that the BoP was still functional. Until it was neutralized, it was still a threat. And, since that particular BoP was, according to Valeris, the only one of its kind in existence that could fire while cloaked, it was logical to destroy it so that the Klingons would have to start from scratch again to build another one.

 

[JarodRussell]

Sulu said "Target that explosion and fire."

They didn't know where the BoP had been hit. It could have been fully functional for all they knew. So they kept firing at it until it clearly was no threat anymore.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Hmmmm. As much as NuKirk and NuSpock enjoyed killing Nero and his crew, it's possible that the Abramsverse may be evolving into another version of the Mirror universe. Kirk and Spock were both pretty ruthless in the MU. Even NuSulu had a little smirk on his face when they destroyed the Narada. I can see the Mirror universe implications here. Maybe that's what they were going for. To see who would notice?

Undiscovered Country. Racist Kirk enjoying destoying a defenseless BOP, McCoy happy to build a torpedo to destroy it, etc.

They're human. Even Picard gets a little joy out of killing

I wouldn't say that Kirk "enjoyed" destroying the BoP. Chang was beating the hell out of the Enterprise and they had no choice but to destroy it or be destroyed.

You may have not noticed this but Chang stopped firing after the Enterprise hit it with the one torpedo (which made it look like it was a direct hit on the bridge) THEN Excelsior and Enterprise blasted him to hell.

Yep. I've seen TUC a million times. It's my favorite Star Trek movie, ever. Chang stopped firing because he was totally aghast that they could figure out a way to locate his seemingly invisible ship. And Kirk and Sulu couldn't take any chances that the BoP was still functional. Until it was neutralized, it was still a threat.

The same could be said about the Narada, considering that for a compromised vessle it looked like it was just stuck in the black hole and really didn't start to come apart until the Enterprise blasted it.