If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latinum?

[Arpy]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

Um...am I the only one who'd like to live in the Federation working damn hard at a job that would let my dreams become reality?

I don't think Reagan's dreams were about latinum, dollars, credits, or capitalism.

 

[Sci]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

I don't think Reagan's dreams were about latinum, dollars, credits, or capitalism.

Of course they weren't. They were about having power over other people and using the excuse of "hard work" and "capitalism" to justify it.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

^Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure.

Um...am I the only one who'd like to live in the Federation working damn hard at a job that would let my dreams become reality?

I don't think Reagan's dreams were about latinum, dollars, credits, or capitalism.

Not that, per se, so much as individual responsability in general--people taking charge of their own lives, without waiting on the government to prop them up.

It's worth noting that, in the Memory Beta artical on Trill, that Trill culture is quite firm on personal responability, and it's economy is described as a "meritocracy"--i.e., merit, or ability, is rewarded, while lack of merit is not "propped up".

(Thus, Trill is, quite frankly, free-market capitalism at its best--Fereginar, by contrast, being a corrupted form of capitalism at its worst. Is it any wonder that Ezri comes from a wealthy family that runs a mining corporation?)

Trill did not join the UFP until they were absolutely sure that the Federation possesed a similar meritocracy.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

Then what IS the "punishment" for failure in the UFP? What is the system of incentives and disincentives, if everyone gets to have anything they want, in the UFP?

 

[Rush Limborg]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

Well, as I said before, even with replicators, there is a limited supply of energy to power them.

Heck--there's even a limited supply of replicators!

But anyhow--I'm sure when Bill Gates mass-produced PC's for the first time, there must've been a lot of discussion about "Oh...but what will happen to all the workers whose jobs will be lost because of these things?"

Fortunately...that didn't happen. Rather than destroying free enterprise, the computer made it even MORE awesome than ever before!

I suppose, somehow, that goes for the replicator, as well.


But in answer to your question, Nerys...I'd think a good example was Bashir's father. It's worth noting that he was struggling a bit, experimenting with different realms of work...trying, and failing, over and over...until finally, it's implied that he's found a carrer that will be rewarding for him.

 

[Sci]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

But in answer to your question, Nerys...I'd think a good example was Bashir's father. It's worth noting that he was struggling a bit, experimenting with different realms of work...trying, and failing, over and over...until finally, it's implied that he's found a carrer that will be rewarding for him.

Not really. The elder Bashir was implied to basically be trying to pass himself off as a success when he was a failure at everything, and in the end he went to jail. You'll notice that Julian was completely embarrassed by him and his stories of false success, to the point where he even changed his own accent to a more Received Pronunciation accent versus his father's working-class London accent. And in the end, the elder Bashir went to prison for altering his son's genome. There was never any implication whatsoever that he found a rewarding career, only that he'd failed at everything he tried.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

But in answer to your question, Nerys...I'd think a good example was Bashir's father. It's worth noting that he was struggling a bit, experimenting with different realms of work...trying, and failing, over and over...until finally, it's implied that he's found a carrer that will be rewarding for him.

So there's an intrinsic penalty, yes...but where's the extrinsic penalty? The harsh truth is that some people are extrinsically, not intrinsically motivated, and that's human nature, not simply a matter of technology.

 

[Anika Hanson]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

No, as long I was a part of the federation/in starfleet I wouldn't have much use for it.

 

[Deks]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

Well, as I said before, even with replicators, there is a limited supply of energy to power them.

Heck--there's even a limited supply of replicators!

But anyhow--I'm sure when Bill Gates mass-produced PC's for the first time, there must've been a lot of discussion about "Oh...but what will happen to all the workers whose jobs will be lost because of these things?"

Fortunately...that didn't happen. Rather than destroying free enterprise, the computer made it even MORE awesome than ever before!

I suppose, somehow, that goes for the replicator, as well.


But in answer to your question, Nerys...I'd think a good example was Bashir's father. It's worth noting that he was struggling a bit, experimenting with different realms of work...trying, and failing, over and over...until finally, it's implied that he's found a carrer that will be rewarding for him.

Let's see ... replicators are in short supply on star-ships, not to mention the fact the energy source that powers them is limited.

Planets/colonies that have actual power grids (probably far surpassing the outputs of star ships) would not have a problem powering replicators.

Besides, energy in the Trek universe is essentially in unlimited amounts (or close to it) ... at least on planets.

Replicators were also described that if a material you wish to create is very complex in make-up, it will require more energy to make.

Trek series has been observed predominantly from a star-ship viewpoint ... or a view-point on a station ... both of which don't have planetary resources to generate near inexhaustible energy levels.

Star-ship limitations in terms of energy generation for replicators and limitation doesn't apply to planets.

Replicators can make virtually anything, not just foods and beverages (fully charged phasers come to mind, power couplings, spare parts, etc ...).
It doesn't necessarily have to be BIG ... but it can be replicated in many parts, then later on assembled into something larger.

 

[Deks]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

But in answer to your question, Nerys...I'd think a good example was Bashir's father. It's worth noting that he was struggling a bit, experimenting with different realms of work...trying, and failing, over and over...until finally, it's implied that he's found a carrer that will be rewarding for him.

Not really. The elder Bashir was implied to basically be trying to pass himself off as a success when he was a failure at everything, and in the end he went to jail. You'll notice that Julian was completely embarrassed by him and his stories of false success, to the point where he even changed his own accent to a more Received Pronunciation accent versus his father's working-class London accent. And in the end, the elder Bashir went to prison for altering his son's genome. There was never any implication whatsoever that he found a rewarding career, only that he'd failed at everything he tried.

Indeed.
Bashir was not punished for apparently failing at everything he tried to do.
He was punished for breaking a law that banned genetic modifications on individuals that would result in 'Augments'.

 

[Withers]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

We're talking about a universe where literally anything is possible through the wonders of technology that, at times, borders on being magical. In a universe where I could time travel, go faster than the speed of light, visit thousands upon thousands of alien worlds, teleport, replicate more or less anything I wanted, alter my physical appearance to be anything I wanted it to be, enhance anything about myself I wanted to enhance and could essentially do it all in relative comfort and safety...

what the hell would I want with Latinum?

-Withers-​

 

[T'Girl]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

^To pay for your access to all that technology?

TANSTAAFL

 

[Myasishchev]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

Well, as I said before, even with replicators, there is a limited supply of energy to power them.

This is absolutely true. The energy is only free in that no one owns it at the outset; civilizations still have to capture it, and it will still be finite, even if it seems unlimited compared to 21st century Earth. The supposition of magical charge/spin for antimatter production, which some people make, comes across to me bafflingly obtuse. A world totally devoid of scarcity is not only magic, but also likely to be uninteresting.

And of course there's a somewhat limited amount of real estate, although less so than Lex Luthor's father believed, since they are making land anymore. To try to determine how real property works in the Fed would require huge, wanking intellectual exercise.

Heck--there's even a limited supply of replicators!

But anyhow--I'm sure when Bill Gates mass-produced PC's for the first time, there must've been a lot of discussion about "Oh...but what will happen to all the workers whose jobs will be lost because of these things?"

Fortunately...that didn't happen. Rather than destroying free enterprise, the computer made it even MORE awesome than ever before!

Now, the jury is still out on that, Rush. Automation will eventually remove the need for human labor, as we know it, at least. The mechanization of agriculture did destroy most of the labor needs for the agricultural sector of the economy. Similar processes have destroyed most of the labor needs of the industrial sector, and the service sector which now makes up most of the American economy (and possibly the world economy, I don't recall) is not immune to automation. Online shopping will eventually all but destroy brick-and-mortar retailers; automated restaurants will reduce labor needs at your local burger joint; in the farther future, transportation will very likely become automated, making truck drivers obsolete.

Even expert jobs that have been traditionally considered absolutely invulnerable to automation and IT will nonetheless be hit by productivity swells due to automation and lowered costs of information retrieval. Lawyers, for example, rely heavily on electronic databases (and would rely more heavily if they weren't retarded expensive, and I mean retarded expensive--you have no idea how unbelievably $%^$@%%ing expensive they are--I don't have a curse word to really convey how expensive they are... but presumably they will become less so). The end result of the process is that fewer lawyers will be needed, increasing competition among even such extremely highly educated folk as they. ()

This is without even getting into the prospects for expert systems and AI, which automate the mental work of the professional.

Eventually, we will reach a point where most types of human labor are as valueless as farming or basketweaving--obsolete jobs serving a barely viable market for archaic curiosities.

The types of human labor that will remain valuable will become so rarefied as to beyond the reach of most people. If the only labor the market requires are that of the physicist and engineer (and fewer of them), what is the sense in an "earn-your-keep" society? What shall the idiots do? Perhaps worse, what shall the truly intelligent, well-educated, and motivated but not skilled enough to be economically valuable do?

The replicator is just a magic allegory of the real transformative changes the economy is likely to undergo in the 21st century.

Or are we smarter than I believe, and will the question be delayed until the machines are smarter than any of us are?

Or maybe we'll just all have two hour work weeks and earn the PPP of five hundred dollars an hour. That'd be cool too.

But in answer to your question, Nerys...I'd think a good example was Bashir's father. It's worth noting that he was struggling a bit, experimenting with different realms of work...trying, and failing, over and over...until finally, it's implied that he's found a carrer that will be rewarding for him.

Prisoner?

 

[Rush Limborg]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

^Architect! And as Mr. Bashir made clear, he intended to make good on that opportunity. The previous faliures of his...simply made him try all the harder. Personally...I feel confident that he'll succeed--because he is a man willing to stand on his own two feet--learn from his mistakes--and fight to succeed.

Now...as to your other point...yes, certain industries were "destroyed"--but new ones were created in turn, and thus the work force was kept largely intact. This will always happen--even if automation "destroys" industries, new ones will be created that coincide with those innovations. The standard of living is rased--and in the end, everyone wins, with the exception of those who don't want to change.

As Larry the Liquidator would say:

"This company is dead. I didn't kill it--don't blame me.... It was dead when I got here! It's too late for prayers...for even if the prayers were answered, and a miracle occurred--and the yen did this, and the dollar did that, and the infrastructure did the other thing--we would still be dead!​

"You know why? Fiber optics...new technologies...obsolescence. We're dead alright. We're just not broke. And you know the surest way to go broke? Keep getting an increasing share of a shrinking market. Down the tubes...slow but sure.​

"You know, at one time there must've been dozens of companies makin' buggy whips. And I'll bet the last company around was the one that made the best buggy whip you ever saw! Now how would you have liked to have been a stockholder in that company?

"You invested in a business and this business is dead. Let's have the intelligence, let's have the decency to sign the death certificate, collect the insurance, and invest in something with a future...."​

"...Take the money--invest it somewhere else. Maybe...maybe you'll get lucky--and it'll be used productively. And if it is...you'll create new jobs, and provide a service for the economy--and God forbid, even make a few bucks for yourselves!"​

 

[Myasishchev]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

Ha, I actually watched that scene the other day. I forget why we watched it entirely, but it was to illustrate some point or other. Weird synchronicity, there.

That new economic horizons will be opened up is beyond question--the question, to my mind, is how involved the bulk of humanity will be, or even can be, in such endeavors.

Although Larry suggests a possible solution. A 99% automated economy could still work with neither poverty nor a dole, if people owned stakes in the corporations that owned the means of production. However, universality of such ownership is pretty improbable and there would likely remain a shareless class...

Genetic engineering is another ameliorative possibility. It has the same potential problems as stock ownership in Skynet (a self-perpetuating underclass), but would offer more affirmative human action in the economy than otherwise. Of course, this is right out in Star Trek, because Augments are the Devil.

You know, if I were being hunted to extinction by the normals, I'd probably steal a starship, slap women, and decompress people, too.

 

[Sci]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

^Architect! And as Mr. Bashir made clear, he intended to make good on that opportunity. The previous faliures of his...simply made him try all the harder. Personally...I feel confident that he'll succeed--because he is a man willing to stand on his own two feet--learn from his mistakes--and fight to succeed.

Now...as to your other point...yes, certain industries were "destroyed"--but new ones were created in turn, and thus the work force was kept largely intact. This will always happen--even if automation "destroys" industries, new ones will be created that coincide with those innovations. The standard of living is rased--and in the end, everyone wins, with the exception of those who don't want to change.

As Larry the Liquidator would say:

"This company is dead. I didn't kill it--don't blame me.... It was dead when I got here! It's too late for prayers...for even if the prayers were answered, and a miracle occurred--and the yen did this, and the dollar did that, and the infrastructure did the other thing--we would still be dead!​

"You know why? Fiber optics...new technologies...obsolescence. We're dead alright. We're just not broke. And you know the surest way to go broke? Keep getting an increasing share of a shrinking market. Down the tubes...slow but sure.​

"You know, at one time there must've been dozens of companies makin' buggy whips. And I'll bet the last company around was the one that made the best buggy whip you ever saw! Now how would you have liked to have been a stockholder in that company?

"You invested in a business and this business is dead. Let's have the intelligence, let's have the decency to sign the death certificate, collect the insurance, and invest in something with a future...."​

"...Take the money--invest it somewhere else. Maybe...maybe you'll get lucky--and it'll be used productively. And if it is...you'll create new jobs, and provide a service for the economy--and God forbid, even make a few bucks for yourselves!"​

And what would Larry say you do when there just aren't any jobs out there anymore because everything is automated? What do you do if there just aren't enough jobs available on the market to employ the majority of people?

 

[Penta]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

In any universe but Star Trek?

Luddites arise and destroy the machines.

I'm serious.

 

[Myasishchev]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

They kinda do in Star Trek. AI is hated only slightly less than genetically engineered "superhumans." Although at least there are rational bases for the fears with the AIs they have to deal with... V'Ger, NOMAD, Norman, M-5, etc...

 

[Rush Limborg]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

^Architect! And as Mr. Bashir made clear, he intended to make good on that opportunity. The previous faliures of his...simply made him try all the harder. Personally...I feel confident that he'll succeed--because he is a man willing to stand on his own two feet--learn from his mistakes--and fight to succeed.

Now...as to your other point...yes, certain industries were "destroyed"--but new ones were created in turn, and thus the work force was kept largely intact. This will always happen--even if automation "destroys" industries, new ones will be created that coincide with those innovations. The standard of living is rased--and in the end, everyone wins, with the exception of those who don't want to change.

As Larry the Liquidator would say:

"This company is dead. I didn't kill it--don't blame me.... It was dead when I got here! It's too late for prayers...for even if the prayers were answered, and a miracle occurred--and the yen did this, and the dollar did that, and the infrastructure did the other thing--we would still be dead!​

"You know why? Fiber optics...new technologies...obsolescence. We're dead alright. We're just not broke. And you know the surest way to go broke? Keep getting an increasing share of a shrinking market. Down the tubes...slow but sure.​

"You know, at one time there must've been dozens of companies makin' buggy whips. And I'll bet the last company around was the one that made the best buggy whip you ever saw! Now how would you have liked to have been a stockholder in that company?​

"You invested in a business and this business is dead. Let's have the intelligence, let's have the decency to sign the death certificate, collect the insurance, and invest in something with a future...."​

"...Take the money--invest it somewhere else. Maybe...maybe you'll get lucky--and it'll be used productively. And if it is...you'll create new jobs, and provide a service for the economy--and God forbid, even make a few bucks for yourselves!"​

And what would Larry say you do when there just aren't any jobs out there anymore because everything is automated? What do you do if there just aren't enough jobs available on the market to employ the majority of people?

Who says that's how it is?

Even if everything is automated, there are still jobs to pursue.

After all, machines break down. There must be engineers to work on those things.

There are also more "cultured jobs"--architacture (as mentioned), the arts, etc.

There are still restaurants.

The point is...no matter how technology affects our lives, the market will find a way. The technology which automates everything raises the standard of living...for all, just as the computer did.

The complete automation you propose will do the same--and the market will still be intact. Oh, it will certainly be of a far different vision than we are used to--but the market will survive, as it survived the radical changes of the computer age.

 

[Sci]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

Who says that's how it is?

Even if everything is automated, there are still jobs to pursue.

Yeah, but that's not the point. The point is, what if there aren't enough jobs to keep the vast majority of the populace employed? What do you do if automation has reached the point where there are only jobs available for about 25-35% of the populace at any given time?

The point is...no matter how technology affects our lives, the market will find a way.

Will it?

The technology which automates everything raises the standard of living...for all, just as the computer did.

Spoken like someone who didn't grow up in a community devastated by the loss of industrial jobs due to a combination of automation and outsourcing.

The market certainly didn't find a way in my hometown; we have 14% reported unemployment. God only knows how much actual unemployment and underemployment there is.