Who was in Command after Data?

[USS KG5]

The difference between frigate and battle cruiser is probably minimal in that respect, hence also the difference in rank requirements for commanding either ship type.

Yes quite - it actually lines up better with the 19th century Royal Navy in that respect, where only quite small ships got merely a Commander, and certainly a "rated" ship usually deserved a post-Captain. Horatio Hornblower's first command as a post-Captain in the books is merely a Sloop if I recall (the Atropos I think).

In some ways it is rather a good thing they dropped the classifications fairly quickly in TNG.

 

[clint g]

As of season 7, the Chain of Command would have been Picard, Riker, Data, Crusher, Troi, La Forge, and then Worf.

Crusher and Troi were out of the chain of command, I believe. They were bridge officers, because they had taken the test, but I don't recall ever seeing them in-charge when Picard, Riker and Data were gone. The best evidence we have is in Gambit when Worf became Data's first officer. Crusher, LaForge and Troi were all able to fill that role, but it was given to Worf.

Actually in this episode Worf asks why LaForge wasn't given the XO slot in his place due to the fact that Geordi was the higher ranking individual. I forget the justification for it but it was something along the lines of Riker needing someone with tactical experience for that particular mission and needing Geordi in the engine room because they were manning a crappy ship. Because of that I would think the chain of command would be Picard, Riker, Data, Geordi, Worf. Crusher and Troi would be outside the chain of command

 

[Marten]

Or hundreds, quite possibly, as we actually saw those dozens but we also learned the ship had a crew of a thousand people, a (to our eyes) disproportionate number of whom were commissioned officers.

To be fair, many of the thousand people on board must have been family members or non Star Fleet Personel, like the people in ten forward. But even if we discount half, 500 crewmen probably makes for hundred liutenants or so.

I think the assumption that position is more important than rank is correct. In Lessons, Picard's girlfriend, whose name eludes me, is a Lt Cmdr, but I seriously doubt anyone would consider her fifth in rank on the entire ship, as she is a scientist and not a line officer.

As for commanders commanding Star Ships, are there really any examples? On the top of my head, I can't think of any, every ship seems to have a captain in charge.

I have only watched the films about Hornblower, but doesn't he command a relatively large ship while being commander?

 

[Takeru]

Because of that I would think the chain of command would be Picard, Riker, Data, Geordi, Worf. Crusher and Troi would be outside the chain of command

But during Genesis Troi was in command while Worf was on the bridge, I always assumed after her promotion the chain of command was Picard, Riker, Data, Troi. She may be the ships counselor, but she's hanging around on the bridge most of the time, so why not put her in command if she's capable instead of calling Geordi to the bridge or give command to Worf ... seriously, I always thought he was too aggressive and impatient, if I were Picard Worf would be the last person I wanted to command my ship during a crisis.

 

[Timo]

As for commanders commanding Star Ships, are there really any examples?

Depends on what one considers a "starship".

A man wearing two solid braid commanded the transport Antares for Starfleet in "Charlie X". We never learned what his rank was, but it would be awfully confusing if his two braid didn't mean Commander exactly like the two braid on Kirk's top officers did. But the Antares wasn't much of a starship, apparently, and only had a crew of 25.

Of course, the blouse worn by the skipper of the Antares had earlier been worn by Kirk in the pilot episode "Where No Man". So we could argue that Kirk held the rank of Commander in that episode, despite commanding a mighty starship. Or we could argue that the rank system was subtly different back then (even though various spinoffs have hence supported the idea that two solid braid meant Commander long before TOS). But it would make no sense for this putative older rank system to remain in parallel use with the modern one in "Charlie X".

Various people with three pips or less commanded the Defiant on several occasions, including Cmdr Sisko, LtCmdr Dax, LtCmdr Worf and even Major Kira. But again, the Defiant isn't much of a ship, and apparently only had a crew of 40-50.

Various low-ranking people have been seen in command of both our hero ship and various large guest ships. Those have been temporary commands, though, or at least have never been proven to be permanent ones. For example, one LtCmdr Hobson was the ranking officer aboard the giant Sutherland in "Unification II", but that doesn't mean the ship's regular skipper would have had fewer than four pips, as it was made explicit the Sutherland was dragged into action from the middle of a refit. Similarly, a mere Lt(jg) was on the center seat of the similarly gigantic Prometheus in "Second Sight", but this doesn't mean the ship's proper CO wouldn't have been a full Captain.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

I think that on a ship as big as the E-D, the question "who comes next after main character X" is meaningless. On one hand, the ship will be so full of high-ranking officers that none of the "supporting main characters" would ever realistically get a stab at command. On the other hand, dramatic and budgetary concerns require that these low-ranking main characters always get the job, through some sort of a contrivance that prevents us from finding out who would "really" be in command after Data gets fried.

There never was any situation where Data would have needed a successor, so we never got data on who he, she or it might be. Worf was a candidate, yes - but Kirk's ship also had high-ranking Security chiefs who nevertheless never ever got the chance to try the center seat - the job went to people of junior rank, presumably because Security chiefs have better things to do than command the ship. Worf might thus be disqualified on the same grounds as LaForge. And the E-D would have dozens of Lieutenants in row ready to take the position if our two LtCmdrs were not "it". Or hundreds, quite possibly, as we actually saw those dozens but we also learned the ship had a crew of a thousand people, a (to our eyes) disproportionate number of whom were commissioned officers.

Really, even though we never saw anybody succeed Data, and thus got no solid evidence, we could well argue that Starfleet has no definite system of who succeeds whom below the level of Second Officer. All the officers on the ship appear extremely cross-trained and probably could handle the job; there might be a simple rule there that the most senior officer in sight gets the job in an acute crisis, not the most senior officer aboard the ship or otherwise within the cubic mile. Our heroes would supposedly be above and beyond petty squabbles and wouldn't have any reason to argue no matter who took command.

Then again, see "Disaster"...

Timo Saloniemi

One could argue that members of the ship's command crew/senior staff take precedence over other officers. And the senior staff is almost always identical to the show's main characters anyway.

Harry Kim, who only held the rank of Ensign, clearly had a more important position than many other lieutenants on Voyager. He was head of the Operations department and sat in the staff meetings.

 

[clint g]

Because of that I would think the chain of command would be Picard, Riker, Data, Geordi, Worf. Crusher and Troi would be outside the chain of command

But during Genesis Troi was in command while Worf was on the bridge, I always assumed after her promotion the chain of command was Picard, Riker, Data, Troi. She may be the ships counselor, but she's hanging around on the bridge most of the time, so why not put her in command if she's capable instead of calling Geordi to the bridge or give command to Worf ... seriously, I always thought he was too aggressive and impatient, if I were Picard Worf would be the last person I wanted to command my ship during a crisis.

Honestly, the only explanation I have for that is shitty writting. It doesn't make any sense at all and looking at it from a real world military perspective it wouldn't happen. But then again Trek has never been too good in this regard anyways

EDIT: As for the whole rank versus position thing, for the most part your position and rank go hand in hand. For example, a chief engineer on a ship would rate that a Lt Commander have the slot. The same going for chief medical officer etc. Of course, there are situations where lower ranking individuals would fill in a slot designated for a higher ranking individual but that's usually the exception

 

[Lor'Vela]

One could argue that members of the ship's command crew/senior staff take precedence over other officers. And the senior staff is almost always identical to the show's main characters anyway.

Harry Kim, who only held the rank of Ensign, clearly had a more important position than many other lieutenants on Voyager. He was head of the Operations department and sat in the staff meetings.

Precisely. I think there were even a few occasions were Harry was ordering a few Lieutenants around. Another example would be Malcolm Reed, who despite being subordinate to Hayes, his position of Security Chief gave him higher presidence in the command chain. And this is why I don't buy into the fact where command structure is always determined by rank, as position and experience count for far more.

 

[milo bloom]

Wouldn't La Forge be tied up in Engineering, just like Crusher in Sickbay?

I never understood the Chief Engineer's high position in the chain of command for just this reason. (i.e. Scotty, LaForge, Tucker)

Shouldn't the C.E. be, I dunno, handling the engines? Especially in a crisis.

My take on this particular quirk of Trek is that having the CE be in the command structure allows for A) a wider variety of input on situations (i.e. an outside perspective on command decisions) and B) if something were to completely take out the bridge or even the saucer section, with the CE presumably below decks he could take over from the engineering or the aux. bridge.

As for the main question, I always took it as Worf then La Forge after Data. Crusher and later Troi were both qualified as watch officers, but they weren't in the regular chain of command. If something happened to Picard, Riker and Data, it would be Worf then Geordie who would take command.

I think a general rule of thumb is that a blue shirt is always outside the main chain of command, no matter their rank, unless specifically assigned to a position (Spock, Jadzia).

 

[Nick086]

I remember that episode where Geordi takes command of the ship in the first season. There was a Lt or Lt. Commander (I'm not sure) that was giving Geordi some problems about command experince and trying to pull rank on him.

 

[Marten]

Yes, Picard handed command to La Forge, expecting no trouble at all, but then everything went crazy.

The cheif engineer did indeed try to pull rank, but Picards order overrode it, as I remember it.

 

[milo bloom]

I remember that episode where Geordi takes command of the ship in the first season. There was a Lt or Lt. Commander (I'm not sure) that was giving Geordi some problems about command experince and trying to pull rank on him.

It was Arsenal of Freedom, and I believe it was the Chief Engineer trying to take over, and I'm pretty sure he was a Lt Cmdr.

 

[Takeru]

Honestly, the only explanation I have for that is shitty writting.

Why? It's not like Worf was commanding the ship on a regular basis until Troi took over his spot. Honestly, I don't remember him ever being in command on TNG, so it really isn't shitty writing if Troi is given command before him.

It doesn't make any sense at all and looking at it from a real world military perspective it wouldn't happen.

But who cares about a real world military perspective? We're talking about Starfleet, a fictional organization in the 24th century. I'm pretty sure from a 16th century perspective a lot of things in todays military make no sense at all and wouldn't happen (women, buzzcuts, a gay commisioned officer being in a relationship with an enlisted man ...). A real world military perspective is absolutely irrelevant.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Yes, Picard handed command to La Forge, expecting no trouble at all, but then everything went crazy.

The cheif engineer did indeed try to pull rank, but Picards order overrode it, as I remember it.

Yes, the conflict on "Arsenal of Freedom" was based on the fact that a) La Forge was put in command by Picard and b) Logan outranked La Forge. La Forge and Logan then debated which of these two things take precedence. The fact that there was even a debate over this seems to imply that there isn't a definite Starfleet regulation on the subject... or maybe Logan was just being a jerk. Picard certainly sided with La Forge after he had come back from the planet.

(At that point La Forge was a lieutenant junior grade, while chief engineer Logan was a full lieutenant.)

 

[Marten]

Worf did atleast command the bridge frequently, something Troi never did.

 

[KobayashiMaru13]

On Kirk's Enterprise, the chain of command was Kirk, Spock, Scotty, McCoy, Sulu, Uhura, Chekov (I'm not sure if Chekov is above Uhura or not, since he is a more junior officer). So, assuming that that is the same, the chain of command on Picard's Enterprise would be, after Picard, Riker, and Data: Geordi, Crusher, Worf, Troi. (with Tasha above Worf, if she had still been alive)

 

[Vanyel]

As of season 7, the Chain of Command would have been Picard, Riker, Data, Crusher, Troi, La Forge, and then Worf.

Crusher and Troi were out of the chain of command, I believe. They were bridge officers, because they had taken the test, but I don't recall ever seeing them in-charge when Picard, Riker and Data were gone. The best evidence we have is in Gambit when Worf became Data's first officer. Crusher, LaForge and Troi were all able to fill that role, but it was given to Worf.

Actually in this episode Worf asks why LaForge wasn't given the XO slot in his place due to the fact that Geordi was the higher ranking individual. I forget the justification for it but it was something along the lines of Riker needing someone with tactical experience for that particular mission and needing Geordi in the engine room because they were manning a crappy ship. Because of that I would think the chain of command would be Picard, Riker, Data, Geordi, Worf. Crusher and Troi would be outside the chain of command

clint g, aren't you talking about Peak Performance and not Gambit?

 

[Snaploud]

I assume (most of) the senior staff represent Starfleet's version of "line officers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_officer

In theory, an ensign "line officer" would outrank a Commander non-line officer. It's just that Starfleet has line officers with different sub-specialties.

It makes some sense. The "senior staff" are constantly around the captain and get to collaborate on major decisions. They would be most qualified to take over in an emergency. Senior staff (at least, those in the chain of command) are probably also responsible for learning how to lead in a variety of specialties. In other words, the reason why all the senior staff appear to be generalists (knowledgeable in a variety of areas) is not that all of starfleet is composed of generalists. It's that these particular officers need to be generalists in order to be in the chain of command.

 

[clint g]

Honestly, the only explanation I have for that is shitty writting.

Why? It's not like Worf was commanding the ship on a regular basis until Troi took over his spot. Honestly, I don't remember him ever being in command on TNG, so it really isn't shitty writing if Troi is given command before him.

Because it makes little sense to have a psychiatrist running a ship

It doesn't make any sense at all and looking at it from a real world military perspective it wouldn't happen.

But who cares about a real world military perspective?

i do?

A real world military perspective is absolutely irrelevant.

Considering that it is modeled off of the real world military, you would be wrong. The problems started occuring when writers who didn't know any better started mauling things

 

[clint g]

Crusher and Troi were out of the chain of command, I believe. They were bridge officers, because they had taken the test, but I don't recall ever seeing them in-charge when Picard, Riker and Data were gone. The best evidence we have is in Gambit when Worf became Data's first officer. Crusher, LaForge and Troi were all able to fill that role, but it was given to Worf.

Actually in this episode Worf asks why LaForge wasn't given the XO slot in his place due to the fact that Geordi was the higher ranking individual. I forget the justification for it but it was something along the lines of Riker needing someone with tactical experience for that particular mission and needing Geordi in the engine room because they were manning a crappy ship. Because of that I would think the chain of command would be Picard, Riker, Data, Geordi, Worf. Crusher and Troi would be outside the chain of command

clint g, aren't you talking about Peak Performance and not Gambit?

I might, it's been so long that I don't remember it very well