Section 31--Let's try and settle this!

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Sloan *might* have thought that there were some things that even Section 31 wouldn't do, but the point is, only Section 31 got to decide what those things were. That's one of the most dangerous things about their existence. They could, in the most literal sense, do whatever they wanted.

You want to talk about the greater good? The greater good is exactly that: GOOD. The striving to be better than base human nature. The overcoming of chaos with order. The replacement of the mob with civilization. One step higher on the moral ladder. As Kirk once said - it's deciding we won't kill today.

 

[Withers]

I have to give Thirty-One hearty praise for developing the strategy brought the Dominion to the negotiating table. Billions of lives could have been unnecessarily lost if not for Thirty-One's cleverness and moral courage.

There will always be people who think this way and that is why Star Trek's version of the future should be termed Science Fantasy because 'fiction' isn't a strong enough word.

The point, however, is that the genocide of the Founders was completely unnecessary. The Federation won the war without it. The Female Changeling wasn't making tactical decisions or battle plans. The closest she came to that was bringing the Breen into the war. Beyond that she was just there to 'oversee' the war. As such her illness had little impact because she herself wasn't making a bunch of major decisions.

In fact if the war had drawn out any longer and she had died then the Federation reached Cardassia Prime The Jem'Hadar would have fought to the last man, prolonging the war and 'adding further darkness to a night already devoid of stars.' It wouldn't have been Section 31 out there fighting and dying (not that it ever was) but they would ultimately be responsible thought it would of course be impossible to hold them accountable.

If there were any Founders who were not hell-bent on conquering the galaxy, we didn't see them.

You only ever saw one. And, at the end, it was a changeling who was also almost done in by this suddenly-acceptable virus that saved everybody from having to fight the Dominion to the last man; his name was Odo.

-Withers-​

 

[Kai Winn]

i recall one episode where sisko stated "we are losing the peace", and war with the dominion was regarded as the only way out. the cardassians had just joined the dominion, and the romulans agreed to a non-aggression treaty.
did the dominion start the war? i'd challenge this opinion. anyway, the decision to murder the founders was conceived long before the war, even the delivery of the virus by odo took place before.
there was a solution to avoid the war, shut the wormhole. why wasn't it done? because the federation wanted to expand into the gamma quadrant, and challenge the dominion there.

"Absolutely--you MUST be willing to do whatever is neccesary to save lives, and achieve a greater good."

that's a stance taken up by those who believe to be entitled to make the decision who and what is good or evil.

 

[Kai Winn]

I like the invention of S31 because it means The Federation hasn't survived for several hundred years by pure chance or luck. Someone has been keeping an eye out for them and while an organization like S31 seemingly has no one to answer to it does seem as though they good Federation citizens.

peculiar reasoning. the dominion would not have survived for 10,000 years if it was an oppressive regime. nothing can resist the desire for freedom, don't you agree? quark stated in one episode during the dominion occupation of ds9 that the occupation of bajor by cardassia was far, far worse. the dominion also abided by its agreements, bajor wasn't attacked by them, the romulan empire wasn't. why the federation didn't seek a non-aggression treaty with the dominion i surmised in my previous post.
while the federation sends fully sentient beings to the slaughter, the life of an engineered vorta or jem hadar doesn't have the same unique value. apart from the cardassians who had an agenda of their own, i haven't seen the founders wasting a single life from any of the many worlds they dominate.

 

[Baconnaise]

I like the invention of S31 because it means The Federation hasn't survived for several hundred years by pure chance or luck. Someone has been keeping an eye out for them and while an organization like S31 seemingly has no one to answer to it does seem as though they good Federation citizens.

peculiar reasoning. the dominion would not have survived for 10,000 years if it was an oppressive regime. nothing can resist the desire for freedom, don't you agree? quark stated in one episode during the dominion occupation of ds9 that the occupation of bajor by cardassia was far, far worse. the dominion also abided by its agreements, bajor wasn't attacked by them, the romulan empire wasn't. why the federation didn't seek a non-aggression treaty with the dominion i surmised in my previous post.
while the federation sends fully sentient beings to the slaughter, the life of an engineered vorta or jem hadar doesn't have the same unique value. apart from the cardassians who had an agenda of their own, i haven't seen the founders wasting a single life from any of the many worlds they dominate.

Your opinion then is the dominion can't be oppressive and survive?

The examples given through the episodes seem to contradict that opinion.

-Changeling lifespan
-Genetically altered soldiers
-Genetically altered officers and polticians
-Frequent chain of command issues (alluded too mostly)
-Fear mongering ( dosai and the caruma or whatever they were called)
-Plagues for entire races and planets if they don't conform or simply bombing them out of existence
-Openly starting conflicts or other nefarious acts against other races
-Arrogance

All the pieces are there in the episodes and information. I don't quite know why someone wouldn't think they weren't oppressive as they clearly shown that they are. The Jem Hadar being created make the case even stronger.

 

[neozeks]

Genocide is almost unthinkable here on Earth, but in a galactic war, with entire worlds at stake, the calculus becomes much easier. In this case, I think the word "genocide" is a red herring.

The Changeling species is practically identical to the Founders of the Dominion. They're the executive, legislature, and military high command of the Dominion. If there were any Founders who were not hell-bent on conquering the galaxy, we didn't see them. The Founders, as a group, and AFAWK to the individual, were contributing to the Dominion war effort by the exercise of command. They were legitimate targets. The fact that Founders comprise their entire species is irrelevant. You don't grant protected status to legitimate targets because you're worried about their biological continuity.

It's not like we're talking about a culture of individuals with distinct opinions, limitless potential, and individual dignity anyway. The Link is a big puddle of goo with effectively one mind. Only their willingness to bud off temporary individuals and the absence of assimilation separates them from the Borg. As the Great Link, the Founders/Changelings were effectively an individual. A paranoid individual hell-bent on conquering the galaxy no matter how many billions it had to kill. S31 realized this while everyone else was worrying about blood tests and tula berry exports.

No, no, NO. The Great Link was NOT an 'individual'. I've just recently watched 'Broken Link' and the fact that there is great disagreement and debate in the Great Link (over what to do with Odo) is emphasised numerous times. Granted, it's obvious that 'hawks' are always in the majority - but that doesn't preclude there being less militant members of the Link. In the end, you simply can't know. Is it fair to potentially kill the Founders that were against the war? Isn't that colective punishment?

 

[Admiral Shran]

there was a solution to avoid the war, shut the wormhole. why wasn't it done?

The Federation and Bajor attempted to do just that, collaspe the enterance to the Wormhole. The Dominion actively kept them from doing it so that they could expand into the Alpha Quadrant.

As for whether Section 31 should exist, I'm very tempted to say yes, with hesitations.

When it was first introduced I was very much in favor of 31. We all know the saying that "Peaceful men sleep soundly because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Sisko even says that "It's easy to be a saint in paradise." However, the Federation simply cannot exist without an organization like Section 31 looking out for it's interests. If the entire galaxy was like the Federation, then there would be no need for 31. However, the rest of the galaxy isn't a paradise of high minded moral people. It's inhabited by some very villianous people. Someone needs to be willing to stand up to these people and deliver violence on them if it is necessary.

The Dominion clearly posed a danger that required Section 31. Dipolmacy didn't work with them. Military action didn't work with them, at least up until the time when the Romulans joined the war. Clearly, something else had to be done to ensure the security of the Federation against this threat.

Sun Tzu said "For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence." This is what Section 31 embodied for me. It dealt with threats in a way which ensured that the loss of life would be minimal.

If someone is hell-bent on killing you, try to have a rational, peaceful discussion with them on the merits of pacificism and see what happens. If I were a gambling man, I'd wager that you'd quickly be dead.

However, there MUST be a line which cannot be crossed, and genocide is that line, IMO. Once 31 tried to wipe out all the Founders, it lost at massive amount of my respect. Like has been said, it was both unnecessary and far too morally questionable. It was also now actively seeking to enhance the loss of live, not lessen it.

So, while I appreciate what Section 31 stands for, they're methods tend to leave a bitter taste in my mouth. So, I'm going to vote "Perhaps...but not fully. There is a line that must never, ever, be crossed--but up to that line, I can allow for shades of grey."

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

the rest of the galaxy isn't a paradise of high minded moral people. It's inhabited by some very villianous people. Someone needs to be willing to stand up to these people and deliver violence on them if it is necessary.

That's why we have Starfleet. That's the legal way to "deliver violence" against the Federation's enemies.

Everything the Federation is entitled to do against an enemy is encompassed within legitimate organizations. Want to spy on your enemies? Starfleet Intelligence. Negotiate with them? The diplomatic corps. Attack them? Starfleet. Black ops simply are not, and never will be, necessary.

The use of Section 31 makes the Federation *no better* than those enemies you mentioned.

 

[Penta]

So? The Federation's just another state.

You seem to think that the Federation is somehow intrinsically good by being the home of our protagonists.

That, to me, is just short of delusional.

The Federation is not good, it is not evil....It is a state.

You want to say my views are 'Anti-Trek'? I don't really care.

Frankly, DS9 represented when the rosy-colored blinders got yanked off Star Trek's eyeballs.

Whiich is something I cheer at.
---

For what it's worth, the way I look at it, Sloan would have to be lying a bit to Bashir re his description of S31. There's no way they could get the resources without people knowing of their existence, not in the quantity needed.

More likely, they're known about, but only to select persons - the Federation President not necessarily being one of them. Plausible deniability is important, after all.

How do they get their resources, then?

Front companies. Classified budget annexes. The usual.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Okay, folks. Here's some questions that I feel have to be brought up:

Withers, you say that if the genocide plan had succeeded, the Jem'Hadar would have fought to the death--and therefore, the plan would backfire, due to intense anger on the part of the enemy.

Frankly, I'm not entirely certain that would be the case.

First, I refer you to the episode, "The Ship", in which Sisko and Co. salvaged a Jam'Hadar attack ship. The Jem'Hadar rescue crew, upon failing to save the injured Founder, commited suicide. They did not inflict revenge on Sisko and the crew--they killed themselves. To be honest, I think the more probable outcome of the virus being successful would be...all the Jem'Hadar of the Dominion commiting suicide, in the same way.

Second...even if they were to stay alive, and fight to the death, as the F.C. bragged, still, as Sun Tzu said:

A government should not mobilize an army out of anger, military leaders should not provoke war out of wrath. Act when it is beneficial, desist when it is not.

And here, he warns of the danger of attacking out of anger:

If the general cannot overcome his anger and has his army swarm over the citadel, killing a third of his soldiers, and yet the citadel is not taken, this is a disaterous attack

In this case, the genetically-engineered super-loyalty to the Founders could well be the Jem'Hadar's undoing. Out of pure, violent rage over the deaths of the Founders, the Jem'Hadar disregard the voices of reason--the Vorta, assuming they are not deranged, as well--and make completely irrational, chaotic strike after strike. Without rational planning, without keeping the military forces able to view tactics dispassionately and objectively, a military will destroy itself, and collapse.


Now...Mr. Laser Beam, you brought up absolute standards of right and wrong. I strongly agree: integrity is absolutely essential for life--and a moral code, once chosen, must either be followed completely, or not at all. As The Philosopher Said:

There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other side is wrong, but the middle is always evil. The man who is wrong still retains some respect for the truth, if only by accepting the responsibility of choice.

But the man in the middle is the knave who blanks out the truth in order to pretend that no choice or values exist, who is willing to sit out the course of any battle, willing to cash in on the blood of the innocent or to crawl on his belly to the guilty, who dispenses "justice" by condemning both the robber and the robbed to jail, who solves conflicts by ordering the thinker and the fool to meet each other halfway.

In any compromise between food and poison, it is only death that can win. In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit. In that transfusion of blood which drains the good to feed the evil, the compromiser is the transmitting rubber tube.

Now...every moral code stems from certain moral premises--premises that are meant to bring about the most good possible, by the standard of that code.

But--if that code results in the deaths of those lives a government is entrusted to protect--deaths which could have been prevented by "compromise"...should that moral code not be changed?

Surely a moral code, held by the Federation, that holds life as sacred, and therefore recognizes the duty of government to preserve said life under its juristiction--and yet would allow the destroyers of life (in this case, the Founders) to continue to live, if by living, said destroyers would simply continue on their quest of distruction--

Surely such a code thus has a fatal flaw--a flaw which must be corrected, else the Federation collapsed at the hands of those destroyers which it was not willing to defend against at all costs?


Next--neozeks, you brought up the fact that the Link does, in fact, debate issues. Yet, it must also be brought up that eventually, The Link did eventually agree on Odo's sentance.

Suppose there were dissenters who disagree with the war effort. If that were the case, by not making concious efforts to stop the war, are they not every bit as guilty as those who actively support the war?

If they were against the war--against the slaughtering of billions upon billions of solids, surely they would defect, create a Link of their own, and assist the solids in their defense against the invasion? Surely they would work to save those lives? Surely, by neglecting to do so, that makes their guilt even greater--as they have a moral opposition to the war, yet do not actively try to stop it?

So...why didn't they?


Now, some more words from Sun Tzu:

Making the armies able to take on opponents without being defeated is a matter of unorthodox and orthodox methods.

A military force has no constant formation, [as] water has no constant shape: the ability to gain victory by changing and adapting to the opponent is called genius.

Finally, I will let Jack Bauer have the last word:

For a combat soldier, the difference between success and failure is your ability to adapt to your enemy. The people that I deal with, they don't care about your rules. All they care about is a result. My job is to stop them from accomplishing their objectives. I simply adapted.

In answer to your question, am I above the law? No, sir. I am more than willing to be judged by the people you claim to represent. I will let them decide what price I should pay. But please do not sit there...and expect me to regret the decisions that I have made.

Because, sir, the truth is, I don't.

 

[Withers]

First, I refer you to the episode, "The Ship", in which Sisko and Co. salvaged a Jam'Hadar attack ship. The Jem'Hadar rescue crew, upon failing to save the injured Founder, commited suicide. They did not inflict revenge on Sisko and the crew--they killed themselves. To be honest, I think the more probable outcome of the virus being successful would be...all the Jem'Hadar of the Dominion commiting suicide, in the same way.

That was a different situation. The Jem'Hadar in that episode personally allowed the Founder to die. Jem'Hadar everywhere didn't commit suicide upon that happening, only the ones charged with protecting that specific Founder. It was also different in that there was something they (the Jem'Hadar) could do in that situation to protect the Founder. There wasn't anything they could do about the Changeling virus killing them. That wasn't their job. The Vorta were tasked with curing them. The Jem'Hadar were tasked only with fighting and protecting them from other soldiers. Not only that but most Jem'Hadar didn't even have contact with the Founders. How would all of them know it was true? Why would the Vorta tell them? Why would anybody?

In this case, the genetically-engineered super-loyalty to the Founders could well be the Jem'Hadar's undoing. Out of pure, violent rage over the deaths of the Founders, the Jem'Hadar disregard the voices of reason--the Vorta, assuming they are not deranged, as well--and make completely irrational, chaotic strike after strike. Without rational planning, without keeping the military forces able to view tactics dispassionately and objectively, a military will destroy itself, and collapse.

The war where they lined up and shot at one another in ships would likely be over maybe a month or two after the death of the Founders. I'll give you that much. But even Damar was afraid of what would happen if they were to ever lose control of the Jem'Hadar. They might be able to stop the ships (after a while) but to stop the Jem'Hadar station on planets throughout Cardassia and other occupied territories would only come to a conclusion after they died from lack of Ketracel White (and whose knows how long that would take.)


If Section 31 had succeeded in killing Odo the war would not have ended when it did. It's likely that it wouldn't have ended so bloodlessly either.

-Withers-​

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Well, first, recall that Odo was meant to be a carrier. It is almost a given that he was only infected with the full virus, and all its symptoms when he linked with the F.C. in the Season Six opening story arc.

And second...Of course it would not have ended bloodlessly. But we all must admit that the F.C. calling a surrender was an insane stroke of luck. Odo gambled that his compassion might be enough to convince her--but even he was not certain at all that he could succeed.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

^Well, first, recall that Odo was meant to be a carrier. It is almost a given that he was only infected with the full virus, and all its symptoms when he linked with the F.C. in the Season Six opening story arc.

And second...Of course it would not have ended bloodlessly. But we all must admit that the F.C. calling a surrender was an insane stroke of luck. Odo gambled that his compassion might be enough to convince her--but even he was not certain at all that he could succeed.

And the Jem Hadar killing themselves and not attacking the hell out of the Federation and it's allies is even more of a gamble and an idiotic one at that seeing as it is really really STUPID to use one instance as the way every Jem Hadar will act seeing as we've seen that their not so uniform.

 

[Withers]

^Well, first, recall that Odo was meant to be a carrier. It is almost a given that he was only infected with the full virus, and all its symptoms when he linked with the F.C. in the Season Six opening story arc.

I have a hard time believing Section 31 engineered a virus to kill Changelings but only meant for Odo to be the carrier of it and so altered it specifically not to kill him. That doesn't fit with their modus operandi in that he would have been seen as an unfortunate casualty of keeping the peace- they wouldn't have gone out of their way to keep him alive and risk the virus not being effective. If it were Starfleet I'd buy it. But since it's Section 31 (who is conducting a genocide) I hardly think they would be worried about killing the Chief of Security on DS9.

And second...Of course it would not have ended bloodlessly. But we all must admit that the F.C. calling a surrender was an insane stroke of luck. Odo gambled that his compassion might be enough to convince her--but even he was not certain at all that he could succeed.

Regardless, if they had killed Odo, that 'stroke of luck' would have been eliminated. Section 31 would have been responsible for every life lost after that point. And I just watched What You Leave Behind (completely coincidentally) and Odo was very certain he could succeed. There was absolutely no equivocation in his decision making. He knew he could convince the Female Changeling to have her forces stand down. It wasn't even curing her that convinced her to help. It was him as he didn't use curing her as a bargaining chip.

I don't see another way to look at this and I think it was written the way it was as an the indictment of Section 31's action that Starfleet itself never gave. It was a way of saying "Look, if their horrible plan had worked, the war wouldn't have ended. They would have prolonged what they were trying to end more quickly in the ultimate irony."

-Withers-​

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Well, first, recall that Odo was meant to be a carrier. It is almost a given that he was only infected with the full virus, and all its symptoms when he linked with the F.C. in the Season Six opening story arc.

And second...Of course it would not have ended bloodlessly. But we all must admit that the F.C. calling a surrender was an insane stroke of luck. Odo gambled that his compassion might be enough to convince her--but even he was not certain at all that he could succeed.

And the Jem Hadar killing themselves and not attacking the hell out of the Federation and it's allies is even more of a gamble and an idiotic one at that seeing as it is really really STUPID to use one instance as the way every Jem Hadar will act seeing as we've seen that their not so uniform.

Under normal circumstances, I would agree.

However...regardless of differences in personallities...regardless of disagreements in how Alphas and Gammas fell things should be run...in the end, what unifies them, above all else, is a supreme loyalty to the Founders--a worship of them.

If they fail to save them--as the entire Jem'Hadar force would have failed, had the changelings died from the virus--how, then, would they act?


Also...to be honest, Withers, I have a hard time believing they wouldn't try to alter the virus so that Odo would only be a carrier. Having a changeling on the side of the Allies is a particular advantage that one would be foolish to allow to go to waste.

 

[Withers]

Also...to be honest, Withers, I have a hard time believing they wouldn't try to alter the virus so that Odo would only be a carrier. Having a changeling on the side of the Allies is a particular advantage that one would be foolish to allow to go to waste.

That's contradicted by their behavior throughout the entire series. They obviously didn't value Odo. They tried to replace him twice and then they infected him a pathogen and used him as an instrument as I think he put it. That was about all the value 31/Starfleet ever really had for Odo aside shoring up Starfleet Headquarters against Changeling infiltration. They didn't care about Odo and they couldn't possibly have been planning on his remaining an ally after his people died and the plot was uncovered. Not to mention no one seemed that bothered when Odo came down with the disease. Starfleet Medical certainly didn't want to help and 31 actively tried to prevent. That's pretty odd behavior for people who had placed any value on Odo.

If they fail to save them--as the entire Jem'Hadar force would have failed, had the changelings died from the virus--how, then, would they act?

I think crossing your fingers and hoping they all kill themselves rather than anybody who happens to be near them is a silly gamble. Also, the two acts aren't mutually exclusive; fighting until everything there is to fight is dead and then turning on one another or outright committing suicide was as good as predicted on screen.

-Withers-​

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Well, first--if chaotic and vengeful "fighting to the death" truly were an effective means of combat--the Dominion would've used it. The Jem'Hadar WERE cannon fodder, as far as the Founders were concerned.

Second...I don't recall Section 31 ever trying to replace Odo. When did that happen?

 

[Rush Limborg]

On a side note...while I appreciate the debate on whether the genocide was practical or not--it's, again, only a small part of the entire issue.

I'm just saying--we should keep that in mind.

 

[Withers]

^Well, first--if chaotic and vengeful "fighting to the death" truly were an effective means of combat--the Dominion would've used it.

They did. The Jem'Hadar did Kamikaze runs no less than twice on screen. Not only was it successful both times it scared the hell out of the people they inflicted it on (namely the DS9 crew in the runabouts after the Odyssey blew up and Nog after the 5 squadrons of Attack Ships charged the Klingons.)

When Kira confronted the Female Changeling she said the war was over. The Female Changeling countered that she didn't think the Dominion would see it that way and that they would fight to the last man even without being ordered to do so. Effective or not it's still what they would have done. If Odo had died, and she died later, it still pans out that the war would have continued beyond where it did and it would be on Section 31's hands.

Having a changeling on the side of the Allies is a particular advantage that one would be foolish to allow to go to waste.

I assumed by 'allies' you were talking about Starfleet. Starfleet tried to replace Odo twice which to me suggests they were willing to allow that particular "advantage" to go to waste more readily than you apparently do. If you were talking about 31 then you can go with the pathogen argument; you're trying to say they infected him with a non-lethal version of the virus but that's still pretty short sighted if they really cared about Odo as an ally. They knew he'd have to link once to pass it on. What made them think that he'd link once and only once?

It just doesn't pan out in either direction. Section 31 didn't care about Odo and their act of genocide was, if nothing else, just as likely to prolong the war and make it bloodier as it was to end it more quickly. This unconscionable act, that could have easily cost the lives of thousands of more allied officers, can never be punished or tried in a court... because Section 31 has no masters and that is wrong.

-Withers-​

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Well, first--if chaotic and vengeful "fighting to the death" truly were an effective means of combat--the Dominion would've used it.

They did. The Jem'Hadar did Kamikaze runs no less than twice on screen. Not only was it successful both times it scared the hell out of the people they inflicted it on (namely the DS9 crew in the runabouts after the Odyssey blew up and Nog after the 5 squadrons of Attack Ships charged the Klingons.)

When Kira confronted the Female Changeling she said the war was over. The Female Changeling countered that she didn't think the Dominion would see it that way and that they would fight to the last man even without being ordered to do so. Effective or not it's still what they would have done. If Odo had died, and she died later, it still pans out that the war would have continued beyond where it did and it would be on Section 31's hands.

Nonetheless...the Allies would have won, regardless.

Having a changeling on the side of the Allies is a particular advantage that one would be foolish to allow to go to waste.

I assumed by 'allies' you were talking about Starfleet. Starfleet tried to replace Odo twice which to me suggests they were willing to allow that particular "advantage" to go to waste more readily than you apparently do. If you were talking about 31 then you can go with the pathogen argument; you're trying to say they infected him with a non-lethal version of the virus but that's still pretty short sighted if they really cared about Odo as an ally. They knew he'd have to link once to pass it on. What made them think that he'd link once and only once?

It just doesn't pan out in either direction. Section 31 didn't care about Odo and their act of genocide was, if nothing else, just as likely to prolong the war and make it bloodier as it was to end it more quickly. This unconscionable act, that could have easily cost the lives of thousands of more allied officers, can never be punished or tried in a court... because Section 31 has no masters and that is wrong.

-Withers-​

So...is that what you were talking about, when you claimed Section 31 tried to replace Odo twice?

Because I have to be honest: Starfleet's actions are not Section 31's responsability, per se.

Unless you would have us believe that 31 manipulated Starfleet to reassign Odo--of which there is no evidence whatsoever.