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If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latinum?

If you lived in the star trek universe, would you care about Latinum?


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Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

My view is that the standard of living is so high in the 23rd and 24th Century is so high that you don't need to scrabble and claw and fight for money.

Technology is so good that everyone is fed,clothed,housed and watered and can pursue their interest without having to make a pile, as we have to in the 20th.

Look at what we can do today. Someone on the minimum wage can feed themselves, be free, learn a lot,have kids and even travel to another country,or two, in their lifetime.


You would not be able to do that, as a serf, in the 12th Century. Your lot would be just to work for your master.

Project the line onwards and look at what millionaires can do today.

By the 24th Century, everyone will have that option.

That's ST, in my opinion.
 
Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

You did not answer the question. If the state cannot possibly enure that everyone has a yacht--if, as you say, that is best left to free enterprise--how can it legitimately assert its ability to provide everyone with basic needs--much less, better than the market?

Straw man - a yacht is not a BASIC NEED in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER.

If an individual decides a luxury item like a yacht is something they NEED to survive, apart from being deluded all you can say is "you go earn the money and buy your yacht".

That is hardly the same as providing the basic needs I quoted, the two concepts are inextricably linked and its all basically politics 101.

The objection to "big government" is based in being wedded to individualism, and therefore the right of the individual to decide what they NEED, though in this case it is the same a a thre year old who decides they NEED everything that they WANT.

A desire to have the state provide all basic needs as part of a "big" governement infrastructure is more closely linked to collectivism, and there of course you have no right to say "I NEED a yacht".

The reason I described your post as so "American" is that the debate in this thread is so totally polarised. I'm not necessarily saying the British way, where we currently have two "middle way" parties it is very hard to tell apart, is necessarily more constructive, but the debate here is between two polar opposite positions.

Sir...let me put it this way:

If a government cannot provide wants...how can you expect it to provide needs?
 
Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

Rush, that's a straw man to even me.
 
Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

^Oh, it sounds rediculous and insane, I know. But in effect, I'm demonstrating absurdity by being absurd.



Here's my point: What's the difference?

The entire premise is, that somehow...the government is capable of providing every person's needs effectively and efficiently.

If we can accept that the State can provide good food for all, or high-quality health care for all, or adequate housing for all, or whatever...how can we not allow for it to somehow provide yachts for all who want them?
 
Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

The entire premise is, that somehow...the government is capable of providing every person's needs effectively and efficiently.

Actually, the premise is that the government is capable of providing for the needs of every person who is unable to meet those needs through private efforts. Government as supplementer and guaranteer, not primary provider.

ETA:

Massachusetts's relatively good state is due directly to the fiscally responsible attitude Mitt Romney brought to the state. He was a businessman, who ran the state like a business. Before he came in, the state had a serious deficit. When he left office, it had a surplus.

You mean like that liberal Bill Clinton -- before his work was undone by that conservative George W. Bush?

Texas has no state income tax.

And it would be interesting to see how well that would work for Texas if it weren't a state with a lot of natural resources like oil and if its demographics were different.

Meanwhile, for all that you enjoy talking about how Texas is doing well, bear in mind that its personal per-capita income in 2007 was $37,187 -- making it 21st out of 51 (including the District of Columbia).

By contrast, that dirty hippie commune of Massachusetts had a personal per-capita income level of $49,082 -- making it 3rd in the nation.

I think I'd rather live in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts than the State of Texas.

They had tort refrorm, etc.--and as a result, health care is far less "broken" than the average state system.

I for one have no problem with tort reform, provided it doesn't go so far as to deny a means of recompense when patients are the victims of malpractice.

But I'm curious...what do you think is the explanation for the prosperity of Texas?

As I just noted, I'm not convinced it's quite the wealthy paradise you're painting.

Having said that, I think that the presence of oil simply cannot be underestimated in making an otherwise poor polity comparatively wealthy. Goodness knows Venezuela and Saudi Arabia would be far less important in world politics were it not for their oil.

We classical economists have a saying:

1. You're an economist, now? A few weeks ago, you told me you were a 19-year-old just starting on his Political Science B.A.

2. Your views are more akin to Friedmanism than classical economics proper.

"Capitalism is the unequal 'distribution' of wealth.
Statism is the equal distribution of...poverty."

Nonsense. In a country where 1% of the population owns 34.6% of privately-held wealth, the next 19% of the population owns 50.5% of the wealth, and the remaining 80% of the population owns only 15% of private wealth? Capitalism is the lopsided distribution of poverty.

Is the free market absolutely perfect? No.

That 80% having to share 15% of the wealth amongst themselves almost certainly agrees with you.

"But Rush, but Rush--what about those who honestly can't work their own way?"

Well...that's what private charities are for.

Someone else once argued that he shouldn't be obligated to help the poor.

“At this festive season of the year, Mr. Scrooge,” said the gentleman, taking up a pen, “it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir.”

“Are there no prisons?” asked Scrooge.

“Plenty of prisons,” said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.

“And the Union workhouses?” demanded Scrooge. “Are they still in operation?”

“They are. Still,” returned the gentleman, “I wish I could say they were not.”

“The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?” said Scrooge.

“Both very busy, sir.”

“Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,” said Scrooge. “I’m very glad to hear it.”

“Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude,” returned the gentleman, “a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?”

“Nothing!” Scrooge replied.

“You wish to be anonymous?”

“I wish to be left alone,” said Scrooge. “Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don’t make merry myself at Christmas and I can’t afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned—they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there.”

“Many can’t go there; and many would rather die.”

“If they would rather die,” said Scrooge, “they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population. Besides—excuse me—I don’t know that.”

“But you might know it,” observed the gentleman.

“It’s not my business,” Scrooge returned. “It’s enough for a man to understand his own business, and not to interfere with other people’s. Mine occupies me constantly. Good afternoon, gentlemen!”

Certainly, private charities are important. But to imply that they can end poverty is just absurd.

Quite frankly, The Red Cross and The Salvation Army are far more efficient and far more succesful than anything the state can come up with

When I was growing up and my mother couldn't find work, the Red Cross and the Salvation Army didn't pay for our food. When I needed a primary and secondary education, the Red Cross and Salvation Army didn't pay for my schooling. When we needed help paying for school lunches, it wasn't the Red Cross or Salvation Army that paid for my meals. When my grandparents were in need of funding to pay for large medical expenses, the Red Cross and Salvation Army didn't pay for their lifesaving drugs. When I went to university, the Red Cross and Salvation Army didn't pay for my tuition.

The government got us through all of that.

That's not to disparage them. When we suffered a fire, the Salvation Army was an enormous help. So was the government. They're important parts of society with important roles to play.

But they simply aren't as able to help people as the government is.

As private charities have a limited, non-guaranteed supply of income, they have to make sure that every dollar counts, and that nothing is wasted on red tape.

Actually, plenty of private organizations spend more money on bureaucratic costs -- aka, "red tape" -- than government programs. Most insurance companies, for instance, spend far more on administrative costs than Medicare.

They also have to make sure that the people they help are legit, and not mooching "welfare queens/kings" who are just trying to exploit the compassion of the people

As someone whose mother was forced out of unemployment benefits in a time of need because of a prior time of need, let me assure that the government makes an effort (I would argue an overzealous one) to weed out the people who are "mooching."
 
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Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

As long as I had access to a replicator and a holodeck, I would not care at all about latinum or material gain.

Not everyone in Trek has, or wants, a replicator. Picard's brother (Robert) refused to allow them in his house, yet they were still fairly well off. So how would you think Robert's family got by? They must have sold the wine from the family vineyards. And how do you think they did that? ;)

As for holodecks: They are useful for starship personnel who need a place *on board ship* they can relax in, but in general, what's the point? Nothing in a holodeck is real.
 
Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

As for holodecks: They are useful for starship personnel who need a place *on board ship* they can relax in, but in general, what's the point? Nothing in a holodeck is real.

Neither is most TV. And yet I promise you, people spend hours upon hours of their lives watching TV. (Or, for that matter, making use of pornographic imagery.)

Hook them up with a technology capable of creating nearly perfect re-creations of any environment and any substance in the known universe? Your average man will conjure up a re-creation of a beach in the Bahamas and a naked copy of Bar Refaeli and spend as much time as possible doing way more with her than he could with a copy of Playboy.
 
Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

I'm all for democratic socialism
 
Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

I've not read the majority of this thread.

The point I was trying to make in my reply was that the whole issue is not about economics or feasibility but purpose.

If we continue our technological ascent long enough, the time will come when each of us could have our own tailor-made planet and all the goodies thereon. Whole fleets of yachts and space yachts. We'll not have to even see another person our entire lives if we so individually chose. We could have artificial intelligences that look and feel and seem like human beings if we like, countless variations in looks and personalities and states of free will. Perhaps ones we can procreate with...each of us could have countless forms of offspring by them. All of this, and gobs more, for free, at birth. And all of it programmable to be incapable of being used to take away the same of others - so no ganging up 2 on 1, strong on the weak. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness absolute. Come to think of it, keep going eons more, and we're each a Q - infinitely intelligent and powerful, only better because of that no-ganging up clause I mentioned.

Abraham Lincoln said, "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." So what now? What do we live for beyond trying to get more clutter and keeping others hands off it?
 
Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

Now there are some stipulations. You were born on a Federation protected planet with the same standards of redistribution that exist on Earth. Most of the people around you are almost completely ignorant to the tenets of capitalism and pursuit of material gain (as demonstrated in Star Trek lore-- particularly interactions between Jake Sisko and Nog). We do know that greed among humans is not completely unheard of (Vash, Hagath, etc).

Clearly, parts of the Federation seem to exist in an economic bubble with some humans taking to intergalactic commerce more than others (after all, all basic utility seems to be met and then some). At the same time, humans, when given limited resources are prone to trades and bargaining (Voyager's swapping of "replicator rations" and "holosuite hours"). Riker was known to gamble with real Latinum and was actually owed money by Quark.

So you are on Earth or a similar colony, you are free to pursue happiness to your heart's content-- whether you decide to be a bad writer or basketweaver-- the Federation will meet your needs. Would you still be interested in material gain, rare artifacts, and the pursuit of Latinum and wealth beyond the Federation?

If there is one thing TREK has taught us is that nothing is absolute..not even death..so yes, I would want some latinum.

Rob
 
Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

Sir...let me put it this way:

If a government cannot provide wants...how can you expect it to provide needs?

You consider needs a superset of wants? I'd consider it quite the opposite. I stated already what I'd consider to be basic human needs, you have the traditional survival needs - shelter, water, food in that order. In addition I'd add medical care, education and culture to that list. In the UK we actually have a system that works fairly well on this basis (heck, all the last one needs is free museums and public libraries). Anything else on top of that I would class as a WANT, including sports cars, yachts, hookers, caviar, designer clothes, drugs, yadda yadda.

Now, if we are going to get a bit communist (I hasten to add, I'm NOT a communist) you could of course provide everyone with ACCESS to a yacht, but then of course your example would not be satisfied, the human want for, lets say, plumage, would not be fulfilled. So in order to have a functional happy society you need to have that ability to climb, to acquire and so on.

I honestly think a social democaratic model is the fairest, providing the basic human needs while still allowing enterprise and opportunity. It is very hard to get right, but most of Europe operates much more this way than the USA, and I think a more equitable society is preferable.
 
Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

I don't think that our political systems as we see them today, will even be applicable in another 400 years.

The point is, technology will provide a better life, not political systems. That's what ST is trying to say, I think.
 
Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

Actually, the premise is that the government is capable of providing for the needs of every person who is unable to meet those needs through private efforts. Government as supplementer and guaranteer, not primary provider.

Indeed. Quite frankly, Sci, where would you draw the line to that end?

Massachusetts's relatively good state is due directly to the fiscally responsible attitude Mitt Romney brought to the state. He was a businessman, who ran the state like a business. Before he came in, the state had a serious deficit. When he left office, it had a surplus.

You mean like that liberal Bill Clinton -- before his work was undone by that conservative George W. Bush?

I mean like that conservative Newt Gingrich--whose "Contract With America" backed Clinton into a corner, forcing him to triangulate.

Bush, BTW, ushered in even more prosperity, despite 9/11, with the Bush Tax Cuts. The downturn happened as a result of the liberals in Congress fighting efforts--by Bush and others--to put a stop to the subprime lending.


And it would be interesting to see how well that would work for Texas if it weren't a state with a lot of natural resources like oil and if its demographics were different.

Meanwhile, for all that you enjoy talking about how Texas is doing well, bear in mind that its personal per-capita income in 2007 was $37,187 -- making it 21st out of 51 (including the District of Columbia).

By contrast, that dirty hippie commune of Massachusetts had a personal per-capita income level of $49,082 -- making it 3rd in the nation.

I think I'd rather live in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts than the State of Texas.

And how is it doing now--after the economic downturn?


I for one have no problem with tort reform, provided it doesn't go so far as to deny a means of recompense when patients are the victims of malpractice.

I'm glad we agree.

As I just noted, I'm not convinced it's quite the wealthy paradise you're painting.

Having said that, I think that the presence of oil simply cannot be underestimated in making an otherwise poor polity comparatively wealthy. Goodness knows Venezuela and Saudi Arabia would be far less important in world politics were it not for their oil.

Yes, oil is a wonderful resource.


1. You're an economist, now? A few weeks ago, you told me you were a 19-year-old just starting on his Political Science B.A.

And I am. What I mean is I simply adhere to the classical economics theory--which includes Milton Friedman, BTW.



Nonsense. In a country where 1% of the population owns 34.6% of privately-held wealth, the next 19% of the population owns 50.5% of the wealth, and the remaining 80% of the population owns only 15% of private wealth? Capitalism is the lopsided distribution of poverty.



That 80% having to share 15% of the wealth amongst themselves almost certainly agrees with you.

Again, Sci--the economy is not a zero-sum game. Wealth is created, before it can be "owned".

You want to own more wealth? Create more wealth.

[/QUOTE]
Someone else once argued that he shouldn't be obligated to help the poor.
[/QUOTE]

Ebenezer Scrooge was only one man (a fictional man, but anyhow...). The problem was himself. And indeed, in the end, a happier, kinder Scrooge gave a great deal to the charity.

BTW...if you look at the quote you brought up--Scrooge mentiones the "Poor Law" and the "Treadmill". He was claiming, as you did, that it's the government's responsibility to care for the needy.


Certainly, private charities are important. But to imply that they can end poverty is just absurd.

I made no such implication. But it is more irrational to imply that the government can end poverty.


When I was growing up and my mother couldn't find work, the Red Cross and the Salvation Army didn't pay for our food. When I needed a primary and secondary education, the Red Cross and Salvation Army didn't pay for my schooling. When we needed help paying for school lunches, it wasn't the Red Cross or Salvation Army that paid for my meals. When my grandparents were in need of funding to pay for large medical expenses, the Red Cross and Salvation Army didn't pay for their lifesaving drugs. When I went to university, the Red Cross and Salvation Army didn't pay for my tuition.

The government got us through all of that.

That's not to disparage them. When we suffered a fire, the Salvation Army was an enormous help. So was the government. They're important parts of society with important roles to play.

But they simply aren't as able to help people as the government is.

Sci...not to be cruel here...but did it ever occur to you that the expenses your family faced are the result of government intruding into the private sector in the first place--through regualtions, grants which inflate the system with money, lack of competition because of federal barriers to interstate competition, and so on?

As private charities have a limited, non-guaranteed supply of income, they have to make sure that every dollar counts, and that nothing is wasted on red tape.

Actually, plenty of private organizations spend more money on bureaucratic costs -- aka, "red tape" -- than government programs. Most insurance companies, for instance, spend far more on administrative costs than Medicare.

And Medicare is going broke.

They also have to make sure that the people they help are legit, and not mooching "welfare queens/kings" who are just trying to exploit the compassion of the people

As someone whose mother was forced out of unemployment benefits in a time of need because of a prior time of need, let me assure that the government makes an effort (I would argue an overzealous one) to weed out the people who are "mooching."

Again, this effort is due to welfare reform--Newt Gingrich, et al. You can argue about the "cruelty" all you want, but it was a neccesary act, due to gaming of the system--and overall overdependency.
 
Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

. . . true equality would probably require something like the short story (I forget from whom...) of “The United States Handicapper General”. . .
The story is Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut Jr. And it should be required reading for EVERYONE.
. . . In the United States children screw off the entire summer during their K-12 years and yet these are described as the best years of our lives.
That's because they're KIDS.
. . . The whole argument is a total straw man approach, there is no reason whatsoever why you cannot have a state infrastructure that redistributes wealth to the extent that all citizens have what they NEED (shelter, water, food, medical care, education, culture) and anything else on top people dream about having (yachts, sports cars, hookers) is paid for by enterprise and wealth creation.
The problem with this whole “wealth redistribution” thing is that “need” is a subjective term. What if one person decides that his wife's plastic surgery or his daughter's orthodontic treatment are basic needs, while another person considers them luxuries? You yourself mentioned “education” and “culture.” Exactly what level of education constitutes a basic need? High school? Two years or four years of college? More? And you can certainly survive without “culture.” Hell, I know plenty of people who are doing just fine and have no culture at all!

There's a chapter of Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged -- can't remember exactly which one -- in which a character exasperatedly describes how his former employers tried to run a factory by the principle “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” It's a wonderful satire of statism and command economies.

The system that works best is when individuals determine their own needs, and then go about meeting those needs by engaging in voluntary exchange of goods, labor, and ideas.
 
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Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

^^ You would think that most people would "get" that, but some don't. But its as simple as that.

Rob
 
Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

The problem with this whole “wealth redistribution” thing is that “need” is a subjective term. What if one person decides that his wife's plastic surgery or his daughter's orthodontic treatment are basic needs, while another person considers them luxuries? You yourself mentioned “education” and “culture.” Exactly what level of education constitutes a basic need? High school? Two years or four years of college? More? And you can certainly survive without “culture.” Hell, I know plenty of people who are doing just fine and have no culture at all!

Yes, need is a subjective term. If there was 100% agreement on how to run our society we would not all be here in this thread.

THAT SAID there are some generally agreed characteristics that are needs as opposed to wants, and of course there is again a question of degree and level of this provision.

There's a chapter of Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged -- can't remember exactly which one -- in which a character exasperatedly describes how his former employers tried to run a factory by the principle “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” It's a wonderful satire of statism and command economies.

The problem with absolute collectivism as parodied in this kind of thing is that it is an ideal, not a practical system. Now in fact that statement you quote is of course the ideal expressed in one phrase, I'm not proposing that and have posted at length that I consider a social democratic middle course the way to go.

The system that works best is when individuals determine their own needs, and then go about meeting those needs by engaging in voluntary exchange of goods, labor, and ideas.

No it isn't because it is basically what in the USA and to a lesser extent countries like the UK is what we have, and leads to widespread poverty and one end of the scale and obscene wealth at the other.

I believe fundamentally that any moral society needs to be based on a reasonable standard for all, which is of course tied to working proactively for the good of all, not just creating wealth but in behaviour and moral attitude. This is my personal ideal of course, and again, not everyone agrees.
 
Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

As for holodecks: They are useful for starship personnel who need a place *on board ship* they can relax in, but in general, what's the point? Nothing in a holodeck is real.

Neither is most TV. And yet I promise you, people spend hours upon hours of their lives watching TV. (Or, for that matter, making use of pornographic imagery.)

Hook them up with a technology capable of creating nearly perfect re-creations of any environment and any substance in the known universe? Your average man will conjure up a re-creation of a beach in the Bahamas and a naked copy of Bar Refaeli and spend as much time as possible doing way more with her than he could with a copy of Playboy.
“. . . They found it's a trap, like a narcotic. Because when dreams become more important than reality, you give up travel, building, creating. You even forget how to repair the machines left behind by your ancestors. You just sit, living and re-living other lives . . .”

Sound familiar?
 
Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

The problem with this whole “wealth redistribution” thing is that “need” is a subjective term. What if one person decides that his wife's plastic surgery or his daughter's orthodontic treatment are basic needs, while another person considers them luxuries? You yourself mentioned “education” and “culture.” Exactly what level of education constitutes a basic need? High school? Two years or four years of college? More? And you can certainly survive without “culture.” Hell, I know plenty of people who are doing just fine and have no culture at all!

THIS!

The problem with using "need", rather than production, as a standard of payment is:

1) Who decides "need"?

And more importantly:

2) It causes those who are dependent on the system to lose their incentive to get out and work to the best of their ability--because they won't be paid proportional to work--their needs will be supplies by the government because they "need" it.

There's a chapter of Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged -- can't remember exactly which one -- in which a character exasperatedly describes how his former employers tried to run a factory by the principle “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” It's a wonderful satire of statism and command economies.

Part II, chapter X. :)

The system that works best is when individuals determine their own needs, and then go about meeting those needs by engaging in voluntary exchange of goods, labor, and ideas.

Good man. :techman:
 
Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

No it isn't because it is basically what in the USA and to a lesser extent countries like the UK is what we have, and leads to widespread poverty and one end of the scale and obscene wealth at the other.

"Basically"? No, we have not had true, full-fledged free-market capitalism for a long time--and neither has the UK.

Both countries have "mixed economies", where the government has taken control of certain aspects of the market with "consumerist" regulations, minimum wages, environmental directives, subsidies, etc.

I believe fundamentally that any moral society needs to be based on a reasonable standard for all, which is of course tied to working proactively for the good of all, not just creating wealth but in behaviour and moral attitude. This is my personal ideal of course, and again, not everyone agrees.

Well, it's funny Sci should bring up Milton Friedman, because the man himself addressed this subject of "greed" vs. "virtue" in a Phil Donahue interview way back when:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A
 
Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

No, we have not had true, full-fledged free-market capitalism for a long time--and neither has the UK.

Both countries have “mixed economies,” where the government has taken control of certain aspects of the market with “consumerist” regulations, minimum wages, environmental directives, subsidies, etc.
Subsidies are just one part of rampant “crony capitalism.”

http://townhall.com/columnists/JohnStossel/2010/01/13/lets_take_the_crony_out_of_crony_capitalism
 
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