Section 31--Let's try and settle this!

[StarryEyed]

We're not talking about preemption here. The Dominion was actively trying to wipe out the races of the Federation. Did you miss the part about Weyoun casually speaking of eradicating Earth's population? They subjugated people who would submit and wiped out people who would not.

I am staunchly anti-death penalty (just petty revenge) but am 100% behind killing in self defense. If Osama Bin Laden were captured today, I would oppose executing him. If I could travel back in time to stop him from planning the 9-11 attacks, I would snuff him out without the tiniest regret. I see genocide in the same vein. I would never condone it for non self-defense reasons but if some entire group is actively trying to kill me, I'd do em in an instant.

 

[blackzoid]

Hi All
First time poster here.

Its been only briefly mentioned here by Withers, but it is the most important aspect of Section 31's actions:

ACTUAL SHOW TIMELINE

1: Odo was infected by Section 31 in the middle of season 4 when he was at Starfleet Headquarters.
2: At that time the Dominion, had NOT invaded the Alpha Quadrant by military means and had contended it self with sending infiltrators into the empires there.
3: The Dominion had told the Federation directly at the end of Season 2 to stay out of the Gamma Quadrant, but the Federation has ignored that.
4: The Dominion has recently endured an attack itself on the Founder's planet.

Now then, at this point in time, Section 31 infects Odo with the intent of killing the entire race of Changelings.
That is morally inexcusable. Why?
They had alternatives:

1: They could have mined the wormhole, before the Dominion invades. (remember its season 4 here)
2: They could have collapsed the wormhole. (It was the changeling impersonating Bashier who somehow "strengthened" the wormhole against collapseable attempts)

BTW, I have problems with Starfleet not trying one of these alternatives as well, but we are talking about Section 31 here

Genocide is perhaps morally justifable in the case where you are under attack yourself but in season 4 Section 31 pre-emptively initiated genocide when there were ALTERNATIVES!
Its as if they wanted to take out the Founders so that they could claim Gamma Quadrant space, not protect the Federation by the easiest way possible.

I have no problem with a black-ops operation if there are no alternatives around. But the Federation had them and Section 31 ignored them.
Thats wrong and they should be arrested for genocide. If it was Season 6 and they did it, you could perhaps defend Section 31. Not season 4 however. Thats evil. Period. It cannot be defended.

 

[StarryEyed]

^ Assuming they intended the virus as a preemptive strike rather than as leverage. All they had to do is introduce the cure to one founder and the whole thing could be reversed through the link.

Interesting, your point about the attempted genocide by the Romulan/Cardassian fleet. Rather than specifically target either of those races, they allied themselves with one and signed a non-aggression pact with the other. Obviously, they aren't so shocked or enraged by attempted genocide. In light of their blind hatred and distrust of solids, perhaps they fully expect it.

 

[Withers]

We're not talking about preemption here. The Dominion was actively trying to wipe out the races of the Federation. Did you miss the part about Weyoun casually speaking of eradicating Earth's population? They subjugated people who would submit and wiped out people who would not.

Wiping out the population on Earth would hardly eliminate every human being in the 24th century. If Weyoun had said "Wiping out humanity is the only way" you'd have a point. He was directing his hypothetical scenario of maintaining control of the Federation in the direction of taking out Federation headquarters and all of its leaders. While that's a horrible thing and by no means acceptable it isn't genocide.

All of that is beside the point. The war had already begun by that point. The Federation had already made first strike long before that suggestion had ever been made.

I have no problem with a black-ops operation if there are no alternatives around. But the Federation had them and Section 31 ignored them.
Thats wrong and they should be arrested for genocide. If it was Season 6 and they did it, you could perhaps defend Section 31. Not season 4 however. Thats evil. Period. It cannot be defended.

Based on the time line of events this is how I feel about and I don't really see another justifiable way of looking at it (though I find the idea of genocide in self defense to be a dubious one- the Federation could have come up with a better way if given the chance, but they weren't.)

Regardless of whether or not the Founders expect it, regardless of whether or not they participate in it themselves, and regardless of whether or not it was preemptive or proactive genocide is wrong.

-Withers-​

 

[Penta]

I think we've beaten the Founder Genocide issue to death, personally.

Rush, a few pages back, brought up that it might be more interesting is to look at the concept of S31 alone, presumably without the genocide stuff.

I'm going to ask that question again:

Set aside, difficult though it may be, the Founder Genocide Plot.

Section 31: How do you think it would work?

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Agreed--but one point I'd like to make:

Withers, you claimed that hostilities had not broken out between the Founders and the UFP as of Season 4.

To the contrary. I refer you to the Jem'Hadar destroying the Odyssey at the end of season 2, first of all.

Second, the general attitude of "this side of the wormhole is OUR territoty"--when it was very clear that, while the Dominon was the MAJOR power in the Gamma Quadrant, much of the territory on that side was NOT alligned with them. The UFP had every right to continue exploring the neutral space.

But even that aside--third, in the last episode of season 3, a Founder saboteur tried to instigate a war between the UFP and the Tzenkethi.

Fourth, it is clear that the Founders were responsible for sabotaging the Klingon-Federation alliance, via the Martok-Changeling. (Yes, I know this wasn't discovered until after the virus was allegedly created--but nonetheless--)

This is all evidence that, yes, the Founders were at war with the Federation--even though we weren't at war with them.

 

[Withers]

This is all evidence that, yes, the Founders were at war with the Federation--even though we weren't at war with them.

This is the last thing I'll bring up about the genocide; we were at war with them whether it was the Federation or 31. The Changeling Virus couldn't have been whipped up over night. The Founders were the best genetic engineers the Federation had ever come across. So to produce a virus the Founders themselves couldn't cure would have taken a long time. Just consider how little Bashir knew about Odo's physiology when Odo was the only known Changeling. 31 had to have been working on that virus for a while before giving it to Odo setting the time line back even further.

So, in my head, we were at war with them just as soon as they were at war with us. And all of those things they did, destroying the Odyssey, declaring the Gamma Quadrant theirs and eliminating New Bajor, attempting to start a war with the Tzenkethi, disrupting the Klingon/Federation Alliance... all of that was the work of bad guys. I'm not disputing that in the slightest. The Founders were bad guys. That doesn't make killing them all justified.


I think, because genocide is so tangible though, there's an organization that is very much a part of Starfleet that may well be considerably more dangerous and that's Temporal Investigations/USS Relativity/Daniels. Outside of Captain Braxton they seem to have a handle on wielding a lot of power... and they function (when it's necessary I guess). So if that kind of thing can exist within Starfleet itself and be acknowledged, surely there is a way for 31 to do something similar.

-Withers-​

 

[StarryEyed]

The Founders were the best genetic engineers the Federation had ever come across. So to produce a virus the Founders themselves couldn't cure would have taken a long time.

That is actually a plot hole because coming up with the virus should not have been difficult and time-consuming - it should have been impossible.

Maybe one of the 100 was a Section 31 spy...

 

[Rush Limborg]

^ Woah. I must admit, in my wildest dreams, I woun't have imagined that. Fascinating theory--and it would be most interesting...if it were revealed that it were true....

 

[PorthosShadow]

^ Woah. I must admit, in my wildest dreams, I woun't have imagined that. Fascinating theory--and it would be most interesting...if it were revealed that it were true....

Indeed, thats something I never considered but I guess I always assumed that S31 had far more resources than anyone. Its either that or they were simply able to by pass moral and ethical guidelines when developing a biological weapon. However, the idea of another changling helping would have been very interesting.

 

[StarryEyed]

Well as Withers pointed out, the Founders were probably the best genetic engineers the Federation had ever encountered. That was their shtick. I would bet good money that they genetically engineered themselves as well as the Vorta and the Jem Hadar. The female founder told Odo that they were once solid. It just doesn't seem possible that Section 31 could win on that battlefield - unless they had an operative in the Link.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Or the Link had an operative in S31...

 

[Penta]

Yeah, but if the Link had someone in S31, why would they allow the virus project to go forward?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Maybe the Link planned the whole thing in advance - as a way to get Section 31 out into the open. Gave them the virus and the cure, knowing that the use of the virus would make the Federation look bad and give the Dominion an excuse to step up the war.

 

[PorthosShadow]

Well as Withers pointed out, the Founders were probably the best genetic engineers the Federation had ever encountered. That was their shtick. I would bet good money that they genetically engineered themselves as well as the Vorta and the Jem Hadar. The female founder told Odo that they were once solid. It just doesn't seem possible that Section 31 could win on that battlefield - unless they had an operative in the Link.

I don't think the female shapeshifter was telling Odo they had once been solid but in fact changlings had been less xenophobic and had more open to exploring like solids. However, I have to say that idea of them once being solid and then changing them selves into shapeshifters via genetic engineering is a fancinating idea.

Also, that would explain her line about them being beaten and hunted. Unless that was a less litteral turn of phrase then being solid would definately explain that away, very interesting. I do have to wonder if the writers of DS9 had something like them being solid in mind.

 

[Penta]

Maybe the Link planned the whole thing in advance - as a way to get Section 31 out into the open. Gave them the virus and the cure, knowing that the use of the virus would make the Federation look bad and give the Dominion an excuse to step up the war.

Was it ever established that the average person knew about S31's existence by the time of WYLB?

 

[StarryEyed]

Well as Withers pointed out, the Founders were probably the best genetic engineers the Federation had ever encountered. That was their shtick. I would bet good money that they genetically engineered themselves as well as the Vorta and the Jem Hadar. The female founder told Odo that they were once solid. It just doesn't seem possible that Section 31 could win on that battlefield - unless they had an operative in the Link.

I don't think the female shapeshifter was telling Odo they had once been solid but in fact changlings had been less xenophobic and had more open to exploring like solids. However, I have to say that idea of them once being solid and then changing them selves into shapeshifters via genetic engineering is a fancinating idea.

You may be right. I guess I was parsing her comments through my own, personal filter. I always found the idea of shape-shifters to be unbelievable - especially when they can morph between forms of obviously different masses. I reasoned that the Founders are the product of self-directed evolution - deliberate engineering. It's the only way I can suspend disbelief and accept them.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Well as Withers pointed out, the Founders were probably the best genetic engineers the Federation had ever encountered. That was their shtick. I would bet good money that they genetically engineered themselves as well as the Vorta and the Jem Hadar. The female founder told Odo that they were once solid. It just doesn't seem possible that Section 31 could win on that battlefield - unless they had an operative in the Link.

I don't think the female shapeshifter was telling Odo they had once been solid but in fact changlings had been less xenophobic and had more open to exploring like solids. However, I have to say that idea of them once being solid and then changing them selves into shapeshifters via genetic engineering is a fancinating idea.

You may be right. I guess I was parsing her comments through my own, personal filter. I always found the idea of shape-shifters to be unbelievable - especially when they can morph between forms of obviously different masses. I reasoned that the Founders are the product of self-directed evolution - deliberate engineering. It's the only way I can suspend disbelief and accept them.

Yet this is the same universe with beings that are basically balls of energy so suspend disbelief is kind of built into the Star Trek universe.

 

[StarryEyed]

I don't think the female shapeshifter was telling Odo they had once been solid but in fact changlings had been less xenophobic and had more open to exploring like solids. However, I have to say that idea of them once being solid and then changing them selves into shapeshifters via genetic engineering is a fancinating idea.

You may be right. I guess I was parsing her comments through my own, personal filter. I always found the idea of shape-shifters to be unbelievable - especially when they can morph between forms of obviously different masses. I reasoned that the Founders are the product of self-directed evolution - deliberate engineering. It's the only way I can suspend disbelief and accept them.

Yet this is the same universe with beings that are basically balls of energy so suspend disbelief is kind of built into the Star Trek universe.

Suspension of disbelief is a personal thing. I totally disagree with you if you are trying to say that if you accept one improbable thing, you should accept all of them. They are not all equal. Your example sounds like the Organians in TOS Errand of Mercy. It's interesting that you picked that example because they clearly stated that they were once corporeal beings who evolved beyond the need for physical bodies. Just as with my take on the Founders, the Organians started off just as we did.

There is plenty about Star Trek I do not accept. For example, none of the mirror-universe episodes exist as far as I am concerned. I'm not going to elaborate on why I cannot accept them because I don't want to hijack this thread but I think it's wrong to expect everyone who accepts the Trekverse as a whole to accept every single part of it.

 

[Delta1]

Maybe the Link planned the whole thing in advance - as a way to get Section 31 out into the open. Gave them the virus and the cure, knowing that the use of the virus would make the Federation look bad and give the Dominion an excuse to step up the war.

Was it ever established that the average person knew about S31's existence by the time of WYLB?

We don't know much about the average person in Star Trek, but it seemed the average officer or NCO of DS9 knew about it, as well as anyone who would listen to Sisko or Bashir. That might have been the intention of Sloan's ham-handed "recruitment" effort. With the virus deployed, the 31 flag had outworn its usefulness. A brilliant physician was selected to "out" 31 and "cure" the virus, proving that the Federation's bona fides at the negotiating table. Of course, the physician was too brilliant and managed to cure the virus ahead of schedule, killing a 31 officer in the process. But Sloan's death makes the coverup even more effective, so maybe that was in the plan all along...?