Voyager: The Borg

[Withers]

There are many schools of thought when it comes to the Borg on Voyager.

A very common complaint is that the Voyager era Borg were overused. Another common complaint is that they were "powered down." Yet another issue fans have is The Borg Queen herself (and whether or not First Contact screwed Voyager by adding her to the line up.)

Well, if the Voyager Borg were overused how might they have been used better? My opinion is they should've been put in an arc over an entire season which would include species 8472 rather than the recurring villain they turned out to be. I especially didn't like their appearance in the final episode.

That the Borg were powered down is excused (by at least one person I know ) by the fact that Voyager was alone with no Federation support. I think if they had been used in the right way this wouldn't have been a factor. Since they decided to do what they did with the Borg, where they'd appear one episode at a time (two at most), I guess I can understand why they were powered down. That doesn't excuse it though. If they were going to make them so ineffectual they should have stopped using them sooner. When they finished the episode where Voyager takes on a Tactical Cube (a Voyager invention no less) and wins (by even holding her own in a fire fight) the writers should have looked at each other and said "WTF did we just do?"

The Borg Queen: I liked her and I think First Contact needed her. I think Voyager needed her too. Look at that first encounter with the Borg, with Janeway talking to the big empty green screen. Now look at the scenes of Janeway holding that big ass gun pointed at the Queen. Which is better? I understand the issue of them re-writing what it was the Borg essentially were but the final product was more watchable than it would've been otherwise.


So... thoughts on Voyager and the Borg?​

 

[Deks]

It wasn't really watchable for me.
They rewrote the Borg and introduced a leader because they felt people have to connect somehow to the characters and the show.

They are just insulting people's intelligence.
The Borg got dumbed down with the use of the Queen to be frank.

Although, despite the queen's appearance, Voyager barely got out of their each encounter with the Borg.

 

[kimc]

I think they (along with time travel) were overused. Yes, being in the delta quadrant it was expected that Voyager would run into them but it didn't need to be every other week.

 

[Navaros]

I suggest the Borg could have been done better by having them totally mangle Voyager week after week in a continuous story arc, killing tons of crew members who we never see on-screen in other episodes, and also killing a couple of the main characters for a season finale (it's not like VOY needed most of its main characters anyhow).

Voyager wouldn't defeat them, rather they would defeat Voyager. Voyager would survive by just barely escaping.

Also, I would expound the damage by the Borg by having shady aliens come by and exploit Voyager as easy pickings due to damage Voyager has sustained by the Borg. In other words, I'd make sure the Borg damage led Voyager into tons of dramatic situations that they could only enter into as a result of being in really bad shape.

 

[tvih]

The problem I see with what Navaros is suggesting... It'd turn into 2012. As in the disaster movie. What I mean by this is that too much of that is bad for suspension of disbelief. Just like it doesn't make sense that in 2012 the planet is literally collapsing just behind their heels all the time, it doesn't feel right if the ship is constantly about to roll over yet manages to limp away every damn time.

A moderate about of getting pounded is a good thing though, but all things in moderation indeed.

 

[Withers]

I think the "Voyager pounding" only had to happen, in regards to the Borg, once. It couldn't be that every time they encountered the Borg they got their asses handed to them and the ship was nearly destroyed.

But, had they done the Borg in an arc similar to the way the Xindi arc was done, they could have had the ship come to the point of destruction only to be repaired post-arc by some friendly species or parts taken from the Equinox. (There are dozens of ways to repair the ship but, unlike what was common for the, whatever it was would need to be mentioned.)

The problem was that Voyager was never sufficiently damaged. Year of Hell was cool in that we got see what it looked like when a ship went to warp with compromised structural integrity. We also got to see what the deflector is actually good for and what it looks like when a deck explodes. They went so far that they had to do a reset, obviously, but the effect of seeing Voyager get hammered was a good one. They never really did that with the Borg seemingly because they assumed we needed to see the ship in pristine condition at the opening of every single episode.


(Seriously, not gonna merge these?)


-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

If VOY got a "pounding" from the Borg, they wouldn't be badly damaged they'd be DEAD. They would NOT "barely escape" without some kind of deus ex machina the audience would hate, and they couldn't afford to lose any of the crew otherwise the ship is unworkable. And if did ever get that damaged, they'd NEVER be able to repair it thus stranding them in the DQ forever. That's not "better drama", it's just stupidity. We should know better than to listen to Navaros by now.

It's the same reason they didn't do YoH for real: they'd NEVER be able to fix the ship from all that to the point it could take them back home.

 

[Withers]

I don't understand why these are two threads still (It's seriously ridiculous to go back and forth) but whatever, as long as I don't throw out any 1st grade level insults I guess it's cool.

Anwar, whatever your personal opinions of Enterprise might be, they managed to have an amazing episode called Damaged. The ship has been rendered practically useless with the exception of life support. It was engaging wondering just how they were going to get out of it. The way they were actually stopped from being destroyed made sense.

Now, if we were to take your mockery of an interpretation about the premise seriously, I could see how it might be a problem to damage the ship in any significant way. However I don't. So it wouldn't have been. We're talking about a Federation Starship (whose primary purpose is to seek out new life and new civilizations) commanded by a very Federation Captain; if she couldn't broker a deal for parts and repairs no one could.

I don't think it had to go as far as YoH or Damage but Voyager was never any more critically damaged by the Borg than they were any other villain of the week. In fact the Hirogen did more damage to Voyager than all their encounters with the Borg combined.


-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

Damaged didn't involve the ENT crew going up against the Borg.

Well, I guess no one could then because the premise wouldn't have allowed it. Of course by S3 the Hatedom was already out to get the show so I guess abandoning that part of the premise would hardly make them hate the show MORE since they already did...

Like I said, critical damages could never be fixed which would mean the end of the show. The Hirogen managing to do that was probably why the audience hated them.

 

[Withers]

Damaged didn't involve the ENT crew going up against the Borg.

Really? C'mon, don't be dense, you know what I meant; it's a situation where our heroes are hopelessly outgunned. That's the point of the reference.

Of course by S3 the Hatedom was already out to get the show so I guess abandoning that part of the premise would hardly make them hate the show MORE since they already did...

::sighs::

Alright, we're discussing the premise in a different thread, so I'll just leave that out of this for the sake of going a different route.

"The hatedom?" We aren't TOSers. There were problems with the show that could've been made better with what they had.

Let's assume the premise is "Make a cake." They made a cake. We're telling them that if they'd used sugar it probably would have tasted better. You're saying they made a cake and, regardless of what they used, it was going to taste like shit. That hardly qualifies us (meaning anyone else you've debated with in this thread) as "hatedom." I'll also mention this- the first few seasons of the show were pretty damn weak. That's a critique that's true of every incarnation of Trek. They're all shaky at first. So, yeah, I'm sure there are people who left after season two and determined that the show was crap. I'm sure it happened to the others too. Suggesting that making it better would make anybody like it less is... well, c'mon, that's just silly.


-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

I'm saying that even if they used sugar, then the audience would've just either said it was too sweet or now it needed vanilla flavoring or something: Nothing would ever be good enough to get them say "okay, this is a good cake".

I'm saying it no longer mattered what they did by S2 (or hell, the freaking premiere), the audience had already decided what they felt about the show and nothing would ever change that opinion (and to this day, nothing has).

 

[Withers]

I'm saying that even if they used sugar, then the audience would've just either said it was too sweet or now it needed vanilla flavoring or something: Nothing would ever be good enough to get them say "okay, this is a good cake".

Your point is that no matter what they did everyone would have hated it. I can't prove that isn't true. What I can say is that had they made it executed what they had differently I, personally, would have liked it more than I did. If I can see the problems with it, as a fan of anything Trek, its inconceivable to me that they couldn't (or, under your explanation of the chain of events, that they ignored the fact.)

I'm saying it no longer mattered what they did by S2 (or hell, the freaking premiere), the audience had already decided what they felt about the show and nothing would ever change that opinion (and to this day, nothing has).

What, pray tell, is your reasoning behind Voyager getting seven seasons in that case? Why didn't it get the axe like Enterprise did?


-Withers-​

 

[Neutral Zone]

I agree that the Borg were overused, infact to the point where they lost the plot. But at least were a formidable enemy in their time!

 

[Anwar]

VOY got seven seasons because UPN was relying on it as their flagship show, and it still got decent enough ratings to keep going (the hatedom grew in power while the show was on, until it was strong enough to finally get a show canceled in the form of ENT)

And yes, you got it perfectly. It didn't matter WHAT they did in terms of how the show was done, nothing would ever appease the hatedom. You can say all you want about "execution", but they'd have just hated the show regardless of how it was executed.

Well, that's not true. If the Kazon were uber-warlords of the Delta Quadrant, the Vidiian Phage was some massive plague that annihilated most Delta Quadrant life and infected the entire crew ensuring they were suffering eternally, the Borg/8472 war was the series plot from the first episode of the series to the finale 7 years later, the Hirogen was a single character capable of defeating 150 Starfleet personnel,the Krenim were popping in and out of every season constantly screwing with history, the show was some serialized mess where you couldn't miss 10 seconds of one episode or the entire show would be ruined, the crew discarding all morality and becoming all "Mad Max" in space while going around destroying planets for fun THEN the show might've met some approval from someone...

 

[Withers]

(the hatedom grew in power while the show was on, until it was strong enough to finally get a show canceled in the form of ENT)

...what? I'm sorry I can't discern any sense in that statement without some...clarification.

And yes, you got it perfectly. It didn't matter WHAT they did in terms of how the show was done, nothing would ever appease the hatedom. You can say all you want about "execution", but they'd have just hated the show regardless of how it was executed.

What you're trying to tell me is that even if they'd made it better I still wouldn't have liked it (which is just crazy). You're telling me I (as the most vocal critic of the show I know) wouldn't have been satisfied no matter what they did in spite of the fact that I have pointed out no less than a dozen ways I could easily have my criticisms of certain elements appeased. You are, in effect, telling me that if they'd made a better show I wouldn't have liked it any more than I did based on my disliking certain elements for what I'm now imagining you perceive as completely illegitimate reasons. That's a very gutsy statement friend.

Well, that's not true. If the Kazon were uber-warlords of the Delta Quadrant, the Vidiian Phage was some massive plague that annihilated most Delta Quadrant life, the Borg/8472 war wasn't the series plot from the first episode of the series to the finale 7 years later, the Hirogen was a single character capable of defeating 150 Starfleet personnel,the Krenim were popping in and out of every season constantly screwing with history, the show was some serialized mess where you couldn't miss 10 seconds of one episode or the entire show would be ruined, the crew discarding all morality and becoming all "Mad Max" in space while going around destroying planets for fun THEN the show might've met some approval from someone...

The show met approval from a lot of people. The show has specific, justifiable criticisms against, and you can't seem to wrap your mind around the fact. They didn't have to abandon and re-write the whole thing to make it better/acceptable. And nothing in Trek is immune to critiques so this idea that Voyager is somehow unfairly "persecuted" can be flushed along with all the other bunk that goes in a toilet.




-Withers-​

 

[RyuRoots]

VOY got seven seasons because UPN was relying on it as their flagship show, and it still got decent enough ratings to keep going (the hatedom grew in power while the show was on, until it was strong enough to finally get a show canceled in the form of ENT)

And yes, you got it perfectly. It didn't matter WHAT they did in terms of how the show was done, nothing would ever appease the hatedom. You can say all you want about "execution", but they'd have just hated the show regardless of how it was executed.

Well, that's not true. If the Kazon were uber-warlords of the Delta Quadrant, the Vidiian Phage was some massive plague that annihilated most Delta Quadrant life, the Borg/8472 war wasn't the series plot from the first episode of the series to the finale 7 years later, the Hirogen was a single character capable of defeating 150 Starfleet personnel,the Krenim were popping in and out of every season constantly screwing with history, the show was some serialized mess where you couldn't miss 10 seconds of one episode or the entire show would be ruined, the crew discarding all morality and becoming all "Mad Max" in space while going around destroying planets for fun THEN the show might've met some approval from someone...

I would love to meet just a few of these insanely rabid haters that you go on and on about. Not that you actually know any. You were pressed to name some before, and it's not like you could.

As for your thoughts on what they could've done to meet approval...I'm sorry, but you are truly an idiot if you think that. Please look up the term "middle ground", because you clearly have no earthly idea what it is.

 

[Anwar]

VOY-haters mostly keep whining the show should've been exactly like NuBSG or DS9. That paragraph I wrote over how VOY could've met approval pretty much gives us a VOY that was NuBSG or DS9 and JUST LIKE I SAID it still isn't enough to get anyone to like the show.

It's just no-win for VOY, in EVERYTHING.

 

[RyuRoots]

VOY-haters mostly keep whining the show should've been exactly like NuBSG or DS9. That paragraph I wrote over how VOY could've met approval pretty much gives us a VOY that was NuBSG or DS9 and JUST LIKE I SAID it still isn't enough to get anyone to like the show.

It's just no-win for VOY, in EVERYTHING.

Again, who are these voy-haters? Tell me. I want to know. It's always "haters, haters, haters, waaaaah" and "they".

And no one wanted that! People who watched the show wanted somewhere in between those two extremes. Okay, you didn't go look it up, so I"ll spell it out for you. This is what middle ground means: between two extremes instead of taking an extreme. You take the OPPOSITE extreme, and people didn't want that either. And just for the record, that's far darker than DS9 EVER was.

 

[Withers]

I would love to meet just a few of these insanely rabid haters that you go on and on about. Not that you actually know any. You were pressed to name some before, and it's not like you could

As would I. Where are these people that hate the show so much? I'd love to be on the opposite side of an illegitimate complaint against Voyager. So where are they?

As for your thoughts on what they could've done to meet approval...I'm sorry, but you are truly an idiot if you think that. Please look up the term "middle ground", because you clearly have no earthly idea what it is.

I have to concur; this idea that its either just the way it was or absolutely 100% different is the lazy, addle minded thinking that makes conversations like this one very difficult. (Maybe that'll finally get the attention of someone who can merge this topic with its identical twin.)

It's just no-win for VOY, in EVERYTHING.

Seriously dude, get off the cross, there are people who need the wood.


-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

Well, a lot of them just left the Fandom/Hatedom entirely when they heard about ENT being announced since the idea disgusted them to the point they couldn't stand Trek anymore. The rest either stick to the TOS-only group, the DS9 group and NuBSG.

And yes, they do just complain that it should've been the darkest Trek ever with few-to-no spots of hope (or hope that appears just to die) in the the dark extreme. That outline I gave, they would've eaten up. That you still hate it just shows that I was right about how even darkening VOY wouldn't make anyone like it.