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My jaw hit the floor so hard, it may never recover

Saito S

Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
First off: To those who haven't read the Destiny trilogy, back away now, since there will no doubt be major SPOILERS in this thread (hell, in this post).

Now that that's out of the way... WOW.

Finished Lost Souls a couple of nights ago, and my goodness, am I impressed. Floored, really. By far the best Borg story to come out of any incarnation of Trek (well, Greater Than the Sum was awfully good too, hrm...), and more than that, just superbly written. The way everything slowly built and built and built, with little threads running between the various plotlines... then suddenly, without me really realizing it had happened, everything was solidly connected, moving toward the huge, epic events of the latter half of book III.

And the reveal of the origin of the Borg! That was pure brilliance. Took me by surprise, too; once we returned to the other city, with Kiona, Graylock, the MACOs, and the few Caeliar that survived the much rougher ride into the far past, I figured that SOMETHING would happen with them to really tie them into the main plot before the end of the story, but not THIS. That moment, when Greylock is fighting against Sedin, and he thinks "I won't become a cy- *huge line break*


-borg."
Right there, I realized what we were seeing, what we were about to see, and I literally gasped. Once that scene was over, I had to put the book down for about ten minutes, while I paced around my apartment going "holyshitholyshitholyshitholyshit". :lol: Such an awesome way to tie everything together, and a great concept for the origin of the Borg. And! Dunno if Mack had this in mind (actually, I rather doubt it), but being able to trace it all back to Sedin actually fixes what I always perceived as a flaw in the overall Borg story: the concept of a single Borg Queen (an idea I was NEVER all that happy with, dating back to First Contact). Makes a hell of a lot more sense now.

And the other head-spinning, "wait WHAT" (in a good way, that is) moment: when Hernandez says - of how the Caeliar will stop the Borg - that they are going to assimilate them. ASSIMILATE THE BORG! I love it!

The political stuff with Bacco was excellent, as were the scenes with Martok (though those were fairly brief, overall... but that's fine, the scenes got across what the needed to). And the character interactions were fantastic for the most part. And MY GOD does David Mack know how to depress you. From the final scenes with T'Lana, or zh'Thane, to Tuvok's son and his wife, to the sacrifice of the USS Ranger, to others that I'm probably forgetting at the moment... ouch, man.

Oh, and though (I assume, at least) the idea to have Ezri be a captain with her own ship wasn't entirely Mack's, Destiny is the first material I've read that has this version of Ezri in it, and I loved every minute of it. She's always been one of my favorite Trek characters, and to see her shine this way was wonderful (and he also managed to add a lot of depth to her character as a captain with scenes like the one between her and Bowers in the gym).

And given how much I disliked Enterprise, I was surprised to find how much I liked everything with the Columbia.

Weaknesses: the Titan... eh. I love Riker, but there is something about most of the crew that just leaves me feeling meh. I don't hate them, really (though Melora irritates the hell out of me, as she did in the actual DS9 episode), they just don't interest me the way the Enterprise or Aventine crew do. Still, the Titan stuff did get steadily better as the trilogy wore on. And of course, my "meh" attitude toward Titan isn't JUST a reflection on how they written BY Mack, since I had the same reaction to what I've read of the actual Titan series.

Other than that, there were really only two things: one was a severe over-abundance of exploding control consoles. Seriously, this is one Trek "tradition" that should never have been allowed to become as widespread as it has, and it makes me cringe every time. And for all the book's strengths, whenever the Enterprise or Aventine got into the tiniest scuffle, BAM! Console explosion, almost immediately.

The other was the whole Hirogen battle. This was, I felt, the weakest single chapter of the entire trilogy, by far. Not only did it feel like it was just added simply to chew up time, but I had a myriad of problems with the particulars of how the battle went (not the space battle, but once the Hirogen have boarded the Starfleet ships). I won't list them all now, because this post is already huge, but perhaps in a later post if this discussion gets going (and in the unlikely event that anyone actually expresses interest in hearing the specifics :D).

All in all, though, the good in these books is so overwhelming that it nearly suffocates those flaws into complete irrelevance (pun intended). I dunno if David Mack ever reads or posts in these forums (as some of the TrekLit authors do), but just in case he does: great big kudos for writing the best Borg story, and one of the best Trek stories of any kind, that I've ever experienced.
 
I just finished the Destiny books as well, and Saito S mirrors most of my thoughts on the trilogy.

In particular, I was blown away by the chapters about the Columbia's crew and MACOs. I detest ENT, so I was amazed at how engaging those chapters turned out to be. The parts of the books that focused on Hernandez were probably my favorite parts, barely edging out the amazing bits we had on the Enterprise and Aventine.

In particular, I fought tears when I read that 40ish-page chapter in Mere Mortals where Hernandez watches as every human she has left in her little world dies all around her, despite her best efforts and despite what she wishes she could do. When I finished it, I thought "jeez, this is seriously depressing", but I realized it just meant it was THAT well-written, that the characters had that much impact on me and I really felt for Erika Hernandez.

The trilogy is definitely what I'd call an epic story, and the conflict with the Borg is the most gripping one yet. There are tons of "holy shit!" moments. In additions to the one Saito S mentioned, I had that kind of reaction when Chakotay mentions that the Borg armada just RAMMED them, steamrolled right through. And then you find out how many there are.

The battles, the character interactions, the way this huge story unfolded, it was all brilliant. I, as well, am amazed at how brilliantly-crafted the origin of the Borg is. In addition to being ingeniously creative, it makes the arrogant, more downright villainish Queen make so much more sense, being the representation of these things in Sedin that hadn't faded over time even after the reasons for them had.

As one of many personal favorites, one of the most poignant scenes in the book was the beautifully, tastefully understated but very tragic delivery from Tuvok:
"I can see no logic in this, T'Pel. My son is dead."

The only downside I have other than the ones stated by Saito S is what I feel to be an overuse of the word Imzadi. Every time Troi or Riker come up for each other, it's Imzadi this, Imzadi that, every single time.

But really, it's a fantastic trilogy that was well worth the cajoling and coaxing it took to get me into Star Trek novels at all.
 
Glad you both enjoyed the trilogy so thoroughly, despite whatever quibbles you each had with it (after all, no book is ever truly perfect, and what works for one person will bore another, etc.). Thanks for stopping by to share your comments — after the last seven days I've had, this was a welcome tonic. :)
 
I'm reminded of my posts, when I finished the trilogy several months ago :lol:

Yeah, they're goddamn great. I can't wait to see the Aventine crew again; Kedair is one of my favorite TrekLit characters so far, and Ezri works perfectly as a captain.
 
Glad you both enjoyed the trilogy so thoroughly, despite whatever quibbles you each had with it (after all, no book is ever truly perfect, and what works for one person will bore another, etc.). Thanks for stopping by to share your comments — after the last seven days I've had, this was a welcome tonic. :)
Geh, bad week? I know what that's like.

And thanks for taking the time to respond. Not often that one gets to read an amazing book, go rave about it on a message board, then have the actual author show up and reply. It's a cool feeling. :D
 
David Mack's Twitter said:
There's nothing like being told that one is utterly expendable to help get those creative juices flowing. 22:24:13

Yowch; bad week indeed. I hope that was for some other job and not Trek, because as far as I'm concerned, after Destiny, you're irreplaceable.
 
David Mack's Twitter said:
There's nothing like being told that one is utterly expendable to help get those creative juices flowing. 22:24:13

Yowch; bad week indeed. I hope that was for some other job and not Trek, because as far as I'm concerned, after Destiny, you're irreplaceable.
Oh damn. That sucks. :(

Agreed on the irreplaceable comment, tho.

And hey! Thrawn! Where've you been hiding yourself, man!?

Oh, wait... that wasn't you that disappeared from the TrekLit forum, that was me. :D

You might not even remember me (I was a comrade-in-arms - or, if you prefer, "fellow crazy person", for getting myself involved in the thing - in some of those ridiculous, gigantic threads about the *ahem* "Janeway incident" in Before Dishonor). I kinda stopped posting here, cause I felt I had said all I could say about Trek books without, well, reading more of them. And sometime after that, I kinda backed off from Trek in general for quite a while. But lately, I've found a renewed interest, and have blazed through a huge chunk of the DS9 relaunch, and of course just finished Destiny a few days ago. It's been a hell of a ride, haha.

So how've you been?
 
Oh, I remember, I promise :)

I'm just glad Full Circle lived up to all that argument.

I'm on my 165th Trek book, about halfway through the list of all the ones that seem interesting to me, after just under 2 years of reading them. I imagine I'll be around a while...
 
No, I can safely say that the "expendable" comment was in no way related to my work for Star Trek. All the editors at Simon & Schuster have been consistently gracious and professional in their dealings with me, for which I am grateful.
 
No, I can safely say that the "expendable" comment was in no way related to my work for Star Trek. All the editors at Simon & Schuster have been consistently gracious and professional in their dealings with me, for which I am grateful.

That's good to hear. Personally, I'm hoping you have a long and extremely productive working relationship with the folks at Pocket. :lol:
 
In particular, I fought tears when I read that 40ish-page chapter in Mere Mortals where Hernandez watches as every human she has left in her little world dies all around her, despite her best efforts and despite what she wishes she could do. When I finished it, I thought "jeez, this is seriously depressing", but I realized it just meant it was THAT well-written, that the characters had that much impact on me and I really felt for Erika Hernandez.

The scene where Hernandez looks around at the Caeliar going about their business (and ignoring her) and feels disorientated, isolated, alone, (this is just prior to her suicide attempt) is perfect. The writing captured that sense of dislocation and alienation so well, and communicated the emotional atmosphere so powerfully, that I count it one of the best I've read in Trek lit:). I've had times where I feel simply...phased out...and everything seems distant and distorted, and I was amazed at how truly Mack represented it in the novel.
 
Saito S, you're back!!

I'd been wondering about you -- hadn't seen you any place since the (ahem) Janeway Affair (wow, does that sound wrong), and wondered if Lynx or somebody had scared you off. I'm really happy to see you back here, and especially to know that you enjoyed the Destiny trilogy, which I really feel has set a new gold standard for Trek fiction (especially 24th century Trek fiction). I agree with you that the book was amazing, and that the notion of the Borg being dealt with through assimilation was a master stroke on David's part. I had the same reaction to the Columbia stuff that you did--not having been a fan (or, eventually, even a viewer) of Enterprise, I found myself pleasantly surprised by how much I enjoyed Hernandez and her crew. I do disagree, though, about the Titan: I liked those parts of the story a lot, and thinking back on it, I really do need to catch up on my Titan reading.

So yeah, good to have you back here. One semi-OT question, though, at the risk of Going There: have you read Kirsten Beyer's Voyager books yet, and if so, did you like them?

And to David: really sorry you're having a tough time of it lately--speaking as someone for whom the last two or three years were the worst in my life, I can identify. I hope things get better, and I really hope to see another book or dozen from you soon.
 
I think you were wise to read C. Bennett's Greater than the Sum as a prequel.

Now you can read KRAD's book as a sequel, A Singular Destiny. You'll get all the Martok you need. He's the one for Klingons, obviously. :)

Wm. Leisner's book, Losing the Peace, is also a good sequel as it asks and answers an important question, now what?
 
I actually just started Losing the Peace, and I'm very happy to have a continuation out of the craziness that the UFP is left to deal with in the wake of the Borg invasion. Speaking of which, I think it's impressive how seamless the transition from Greater than the Sum, to Destiny, to Losing the Peace is.
 
Though it may just seem like a corny bandwagon hop at this point, I want to echo the sentiments of others here and say that I hope things improve for you soon, David.
That's good to hear. Personally, I'm hoping you have a long and extremely productive working relationship with the folks at Pocket. :lol:
Seconded!
I'm on my 165th Trek book, about halfway through the list of all the ones that seem interesting to me, after just under 2 years of reading them. I imagine I'll be around a while...
:eek: Man, I'm not sure if I've even read 165 BOOKS, of any kind! :lol:
The scene where Hernandez looks around at the Caeliar going about their business (and ignoring her) and feels disorientated, isolated, alone, (this is just prior to her suicide attempt) is perfect. The writing captured that sense of dislocation and alienation so well, and communicated the emotional atmosphere so powerfully, that I count it one of the best I've read in Trek lit:). I've had times where I feel simply...phased out...and everything seems distant and distorted, and I was amazed at how truly Mack represented it in the novel.
Agreed, that was something I forgot to mention in my initial post, as was the slow loss of her three human friends that RyuRoots mentioned (see, I knew I'd forget stuff, there was just too much awesome). And that made me think of another great moment: after she is altered by Inyx, and she's flying around and reveling in her newfound freedom, only to stop and realize that she may have just made herself more firmly a prisoner of the Caeliar than she ever had been as a "regular" human. Chilling.
Saito S, you're back!!
Indeed! My return is at hand!!

*waits for applause... hears crickets chirping*

Erm... moving on.
I'd been wondering about you -- hadn't seen you any place since the (ahem) Janeway Affair (wow, does that sound wrong), and wondered if Lynx or somebody had scared you off.
Ha! Nope, not quite. If my most recent posting trends are any indication (not this thread, obviously, but a couple threads in the Voyager forum), arguing with someone whose position is EXTREMELY unlikely to change is not something I tend to shy away from. :lol: As I mentioned above, it was more a matter of feeling like I had nothing to say, since I'd only read a few books, and then backing off from Trek in general for quite a while. Now that I've finished the DS9 relaunch through Unity, and have read Destiny, I felt like I actually had something worthwhile to contribute. :D

I'm really happy to see you back here, and especially to know that you enjoyed the Destiny trilogy, which I really feel has set a new gold standard for Trek fiction (especially 24th century Trek fiction).
Good to be back! And yeah, I agree on both counts. Well... ok, technically, I can't really agree (or disagree) on it setting a new standard for "especially 24th century Trek fiction", in comparison to non-24th century Trek books, since I don't read any Trek fiction that ISN'T 24th century stuff.
So yeah, good to have you back here. One semi-OT question, though, at the risk of Going There: have you read Kirsten Beyer's Voyager books yet, and if so, did you like them?
I haven't, though I might. I had been seriously considering picking up Full Circle, though I never got around to it (since I knew I would wait to read it until after reading Destiny, and I had already decided to not read Destiny until reaching Unity in the DS9-r, and THEN suddenly finding myself taking a break from Trek lit after Mission Gamma book one... I decided there was no rush to buy it. :lol:) Once I'm finished with the books on my shelf, I may just grab it.
I think you were wise to read C. Bennett's Greater than the Sum as a prequel.
Well, I decided a while ago that I wasn't going to go back and read all of the TNG relaunch books leading up to that, but I had read Before Dishonor, and wanted to at least see what happened with the rest of that story. I picked up BD partially on a whim. After not paying much attention to Trek books since forever ago (read a few of the "episodic" style books from the nineties, and just could not get into them at all), it was reading bits about the Destiny trilogy that got me curious about the relaunches and other stuff set post DS9. "Borg invasion?? Wait, what??"
Now you can read KRAD's book as a sequel, A Singular Destiny. You'll get all the Martok you need. He's the one for Klingons, obviously. :)

Wm. Leisner's book, Losing the Peace, is also a good sequel as it asks and answers an important question, now what?
Planning on reading both of those (already bought 'em), though I've decided to finish up the books I have from the DS9 relaunch first (namely, the three "Worlds" books and Warpath). Then, even though it would be chronologically backwards, I thought I'd read A Singular Destiny followed by Losing the Peace, since that was the publishing order as far as I'm aware. (Incidentally, if anyone has a compelling case for reading those two books in chronological order instead, now's the time). Beyond that...

I love DS9, and I've loved the relaunch so far. But... I hate the mirror universe. Really, I just loathe it. Always have. :rommie: So eh... not sure if I'm gonna bother with Fearful Symmetry or The Soul Key. We'll see. My main interest right now, going forward, is definitely on stories about what happens to the Federation and those around them as they continue to move on after the events of Destiny. (The fact that this timeframe - the early-mid 2380's - comprises what would be my backstory/history for my own Trek story ideas, which are set in the 2390's, might have something to do with this). And I would LOVE an Aventine series. I'd pick that up in a heartbeat. :D
 
...I thought I'd read A Singular Destiny followed by Losing the Peace, since that was the publishing order as far as I'm aware. (Incidentally, if anyone has a compelling case for reading those two books in chronological order instead, now's the time).

Nope. That's the order I did, actually, First Liesner's book then KRAD's. It worked perfectly for me.
 
Doesn't really matter. There's a surprise revealed in ASD that the epilogue to LTP spoils, but since that same surprise forms the title for the miniseries coming at the end of this year, I think the cat's pretty much out of the bag on that one.
 
Saito S great post.. I too was in shock. Shock that it was so good. So impressive a revealing of the Borg origin, so compelling.. I really would never have expected it to all hang together in such an intelligent and original way. I loved it.

I also loved the story of the Columbian survivors lives on the planet, sad and realistic, you could feel the years passing for them. So very well done.

Full Circle I wasn't so keen on.. too emo for me (and I by emo I mean the emotional scenes were not actually convincing like they were in Destiny). However I thought it ended very well and made me very excited to see what would happen to Voyager on this mission! I just got Unworthy in the post yesterday and am very much looking fwd to it.
 
And a personal thank you to David Mack for including that little scene with T'Ryssa peppering Hernandez with questions. ;)

It was really cute, and perfectly in-character. I can understand not giving her all that much to do in these books compared to Greater than the Sum, but it was nice to have her a bit here. After Greater than the Sum, she has become one of my favorite characters in all of Trekdom.

Speaking of characters, I also really liked Dr. Ree, who I have affectionately dubbed "dino-doctor". I haven't read any of the Titan books yet, but I loved how he came across in these.
 
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