Section 31--Let's try and settle this!

[Withers]

Either way you look at it, whether you think it was a bargain for going back to the Founders or whether you think it was because Odo was finally able to help her see the light (of which I do think there is evidence) the virus and thus Section 31's actions had no impact on ending the war and that is the point.

In further thinking on the idea of Section 31 I tried to play Devils Advocate.


What if Sisko wasn't able to prevent the Dominion Reinforcements from coming through the wormhole or the plot to trick the Romulans into the war had been exposed, causing them to join the Dominion? If the Federation was on the ropes, on the verge of outright annihilation, would the idea of the virus (or an action equally contrary to the ideals of the Federation) be excused in light of victory or even favored retrospectively as the shoulda-woulda-coulda 'option of last resort?'


The answer, unfortunately, is yes. If Section 31's illegal activities saved the Federation from destruction one of two adages would be used to justify said behaviors; 'the ends justify the means' and/or 'desperate times call for desperate measures.' Historically speaking those actions, while viewed as “wrong,” would ultimately be excused. A historical pardon, however, doesn't make it right and those excuses shouldn't be used as justification for abandoning the ideals the civilization everyone was fighting to save was based upon. Existence might be assured but the Federation, as it was, would have died along with whatever it was they destroyed in order to do so.


Starfleet has a knack for 'finding a way' to accomplish things. When faced with a dilemma one can count on the fact that Starfleet will find a way. Having a list of things they will never do (like commit a genocide) only means they'll have to work harder to come up with a solution. But they will come up with a solution under those circumstances. If there's some... “easy button” clause, of course everyone would have that in the back of their minds and so alternatives that may or may not work wouldn't be as fleshed out as they otherwise would have been. Limitations breed creative thinking.


There has to be a way of coexisting in the Universe with adversaries. By turning, (immediately based on the time period Odo was infected), to wiping out potential foes Section 31 robs Starfleet of the chance to use their abilities to figure out how.


No matter how I shake it Section 31 just isn't a good idea. There's no evidence that organization ever accomplished anything but tarnishing the image of humanity and further exemplifying the behavior that leads to greater hostility between powers in contrast to the primary mission of the Federation which is cooperation through diplomacy. Even if they had a tangible accomplishment somewhere along the lines condoning their methods would make those doing so accessories to the fact. Resorting to said methods robs the Federation of the experience of learning to better deal and coexist with hostile forces in the Universe.


The way I see it the only way something like Section 31 can exist under the Federation as we know it is just as it does; illegally.

But--if that code results in the deaths of those lives a government is entrusted to protect--deaths which could have been prevented by "compromise"...should that moral code not be changed?

If the Federation were constantly getting its ass kicked because of its refusal to “play dirty” I'd say a review of the policies under which it operated was in order. That, however, is not the case. There's no evidence that the “compromises” 31 was willing to make actually helped anything. If anything the evidence is to the contrary- that it in fact made the situation more precarious than it ever needed to be. Starfleet's “code” was the source of their strength not of their weakness. Ultimately cooperation won the war against the Dominion. I think that is an important thing to remember when one is talking about whether or not the 'Starfleet way' was a hindrance to victory.

-Withers-​

 

[Rush Limborg]

I think, then, it's highly possible that we have only seen the "bad" of Section 31. But, indeed, in "Inquisition", we see Sloan assert that, "If you knew how many lives we've saved...I think you'll agree that the ends do justify the means."

Also, in "Inter Arna..." I actually understand why 31 would want Cretak out of the picture. Ross hinted at it--but a dramatic example of the stated reason was in "Shadows and Symbols".

Cretak proved herself more concerned with advancing Romulan "interests" than with maintaining relations with Bajor--when she put Romulan weapons in the system.

I totally sympathize with Ross in his complete disdain for her, because of this. And to be frank, I am amazed that Bashir dared to assert that "she believed in the alliance...she was on our side."

Of course...while Kira and Ross were dealing with Cretak, Bashir was off with Worf on that dedication to Jadzia....

The point it, in that case at lease, one could say Sloan, Ross, and Koval did the right thing. Also...there's something to be said about the fact that the head of the Tal Shiar actually works for Section 31, and therefore regularly reports information that would've taken S.I. much longer to uncover.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

. Also...there's something to be said about the fact that the head of the Tal Shiar actually works for Section 31, and therefore regularly reports information that would've taken S.I. much longer to uncover.

Yeah that Section 31 is too stupid to realize Koval is probably using them for his own benefit until it's better for he to screw them over royally, because only a complete and utter idiot would trust someone who would sell out his own people.

FYI Koval could also get bumped off by an ambitious underling looking to get his job which would leave S31 with NOTHING.

 

[Withers]

I think, then, it's highly possible that we have only seen the "bad" of Section 31. But, indeed, in "Inquisition", we see Sloan assert that, "If you knew how many lives we've saved...I think you'll agree that the ends do justify the means."

I'm not going to just take Luther Sloan's word for it. If they botched everything as much as they did the Changeling Virus extravaganza they likely wouldn't continue to exist as an organization. So, yeah, we probably have only seen the bad side of 31. They would have to have an amazing plethora of unseen "good acts" to make up for that bad side and I've seen no evidence of that save for the words of a sociopath.

-Withers-​

 

[muzzleflash]

Surprised how many people voted for the last option.

What's the point of having values if there is no society to uphold them?

 

[Rush Limborg]

. Also...there's something to be said about the fact that the head of the Tal Shiar actually works for Section 31, and therefore regularly reports information that would've taken S.I. much longer to uncover.

Yeah that Section 31 is too stupid to realize Koval is probably using them for his own benefit until it's better for he to screw them over royally, because only a complete and utter idiot would trust someone who would sell out his own people.

Well, considering how one of 31's biggest characteristics is supposed to be its paranoia...I'd think they'd plan for that.

FYI Koval could also get bumped off by an ambitious underling looking to get his job which would leave S31 with NOTHING.

Oh, I'd think they'd plan for that possibility. After all...they did know he had a terminal illness. He was going to die anyway.

BTW...according to Memory Beta, that is precicely what happened.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

. Also...there's something to be said about the fact that the head of the Tal Shiar actually works for Section 31, and therefore regularly reports information that would've taken S.I. much longer to uncover.

Yeah that Section 31 is too stupid to realize Koval is probably using them for his own benefit until it's better for he to screw them over royally, because only a complete and utter idiot would trust someone who would sell out his own people.

FYI Koval could also get bumped off by an ambitious underling looking to get his job which would leave S31 with NOTHING.

I thought Koval wasn't "really" working for S31 at all? Meaning, he was intentionally feeding them false information?

 

[Kegg]

The Section 31 arc was written with a carefully loaded gun; there is a right answer and a wrong answer, but the arc was willing to toy with the idea of ambiguity within the framework of that morality.

Basically, it's an indictment of covert ops type goings on which is willing to engage in a degree of subtelty rather than beat the audience over the head with the idea. What Section 31 does is pretty despicable, but it's also true there aren't always easy answers to that.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

What's the point of having values if there is no society to uphold them?

Better to be dead with honor than alive without it.

 

[Withers]

Better to be dead with honor than alive without it.

While I tend to agree Starfleet was never in such a situation where it was actually faced with complete destruction if it didn't compromise to the tune of Section 31 doing something unspeakably horrible. Section 31 just did that anyway... without the necessity.

-Withers-​

 

[StarryEyed]

I voted, "Yes, to a point." That vote is based on the Section 31 we saw on screen - not the reckless organization in the novels.

I have one take on Section 31 that seems to be unique: I believe they are an organization which would go to every length to avoid heavy-handed action. It believe that is so on simple, logical grounds:

The more often you play with fire, the more likely you are to get burned. And Section 31 cannot afford to get burned. Their top priority is the safety of the Federation. In their eyes, little would jeopardize that safety more than the demise of Section 31. For that reason, they would tread as lightly as possible, only engaging in heavy-handed action like the Changeling virus when they felt that the consequences of inaction was more dangerous for the Federation than the loss of the organization would be.

Also, we have no clue as to the hierarchy of Section 31. We know that powerful people like Admiral Ross are aware of it. We can also be pretty sure that those powerful people are only going to go so far. This puts a practical limit on what the organization can actually do. And there are certain to be checks and balances within Section 31.

All this assumes that Section 31 is really what Sloan said it was: a selfless group of extraordinary people who care deeply about the safety of the Federation. I'm inclined to believe they are because an amoral group of corruptible people operating within the Federation WILL get exposed and taken down.

 

[Withers]

they would tread as lightly as possible, only engaging in heavy-handed action like the Changeling virus when they felt that the consequences of inaction was more dangerous for the Federation than the loss of the organization would be.

They infected Odo with the changeling virus pretty early on. For an organization that 'treads lightly' there was very little 'wait and see' involved in their actions. They almost immediately went for the jugular which is suggestive an organization with a hair trigger.

Also, we have no clue as to the hierarchy of Section 31. We know that powerful people like Admiral Ross are aware of it. We can also be pretty sure that those powerful people are only going to go so far. This puts a practical limit on what the organization can actually do. And there are certain to be checks and balances within Section 31.

Ross wasn't an agent of Section 31 but even he went to an extreme- as a Starfleet Admiral, that made Bashir uncomfortable. He had a limit that went 'beyond' what it should have. So what makes you think actual operatives, who weren't accountable to the law, would have a more reserved policy when taking action? "There are certain to be checks and balances within Section 31?" According to what? Here is an organization that has self declared autonomy. Checks and balances don't work if there isn't something to check and balance you aside yourself.

All this assumes that Section 31 is really what Sloan said it was: a selfless group of extraordinary people who care deeply about the safety of the Federation.

It assumes you believe Luther Sloan and I don't. If the members of 31 are so selfless and so dedicated to the protection of the Federation they should join Starfleet or run for office- not commit acts behind closed doors that contradict the ideals upon which their precious Federation was founded.

I'm inclined to believe they are because an amoral group of corruptible people operating within the Federation WILL get exposed and taken down.

Everybody keep their fingers crossed that it happens before they decide the Klingons or the Romulans or the Cardassians don't deserve to exist anymore.

-Withers-​

 

[StarryEyed]

Odo was infected with the virus at a time when it was very clear that the Dominion was a hostile power with superior numbers and technology and a clear ambition against the Alpha Quadrant. Their action was prudent. Lets also not forget that the virus could have been neutralized at any time; it was not irreversible.

 

[Rush Limborg]

I voted, "Yes, to a point." That vote is based on the Section 31 we saw on screen - not the reckless organization in the novels.

Agreed. Frankly, their stint in Cloak (the Kirk novel) in particular was extremely cringe-worthy. I was hooked until the big reveal at the end, when Spock discovers the instability of the molecule--and yet somehow 31 didn't even consider that possibility.

Do the authors really expect us to believe that 31 would be so stupid as to experiment with an Omega molecule--without covering ALL the bases?

I have one take on Section 31 that seems to be unique: I believe they are an organization which would go to every length to avoid heavy-handed action. I believe that is so on simple, logical grounds:

The more often you play with fire, the more likely you are to get burned. And Section 31 cannot afford to get burned. Their top priority is the safety of the Federation. In their eyes, little would jeopardize that safety more than the demise of Section 31. For that reason, they would tread as lightly as possible, only engaging in heavy-handed action like the Changeling virus when they felt that the consequences of inaction was more dangerous for the Federation than the loss of the organization would be.

Also, we have no clue as to the hierarchy of Section 31. We know that powerful people like Admiral Ross are aware of it. We can also be pretty sure that those powerful people are only going to go so far. This puts a practical limit on what the organization can actually do. And there are certain to be checks and balances within Section 31.

All this assumes that Section 31 is really what Sloan said it was: a selfless group of extraordinary people who care deeply about the safety of the Federation. I'm inclined to believe they are because an amoral group of corruptible people operating within the Federation WILL get exposed and taken down.

(nods) I would say, that is a logical analysis.

Personally, I'm toying with the idea that there are some Directors in 31 who are corrupt, relatively incompetent fools, while others (such as Zeitsev, and Sloan) are extremely efficient, and intelligent. It supports the idea of a cell-like orginization.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Odo was infected with the virus at a time when it was very clear that the Dominion was a hostile power with superior numbers and technology and a clear ambition against the Alpha Quadrant. Their action was prudent. Lets also not forget that the virus could have been neutralized at any time; it was not irreversible.

Hmm. To be fair, though, the reversal of the virus would have required a curing of all infected Founders, which would have taken some time.

Unless...of course, it was possible that 31 intended to have the cure used as a bargaining chip, to encourage the Founders to surrender...?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Section 31 cannot afford to get burned. Their top priority is the safety of the Federation.

So they say. But why trust them?

Any organization that is not *accountable* to a government cannot logically have the safety *of* that government as their priority. If an organization (or, for that matter, a person) can do whatever it wants, it will.

Remember, the leaders of Section 31 did not have to justify their actions to anyone. They could, in the most literal sense, do whatever they wanted. They didn't face any kind of oversight or restriction. That alone makes them unjustifiable and untrustworthy.

 

[Penta]

Remember, the leaders of Section 31 did not have to justify their actions to anyone. They could, in the most literal sense, do whatever they wanted. They didn't face any kind of oversight or restriction. That alone makes them unjustifiable and untrustworthy.

You're so sure about that.

What about the possibility Sloan was lying about it, that S31 really does have oversight - oversight that's morally lax?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ But why *would* Sloan lie about that? If Section 31 did have a legitimate structure and leadership that was accountable to the Federation at large, surely he would have said so, since Bashir would have been more likely to join if that had been the case.

 

[StarryEyed]

Section 31 cannot afford to get burned. Their top priority is the safety of the Federation.

So they say. But why trust them?

Any organization that is not *accountable* to a government cannot logically have the safety *of* that government as their priority. If an organization (or, for that matter, a person) can do whatever it wants, it will.

Remember, the leaders of Section 31 did not have to justify their actions to anyone. They could, in the most literal sense, do whatever they wanted. They didn't face any kind of oversight or restriction. That alone makes them unjustifiable and untrustworthy.

As I said in my analysis, I don't think they had that kind of unlimited power in practice. It's a matter of practicality. You can't operate in an organization like the Federation for long if you continually disregard its principles - especially if you do so for personal power or glory instead of the noble purpose of protecting the Federation. If you do that, you WILL be exposed and burned. It's only a matter of time.

If you accept Enterprise as cannon, it really does go all the way back to the founding of the Federation. I just can't accept that an evil Section 31 could have possibly survived all that time. I CAN accept the survival of a prudent organization that does far more listening than acting, acting only when it feels there is no alternative and with the minimum amount and degree of illegal activity to get the job done. I don't see how it could survive otherwise.

I do believe their action against the founders was warranted. This was a power that possessed superior technology, superior resources, had managed to dominate a quadrant for 10,000 years and had clearly-stated hostile intentions. They were a grave and imminent threat.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Interesting that you should bring up Enterprise. Back then, it could be argued that Section 31 actually was a legitimate organization. But just because it might have been noble then, obviously it wasn't anymore by the time we saw it in DS9.

To put it another way: Why should any Federation citizen (if they had been aware of S31's existence) be sure that S31 wouldn't come after them next? Who decides what is a threat and what is not? Section 31 is no better than the Tal Shiar or Obsidian Order. Indeed, it's worse, since *nobody* knows about it. The average citizen of the Federation is unaware that they could be snatched away and eliminated in the dead of night if S31 deems them a threat. In this way, the Federation is a ruthless police state and doesn't even know it.

(You want to know how Section 31 could have survived all this time? THAT's how.)