DS9 made me like The Ferengi more
- Thread starter John200
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It sure turned the Ferengi into much more of a comedy relief.
I love Quark. I wish they'd given him more serious stuff to do, like his role in the Occupation arc.
Somewhat. There were many hilarious Ferengi plots and sub-plots across the series; however, it the Ferengi were presented better in DS9 than originally in TNG. Any time Brunt was involved, I knew it would be a great episode. Also, when Quark had to pull some fast accounting games on the Klingons and give a presentation had me heartily laughing.
Withers
Captain
I liked Quark. I tolerated Rom. I didn't dislike Nog (only the fact that a cadet was in Ops/On the bridge of the Defiant so often) and Jeffery Combs rocks my world so Brunt was fine too.
The Grand Nagus... I just can't stand his voice. He's right there with Neelix and early season Janeway as far as that goes but he's worse than the two of them combined. The episodes where he was the feature are my least favorite in the DS9 catalog. Still, I liked that DS9 explored their culture and went into more detail with them than had previously been done- especially given the fact that they didn't have to do so.
A lot of people thought of Miles as the "everyman" of the show but in my head he was the "everyman... for the Federation." Quark was more true to what I thought of as an "every day sort of 24th century" kind of guy. I think that was exemplified in the episode where he compares the Federation and RootBeer in a conversation with Garak (who is equally awesome in that scene.)
-Withers-
The Grand Nagus... I just can't stand his voice. He's right there with Neelix and early season Janeway as far as that goes but he's worse than the two of them combined. The episodes where he was the feature are my least favorite in the DS9 catalog. Still, I liked that DS9 explored their culture and went into more detail with them than had previously been done- especially given the fact that they didn't have to do so.
A lot of people thought of Miles as the "everyman" of the show but in my head he was the "everyman... for the Federation." Quark was more true to what I thought of as an "every day sort of 24th century" kind of guy. I think that was exemplified in the episode where he compares the Federation and RootBeer in a conversation with Garak (who is equally awesome in that scene.)
-Withers-
Well, the TNG Ferengi and the DS9 Ferengi barely seemed like the same people. Without the makeup and some superficial behavioural characteristics you wouldn't think they were actually meant to be the same. But yeah, I liked the DS9 Ferengi a lot more; for whatever that's worth.
I liked Quark, but that's probably about it. At times, DS9 made the Ferengi look like total buffoons, and it makes me wonder how the Ferengi established themselves as a major political power.
TBH, I prefer TNG's approach... Maybe not in the way they were introduced, but later in the series they were made out to be space pirates. They weren't exactly what you would call tactical geniuses, but they weren't that stupid either.
TBH, I prefer TNG's approach... Maybe not in the way they were introduced, but later in the series they were made out to be space pirates. They weren't exactly what you would call tactical geniuses, but they weren't that stupid either.
Those who are masters at business and finance can wield great political power. The Ferengi do that quite well.
^ Sure, they're an economic powerhouse, but then they have their own colony worlds, a large fleet of powerful D'Kora's that can even threaten large Federation starships. Obviously, they must be smarter than they appear, but the fact that a lot of Ferengi on DS9 are made to look rather dim and the ways they provide comic relief just makes me prefer the way TNG handled them... at least later in the series.
^^ Meh, they're somewhat dysfunctional until they have to get their act together for the good of Ferenginar.
I did enjoy the Ferengi more on DSN. Still, I miss their funky little horsheshoe crab starships and phaser whips from their earliest appearances. (Whatever happened to the Ferengi starships, anyway? They managed to stay out of the Dominon War, as far as I can tell.)
I loved the Ferengi in DS9 except for Zek. C'mon! He's the head of state of one of the major powers of the Alpha Quadrant! He should have been taken WAY more seriously.
DS9 made me really look forward to Ferengi episodes. Sometimes, I watch "The Magnificent Ferengi" to laugh.
I thought Quark was great, but we diverge on the other two, since I liked Rom and loved Nog. Though, I kind of agree with you about almost being treated as "senior staff" when he was still a cadet. Thing is, after the occupation arc, I think it made a lot more sense. Not only had he proven himself in the field, and been given a field commission because of it, but at this time, the "Holy shit serious manpower shortage GACK" subplot for the Federation's side of the war was in full swing (which is partly WHY someone like Nog gets such a commission). So at that point, it makes sense to me; who is gonna go "Hey! He's a cadet field promoted to lieutenant! He can't do (thing X that only senior officers should do)!" if he shows he has the talent?
Ha! I LOVE Zek's voice. I found him hilarious. But eh, to each their own. Agreed about the culture. Fleshing such things out was one of DS9's strengths (we learned FAR more about the cultures of the Ferengi, Cardassians, Bajorans, and Klingons from DS9 then we learned about any other culture from any other Trek show).
Hmm... meaning, outside the Federation, there are a LOT of guys like Quark (not just Ferengi guys)? I suppose I could see that... I dunno if I believe it'd be enough for him to quite be the "24th century everyman", personally...
I dunno if I'd go that far, in terms of the difference. In fact... *initiate subtle yet compelling segue into my response to the next quoted post*
...perhaps we can explain the differences between the Ferengi as seen on TNG vs. DS9 somewhat. This is almost certainly not what the writers had in mind at the time, but hey. Most of the Ferengi we saw on TNG WERE starship officers, members of the military, or (as someone else said) essentially "space pirates". This makes sense when you consider that these Ferengi were the ones encountered by the flagship of the Federation as it traveled through deep space. Only those Ferengi who are brave and skilled enough to set out as adventurers, or are members of the military, will have such encounters. Yet (as we saw with the mid to late season Ferengi on TNG) they are still concerned with profit, with an eye kept toward working the angle on whatever deal they can, even if they are explorers or warriors. On the other hand, on DS9 we see Ferengi who are primarily traders, merchants, Quark and his staff, and the occasional liquidator. Which, again, makes sense given the contrast in that show's setting to TNG's: an open-port station. In essence, TNG showed one side of Ferengi culture, DS9 showed another (granted, DS9 probably showed the more dominant one). Also, don't forget Leck! He was a genuine badass.
My impression is that the Ferengi wouldn't engage in open warfare, committing their entire military to a campaign, unless they REALLY had to. Zek and the rest of the government felt that time had not arrived, but even if it was never openly stated (for fear of pissing off the Dominion and ending up being attacked directly) my impression was always that Zek favored the Federation Alliance as far as who he wanted to win the war.
That's part of what made Zek great, I thought. He comes off almost like a comic relief character... then he pulls off stuff like what went down in "The Nagus." Crafty. It was only later, with the whole "he's getting too old and losing his mind" bit, where it was harder to take him seriously. There was some funny stuff in that whole arc (especially everything involving Quark's closet in "Ferengi Love Songs"; great stuff), but overall, I'm not sure that was the best choice for the character. Ah well.
And "The Magnificent Ferengi" was brilliant.
I definitely liked the way DS9 handled the Ferengi. They refined the species and showed us a lot more of their culture than was present on TNG. However, there are some ways I think it could have been done better.
1.) Aside from Quark and Nog, they come off as total idiots. Instead of using them for comic relief so often, they should have developed the species more fully.
2.) I always found it grating that the Federation/Starfleet characters looked down on them so much. These are supposed to be people who have put all forms of racial bigotry behind them. Yet, every time they dealt with the Ferengi, they were either condescending or downright insulting. A lot of time they were hypocritical as well. In the episode "Business as Usual," Quark becomes an arms merchant. Dax treats him like he's a leper because he's aiding the killings of people. However, she and the others have absolutely no problem with blowing away as many Jem'Hadar as they can during the war.
3.) They should not have included Iskha. I simply cannot tolerate this character. I often say that Jadzia was supremely self-absorbed. Well, Iskha puts her to shame. The way she treats Quark is simply unacceptable in my book. She was always willing to stab him in the back for her own gain, and then complain when he didn't thank her for doing so. At least when Quark stabbed someone in the back, he admitted it.
4.) This is the only time when Trek tried to give us a culture that was fundamentally different from our own. Every other culture in the Trek universe has a trance of real-life humanity in it. The Klingons are honorable, and that's a very Human thing. The Romulans are sneaky, another Human characteristic. The Dominion is secretive and suspicious, another Human quality. However, the Ferengi are driven PURELY by greed, which almost no Human is purely, 100% driven by. This is a good thing. It makes the Ferengi truly alien. However, they screwed the concept up by having the Ferengi morph into a proto-Federation society by the end of the series. They should have left them as the ultra-capitalistic greedy little bastards we came to know and love.
1.) Aside from Quark and Nog, they come off as total idiots. Instead of using them for comic relief so often, they should have developed the species more fully.
2.) I always found it grating that the Federation/Starfleet characters looked down on them so much. These are supposed to be people who have put all forms of racial bigotry behind them. Yet, every time they dealt with the Ferengi, they were either condescending or downright insulting. A lot of time they were hypocritical as well. In the episode "Business as Usual," Quark becomes an arms merchant. Dax treats him like he's a leper because he's aiding the killings of people. However, she and the others have absolutely no problem with blowing away as many Jem'Hadar as they can during the war.
3.) They should not have included Iskha. I simply cannot tolerate this character. I often say that Jadzia was supremely self-absorbed. Well, Iskha puts her to shame. The way she treats Quark is simply unacceptable in my book. She was always willing to stab him in the back for her own gain, and then complain when he didn't thank her for doing so. At least when Quark stabbed someone in the back, he admitted it.
4.) This is the only time when Trek tried to give us a culture that was fundamentally different from our own. Every other culture in the Trek universe has a trance of real-life humanity in it. The Klingons are honorable, and that's a very Human thing. The Romulans are sneaky, another Human characteristic. The Dominion is secretive and suspicious, another Human quality. However, the Ferengi are driven PURELY by greed, which almost no Human is purely, 100% driven by. This is a good thing. It makes the Ferengi truly alien. However, they screwed the concept up by having the Ferengi morph into a proto-Federation society by the end of the series. They should have left them as the ultra-capitalistic greedy little bastards we came to know and love.
I generally prefer the more dramatic and serious stories to the humoristic ones. However, the Ferengi were better as comic relief characters than as villains. I just can't take them seriously as villains. Nog was a great character in seasons 4-7 (he was just annoying before that).
I don't think I ever have like the Ferengi. This is down to how they are portrayed on screen.
It seems most Ferengi we ever see act the same way, look alike, and are very samey in their mannerisms and attitudes. The fact that they're almost always portrayed as comic relief adds to this. The Ferengi lack depth in how they're portrayed. How about a Ferengi sect who despise profit? Or an episode in which there is an alternate Rules of Acquisition, which the first Grand Nagus also is claimed to have wrote? This would have made them more complex and interesting, rather than endless talk from them about how greed is good, or how x venture would be highly profitable.
It seems most Ferengi we ever see act the same way, look alike, and are very samey in their mannerisms and attitudes. The fact that they're almost always portrayed as comic relief adds to this. The Ferengi lack depth in how they're portrayed. How about a Ferengi sect who despise profit? Or an episode in which there is an alternate Rules of Acquisition, which the first Grand Nagus also is claimed to have wrote? This would have made them more complex and interesting, rather than endless talk from them about how greed is good, or how x venture would be highly profitable.
The Federation in the era of TNG-DS9 is said to be a quasi-communist state, from that perspective how would they view the Ferengi? The Ferengi aren't some primitive steam age culture, they're a technological star fairing race. They're capitalist, money using, profit minded, business running and it makes them happy to boot. Sisko and company aren't racist, they're offended. In the Human enlighten utopia no one is suppose to even want this.
Don't the Ferengi understand?
I don't thing "The Ferengi" had warships, the ships were owned by individual powerful Ferengi or trading houses.
They kind of did that very thing in Quark's dream in Body Parts, wherein the Grand Nagus tells him that the Rules are just marketing ploys and therefore Quark should stop taking them so seriously.
In fact, Body Parts is easily one of the very best Ferengi episodes (I'd say it's one of DS9's best as a whole series, even), and yet highly unrecognized for some reason.
I agree with you, the Ferengi are better when they are in more serious stories. It's a shame only Quark and Nog got those; and more often than not, they got 'comedy' instead.
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