ST09 critics, why don't you like it?

[I-Am-Zim]

This is a claim of victimization and nothing more.

Maybe. But it's true nevertheless.

It's a choice.

I choose not to be a victim. You?

I never claimed to be a victim. I have been called many names by so-called fans such as youself simply because I don't share their opinions about NuTrek. It's simple. The NuTrekkies are in the majority while the OldTrekkies such as myself are in the minority. NuTrekkies are very aggressive in their defense of NuTrek. So much so that OldTrekkies become victims of their verbal assaults whether we want to or not. I try to be as civilized as possible in my commentary. And I've seen that this seems to be the case with most OldTrekkies. A lot of NuTrekkies, however, choose to berate and degrade us with their verbal abuse simply because we don't share their opinions. But it's like sticks and stones I suppose. I can let it roll off my back.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

It's a choice.

I choose not to be a victim. You?

Your name's not Triggerman on another board is it?

 

[Kirk1980]

Well, I wouldn't go so far as that, Zim.

I don't think not liking this movie is different from the rest of the fandom and their dislike of other branches of the Trek universe.

It is amusing, though, that defenders of this film (two, in particular) always bring up 'the majority' or 'how much money it's made' to try to invalidate how even our 'small pathetic minority' feel about the movie.

It's interesting. It's like the people who come to attack those who do not like it are insulted some people dare not like what has made Trek 'popular' and 'cool'. It's almost like they're afraid our dislike of the film will result in their Trek fandom no longer being as 'accepted' as it is now.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Well, I wouldn't go so far as that, Zim.

I don't think not liking this movie is different from the rest of the fandom and their dislike of other branches of the Trek universe.

It is amusing, though, that defenders of this film (two, in particular) always bring up 'the majority' or 'how much money it's made' to try to invalidate how even our 'small pathetic minority' feel about the movie.

It's interesting. It's like the people who come to attack those who do not like it are insulted some people dare not like what has made Trek 'popular' and 'cool'. It's almost like they're afraid our dislike of the film will result in their Trek fandom no longer being as 'accepted' as it is now.

I agree. Like I said, I'm just speaking from personal experience. Your last paragraph hit the nail right square on the head. The NuTrek fans apparently feel insulted by those of us who don't share their love for this new franchise. And in order to make themselves feel better, they insult and berate the rest of us.

I have been a member of another Trek discussion forum for almost two years and for the most part have enjoyed myself immensely having discussions and debates with other members. However, there are always going to be a couple of NuTrekkies who come in and act as if their opinions are the be-all and end-all of everyone's discussions. I came here because the forum I was on had gone stale. Nobody posted anymore. So I tried this one to see if there were any more ongoing discussions. Luckily, there were. Unfortunately, I'm running into the same issues, only more of them here. But it's still fun. So I'll stick around a bit longer to see how it all turnes out.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

so-called fans such as youself

Classy. Maybe I should adopt an aggrieved posture because of that. Or I can consider it the equivalent of being told that I have green hair.

It's a choice.

I choose not to be a victim. You?

Your name's not Triggerman on another board is it?

No. I don't hide. You?

 

[I-Am-Zim]

It's a choice.

I choose not to be a victim. You?

Your name's not Triggerman on another board is it?

No. I don't hide. You?

Nope. My username is the same on every board I go to. Reduces the confusion.

Sorry. Had to ask. I had a round on another board with a fellow named Triggerman. Some of your mannerisms and statements remind me of him, only not as extreme. No offense.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Nope. My username is the same on every board I go to. Reduces the confusion.

Well then.

To avoid confusion, I use the name my parents gave me.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Nope. My username is the same on every board I go to. Reduces the confusion.

Well then.

To avoid confusion, I use the name my parents gave me.

I don't blame ya. It is easier that way. I just like that sense of anonymity. Call me crazy like that.

 

[Shaw]

Here is the basic problem that some TOSers are having with the new version: for decades Trek fans have asserted a claim to Trek based on the premise that the people who own it need us in order for it to succeed.

Well, no they don't.

Or perhaps more accurately, most of us are happy with what they're doing and so are the members of the now greatly enlarged Trek audience, so the relative few - ten percent or less of traditional Trek fans - who call themselves Trek fans and object to the new direction have no leverage, none whatever, with which to insist that Paramount listen to them instead of serving the majority.

Fandom was like a club with passwords, secret handshakes etc, and the club is facing the problem of declining membership - not because people are no longer interested in the object of the club's focus, but because people no longer feel the need to come to the clubhouse in order to express and indulge that interest.

In short, old style Trek fandom is becoming obsolete.

This has to be the most enlightening post ever posted by you Dennis. Not that there is anything about the real world in it that matters, but it shows how you see things.

Dennis, it seems that Trek is a social endeavor for you... like a club or clique. You like to be in the in crowd, and more importantly, you like to go out of your way to torment people who you see as a minority. It is amazing to note that most of your posts reference that your opinions are shared by most or the majority (as if that matters).

I'd laugh if it wasn't so sad.

Dennis, most people who like Trek aren't doing it to gain in some social standing. In fact, generally the opposite is true. Liking Trek is the fastest way out of most social groups in the real world. And I would have thought that most people who like Trek had long ago moved past peer pressure (both being influenced by it or attempting to influence others with it).

I don't know about anyone else, but Trek isn't a social thing for me. I watch Trek alone. It is not a group activity. I don't require the validation of others to like what I like.

Also, I've never... ever, thought that any corporation was listening to my likes/wants. One of the only TV shows I watch is Numb3rs, which it looks like CBS is taking off the air even though it has good ratings. From my point of view, good anything is a random occurrence. You can't force corporations to make this stuff, because when they try they usually screw it up.

But again, none of this is social (at least for me). I went to a few Trek fan club meetings in the late 1970s and everyone there (all of them) were weird! They were people I wanted nothing to do with and had little in common with. And I haven't been to a Trek fan club since. In the 1970s and again in the 1980s I went to a few conventions and just about everyone there was weird! And a couple years ago I went to a local SciFi convention to see the full version of Exeter TTI and just about everyone there was weird! And I haven't attended another one (even though it is held only a couple miles from my home).

Dennis, do you see what I'm saying here. You seem to be under the misguided belief that you can hold some form of peer pressure over people who (should) already be way outside the influence of such things anyways. And the only reason (that I can see) for you to constantly make such attempts is that peer pressure must be important to you.

Maybe for you Trek is social... but for me, Trek is the least social activity I do. And as I already believe that almost no one likes what I like, I really don't care when you point out that most people like something different. In fact, I find it to be a bizarre argument... or did until you showed me why you believe it to be an effective one.

Don't take any of that the wrong way... I appreciate the insight and it lets me know where you are coming from on all this. You desperately need others to agree with your likes and dislikes, so really none of us should take any of your comments personally (not that I ever did, I think you are one of the most entertaining posters around).

Thanks for clearing that up for us.

 

[blssdwlf]

I liked the new movie as much as I liked Transformers (same writers). They're good popcorn movie writers and the switch to mainstream really helped push Star Trek back up in popularity.

With that said it would have been better if they only left Old/Unrecognizable Spock out or wrote him with more thought.

If he were the original Spock, he'd hop in a starship and gone back in time and righted history and saved Vulcan (and his mom). If it were just an alternate universe, he would of still hopped in a starship, gone back in time and saved Vulcan (and the other Spock's mom) and then found a way to go back to his own universe. Or at least tell the New Young Heroes how to do it.

It's like Superman or Batman not catching the bad guy at the end of the movie and knowing they'll probably never revisit that bad guy ever again to resolve it.

 

[thumbtack]

Ya know, if they had acutally made any effort whatsoever to stick to the original continuity

Since that issue is never going to be addressed (on screen) ever again, can't you just pretend that all of the forthcoming sequels are actually taking place in the old universe? You may cry out, "Impossible!", but I personally know someone who successfully managed to wedge most of Enterprise and all of TAS into the canon, so I know it can be done.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Since that issue is never going to be addressed (on screen) ever again, can't you just pretend that all of the forthcoming sequels are actually taking place in the old universe? You may cry out, "Impossible!", but I personally know someone who successfully managed to wedge most of Enterprise and all of TAS into the canon, so I know it can be done.

Oh you don't know how much I wish I could. Almost nothing would make me happier. But alas, I can't. I see exactly what you're saying. Since we've gotten the initial meeting of the iconic characters out of the way, why can't the rest of their adventures be shoehorned in between the various episodes of TOS? For some, maybe they can. There's noting wrong with trying. I, however, prefer to decline that offer and take my TOS-R DVD's out and watch some real Star Trek whenever I want to. The biggest reason I would have a hard time melding the Abramsverse with the original is the look. That 700+ meter behemoth Abramsprise simply will not fit into the same universe as the comparatively small 289 meter Enterprise from TOS. And that gaudy, glossy, shiny, glaringly white iBridge can't be reconciled against the elegant simplicity of the TOS bridge. And I'm not even going to address the brewery, lest my blood pressure rise uncontrollably. So I'll leave the Abramsverse over there in the corner somewhere to trot about on its own while I sit back and enjoy the Shat's...dramatic...pauses...all day long.

 

[Shaw]

With that said it would have been better if they only left Old/Unrecognizable Spock out or wrote him with more thought.

If he were the original Spock, he'd hop in a starship and gone back in time and righted history and saved Vulcan (and his mom). If it were just an alternate universe, he would of still hopped in a starship, gone back in time and saved Vulcan (and the other Spock's mom) and then found a way to go back to his own universe. Or at least tell the New Young Heroes how to do it.

It's like Superman or Batman not catching the bad guy at the end of the movie and knowing they'll probably never revisit that bad guy ever again to resolve it.

Well, for the sake of enjoyment I ignore (dismiss) old Spock in the movie.

One of the weakest aspects (for me) was the attempt to shoehorn in stereo typical Trek elements (including most of the crew). It felt like they had a grocery list of things they felt they had to have, and it threw off the pacing of the movie. The only characters I thought were needed were Kirk, Spock, Uhura, Pike, Sarek and Amanda. And most of what old Spock brought to the story could have been accomplished using Sarek instead.

I liked the new movie as much as I liked Transformers (same writers). They're good popcorn movie writers and the switch to mainstream really helped push Star Trek back up in popularity.

I really hope that people like this movie for the movie itself rather than because they think others like it. The fact that it achieved any form of popularity shouldn't be a factor.

That having been said, I haven't seen Transformers, so maybe I'll have to take a look.

 

[shapeshifter]

For some reason, the episode Obsession just came to mind.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

 

[blssdwlf]

The fact that it achieved any form of popularity shouldn't be a factor.

The factor I consider with this movie achieving any form of popularity is reviving a dying (IMO) franchise. Helps with word-of-mouth and it helps with marketing.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

People who like Star Trek just don't need the old clubhouse any more.

 

[Warped9]

^^ And people tell me to get over myself.

Two things. Firstly If they really had to have the whole familiar gang together then they could easily have done it while still doing a reboot.

First: ditch the Starfleet Academy lite sequences, because make no mistake that hoary old idea that's been floated for years finally got put to the screen albeit in something of a drastically abbreviated form.

Second: Start off with transfer of command from Pike to Kirk and the beginning of the 5-year voyage. At that point you start seeing the frictions between Kirk, Spock and McCoy. It's a reboot so you can sidestep Gary Mitchell, Dr. Piper, Elizabeth Dehner and even Lee Kelso if you want. If you absolutely must then you can shoehorn in some occasional flashbacks for extra character backstory.

Third: Now you can insert Nero and his badass ship appearing from the future. I'm sure you can shoehorn a Spock Prime in there if you really have to.

Setting the story at this point clearly establishes an alternate continuity without hammering us over the head with it. There, without really trying this thing makes more sense already and without trying to put across quite as many logic flaws (although I'm sure Abrams and company could think up more )


Two other things really bug me about this film and its supporters. Firstly the film: right in the special features of the dvd they're telling you that Star Trek should be more like Star Wars. They don't say it that way exactly word-for-word, but that is what they are saying. And if you watch ST09 along with any of the Star Wars films, more particularly the last SW trilogy then you can see the very same approach to sci-fi storytelling.

And this is reflected in how supporters of this film are defending it. Every argument for the film has essentially said the same thing: TOS did ridiculous stuff so this film is perfectly in keeping with that. We're not doing what hasn't in essence been done before. And so they are readily acknowledging that rather than aiming for something higher like the best TOS stories did they're perfectly fine with this film aiming for the worst.

There ain't nothing else I can say.

 

[M'Sharak]

Unfortunately some people STILL try to start arguments while blatantly ignoring the title of this very thread...

To be fair, that pretty much went out the window back on Page 2 when some of the critics started arguing back (in spite of the title and the premise given in Warped9's opening post); posts deemed not sufficiently critical of the movie could just as easily have been disregarded and left unanswered. As long as it stays civil, though, I don't see why this can't keep going.

 

[TOS Purist]

Dennis, I have one question for you. What does the title of this very thread say?

Does it mention anything about arguments?

Or trolls?

Are you a "critic" of the ST09 movie?

It doesn't need any glorious defenders here, my friend.

And sorry, I guess that was more than one question.