To school, or not to school . . .

[Holdfast]

Nonetheless, some degrees would be worth going into debt for, because the returns are virtually guaranteed and sizable. It'll still take time to pay off the debt, but if you choose to subsequently stay in that degree's profession, it's something you would eventually do.

I disagree mainly due to the aspect of carrying a loan, plus interest, versus income. I recently read a great article of a doctor who was literally in the poor house due to student loans. Right, everyone thinks, "Oooh, a doctor. That shouldn't be a problem." but it is. She had to move back with her parents in order to stay afloat and has been a practicing physician for over 8 years. Granted, she wasn't very wise in how she borrowed or the amounts (all of which were detailed).

She must have made some seriously bad spending decisions outside of funding the degree (and/or got into professional trouble at work/was just bad at her job), because there really isn't any reason this should happen to a doctor. Salaries are generally comfortable, jobs moderately easy to find provided you're not too fussy about where/what they are, and the money's easily enough to repay loans taken out at reasonable rates, and fairly quickly, at that.

It's true that there are plenty of doctors in both the US and UK in money troubles, but in my experience, that's because they're complete financial nitwits, not because the salary isn't enough to repay tuition loans, even in the USA where the cost is several orders of magnitude higher. Seriously, a lot of my colleagues don't have the first clue how to manage money. It's frightening, really. These are people who would get into money troubles even if they had Warren Buffet levels of income....

 

[RoJoHen]

You'll find that in any profession. Many people just have a really hard time living within their means.

 

[SeerSGB]

You'll find that in any profession. Many people just have a really hard time living within their means.

True. But I think the "fad" degree also hurt the job market for that profession. You know the careers that are the next hot thing for a couple of months, maybe year. Everyone and their mom runs out to get a degree in and then 24 months later depress the pay scale by flooding the market with cheap labor.

Computer-tech is a good example: some folks still think a computer degree is a license to print money. After all you hear the stories about some college kid making millions with the latest killer app. Problem is that for every Google or Youtube, etc, there's hundreds/thousands of wage slave comp-gurus that are making piss on the pay scale.

 

[Holdfast]

You'll find that in any profession. Many people just have a really hard time living within their means.

True. But I think the "fad" degree also hurt the job market for that profession.

I think you're both right, to be honest.

We should be in charge of the country, shouldn't we?

 

[John Picard]

You'll find that in any profession. Many people just have a really hard time living within their means.

True. But I think the "fad" degree also hurt the job market for that profession.

I think you're both right, to be honest.

We should be in charge of the country, shouldn't we?

He's hit the nail on the head before I could. Everyone still thinks anything in IT is an instant goldmine. More than anything, a BA or anything with "Law" in it will actually be more beneficial to a person. And I don't mean being a lawyer, either.

 

[Kestra]

Nonetheless, some degrees would be worth going into debt for, because the returns are virtually guaranteed and sizable. It'll still take time to pay off the debt, but if you choose to subsequently stay in that degree's profession, it's something you would eventually do.

I disagree mainly due to the aspect of carrying a loan, plus interest, versus income. I recently read a great article of a doctor who was literally in the poor house due to student loans. Right, everyone thinks, "Oooh, a doctor. That shouldn't be a problem." but it is. She had to move back with her parents in order to stay afloat and has been a practicing physician for over 8 years. Granted, she wasn't very wise in how she borrowed or the amounts (all of which were detailed).

She must have made some seriously bad spending decisions outside of funding the degree (and/or got into professional trouble at work/was just bad at her job), because there really isn't any reason this should happen to a doctor. Salaries are generally comfortable, jobs moderately easy to find provided you're not too fussy about where/what they are, and the money's easily enough to repay loans taken out at reasonable rates, and fairly quickly, at that.

I've got to agree with Holdfast here. There are plenty of opportunities available for physicians and while they're not all get-rich-quick, they're enough to pay off your loans. It just may take awhile or you might have to go live in the middle of nowhere. I suppose it also depends on how long out of med school you're talking. Residency isn't going to pay the same as a practice. Saying "doctor" is a bit ambiguous because it's difficult to tell what point she was at in her career.

In that way, I think med students are a bit safer than law students. There are some degrees worth going into debt for, but it seems that those are becoming fewer. And really in any profession you're going to have the story of the person who couldn't make it work, for whatever reason.

I initially thought I would do a masters in psychology but it doesn't seem like the "payoff" would really be worth the time and money spent in those years of graduate school. I might just go for broke and apply to doctorate programs depending on my grades and test scores. I certainly wouldn't get anything with a bachelors.

 

[Holdfast]

In that way, I think med students are a bit safer than law students. There are some degrees worth going into debt for, but it seems that those are becoming fewer.

True, I think.

I initially thought I would do a masters in psychology but it doesn't seem like the "payoff" would really be worth the time and money spent in those years of graduate school. I might just go for broke and apply to doctorate programs depending on my grades and test scores. I certainly wouldn't get anything with a bachelors.

Bachelors degrees are becoming increasingly less valued, simply because so many people now have them. In general, Masters are still moderately valued and should net reasonable ROI, but yeah, Doctorates are the only ones left to carry real weight within any given field.

If someone asked me whether they should get a Bachelors or a Masters (without planning on getting a Doctorate after) then I'd fairly strongly ask them to consider WHY they wanted the degrees. If it was purely for career/financial reasons rather than genuine interest in the field, then I'd suggest they'd be financially better off & more secure by learning a trade such as electrician, carpentry, plumbing, etc. In terms of income, you'd be ahead of a lot of people with just Bachelors or Masters degrees, and you'd actually develop a lot of very useful and transferable soft skills by the interaction with the public you'd develop in those trades.

 

[T'Baio]

Don't you guys have to get a Bachelors before getting a Masters or a Doctorate? You do here in Canada.

 

[RoJoHen]

Don't you guys have to get a Bachelors before getting a Masters or a Doctorate? You do here in Canada.

You sure do.

 

[Kestra]

Bachelors degrees are becoming increasingly less valued, simply because so many people now have them. In general, Masters are still moderately valued and should net reasonable ROI, but yeah, Doctorates are the only ones left to carry real weight within any given field.

If someone asked me whether they should get a Bachelors or a Masters (without planning on getting a Doctorate after) then I'd fairly strongly ask them to consider WHY they wanted the degrees. If it was purely for career/financial reasons rather than genuine interest in the field, then I'd suggest they'd be financially better off & more secure by learning a trade such as electrician, carpentry, plumbing, etc. In terms of income, you'd be ahead of a lot of people with just Bachelors or Masters degrees, and you'd actually develop a lot of very useful and transferable soft skills by the interaction with the public you'd develop in those trades.

I knew straightaway that I wanted more than a bachelors, but I've been discouraged from pursuing a masters for a few reasons you touch on. This is from my own limited research, but I feel that the job opportunities associated with a masters would not satisfy me, not simply on a financial level but also because they are too far removed from what actually attracts me to the field. That is not to say that satisfying positions do not exist for those with a masters in psychology. I just don't think there are enough of them. But perhaps I have difficult standards!

My main reason for pursuing a doctorate would indeed be interest in the field itself.

Don't you guys have to get a Bachelors before getting a Masters or a Doctorate? You do here in Canada.

Yeah, it's bachelors, masters, doctorate.

 

[RoJoHen]

Yeah, it's bachelors, masters, doctorate.

Which is why this whole system is so screwed up. Some of us really don't want to go through that much schooling.

 

[Holdfast]

Don't you guys have to get a Bachelors before getting a Masters or a Doctorate? You do here in Canada.

Depends. If you're just starting out, doing one after the other in university, then yeah. If you're coming to the degree in later life, other work-related experience or other equivalent qualifications can sometimes count, allowing you to waive the need for having a separate Bachelors, depending on the Masters programme you apply for. It varies.

I suspect some Doctoral programmes may adopt a similar philosophy, allowing applications with just a Bachelors, provided you have substantial experience in the field or can demonstrate other equivalent qualifications.

As I implied earlier, I'd have no problem with someone doing a Bachelors, if their plan was then to do a Masters and then get their Doctorate. Even if they just planned to get the Masters after the Bachelors, I can see the logic. But if they're just getting a Bachelors for career/money reasons (as lots of people do), without actually particularly being interested in the subject, I think they're likely to be disappointed in terms of ROI, esp. these days when Bachelors are so common.

 

[RoJoHen]

But if they're just getting a Bachelors for career/money reasons (as lots of people do), without actually particularly being interested in the subject, I think they're likely to be disappointed in terms of ROI, esp. these days when Bachelors are so common.

Unfortunately, high schools are still drilling the importance of a Bachelor's Degree into their students' heads. I had no idea when I was applying for colleges that in 4 years my degree would be effectively useless without even MORE schooling afterward. I went to college because "you need a Bachelors degree to get a job."

 

[John Picard]

In that way, I think med students are a bit safer than law students. There are some degrees worth going into debt for, but it seems that those are becoming fewer.

True, I think.

Both of you need to price Malpractice Insurance. A lot of doctors are getting out of the practice of medicine for that exact reason. A friend of mine is an anesthesiologist and he has hinted at how expensive his MI is.

 

[T'Baio]

Well, considering an anesthesiologist's job is to keep someone alive during a procedure that should kill them, it's little wonder. They have the most stressful job of any doctor.

 

[Snaploud]

I would recommend getting a bachelors degree if only because you're probably going to want a masters degree at some point in the future. It's a lot easier to make a late-in-life decision to get a masters degree than a late-in-life decision to get a bachelors degree and a masters degree.

 

[Kestra]

In that way, I think med students are a bit safer than law students. There are some degrees worth going into debt for, but it seems that those are becoming fewer.

True, I think.

Both of you need to price Malpractice Insurance. A lot of doctors are getting out of the practice of medicine for that exact reason. A friend of mine is an anesthesiologist and he has hinted at how expensive his MI is.

I don't need to price it, I pay the malpractice insurance bills at my parents' medical practice. And yes, it is expensive.

Edit:

I would recommend getting a bachelors degree if only because you're probably going to want a masters degree at some point in the future. It's a lot easier to make a late-in-life decision to get a masters degree than a late-in-life decision to get a bachelors degree and a masters degree.

My husband benefited from doing this. He got his bachelors, got a job out of college, and then that job paid for him to get his masters while he worked for them. He got lucky in a lot of ways though.

 

[Amaris]

ittakestime.org
definitely going to see about withdrawing, and possibly going to community college

I'm glad I made this decision before going to classes

thanks, data_lover

Good idea. That goes for anyone thinking about University of Phoenix as well. Trust me on that one. I'm transferring to a community college once I get the time to get all the paperwork out of the way.

 

[backstept]

I wrote a letter declaring my intentions to cancel my enrollment
let's hope they don't go too crazy trying to get me to reconsider
stories I've heard make them sound like used car salesmen

 

[Michael Chris]

Good luck! I went to the local community college for my first two years. It cost about $500 in books per semester plus some very small miscellaneous fees. That was it. Compared to the university (which in many ways is inferior in obtaining an education) which would have been at least a few thousand per year in fees. Those were both after a scholarship that the state grants to every HS grad if they go straight into college.