I think this echos of Terry Shrivo.
Is someone hooked up to a life support system considered alive?
or
If the Doc. was say someone that relied on technology like say Stephen Halking, would we even question what he is or his rights?
should the doctor be acknowledged as a person?
- Thread starter Kai Winn
- Start date
Is someone hooked up to a life support system considered alive?
or
If the Doc. was say someone that relied on technology like say Stephen Halking, would we even question what he is or his rights?
A human's perception and experiences are truly unique; our brains weren't preprogrammed - we collected memories of external stimuli through our senses and through the complex associations that were created we learned to be who we are. Our bodies came with a simple OS that runs a 'life support system', but as far as cognition goes, the hardware wrote the software itself; I suppose somewhat equivalent to 'we are the sum of our memories and experience'.
The Doctor and Data however had an information dump into their hardware, they didn't 'learn' to be who they are, their personalities were prewritten; and even though they may learn new things from that point is it likely their personalities will change significantly?
If their matrixes or positronic brains were completely blank and formed associations themselves through their experiences I think that would count as sentience; a simple data dump though and they would be completely different.
The Doctor and Data however had an information dump into their hardware, they didn't 'learn' to be who they are, their personalities were prewritten; and even though they may learn new things from that point is it likely their personalities will change significantly?
If their matrixes or positronic brains were completely blank and formed associations themselves through their experiences I think that would count as sentience; a simple data dump though and they would be completely different.
I think it depends on what you cartagorise a person to be:
Living on air - no the Dr doesnt need that.
Needs to have off spring - no the Dr doesnt need that either.
Needs to eat - no to that too
Shows intelligence - yes
Shows emotion - can do
Understands death - yes
The problem I find with a lot of people is that they put life as we know it here on Earth, by the time Star Fleet had been across a few quadrants, I would hope that would not be the same. Rules of life would, I feel, change depending on the different planets atmosphere etc.
I would say the Dr was a sentient being, so yes he would be the equivalent of a person, just not the same.
Living on air - no the Dr doesnt need that.
Needs to have off spring - no the Dr doesnt need that either.
Needs to eat - no to that too
Shows intelligence - yes
Shows emotion - can do
Understands death - yes
The problem I find with a lot of people is that they put life as we know it here on Earth, by the time Star Fleet had been across a few quadrants, I would hope that would not be the same. Rules of life would, I feel, change depending on the different planets atmosphere etc.
I would say the Dr was a sentient being, so yes he would be the equivalent of a person, just not the same.
The question based on your assumption, then, is: what would happen if you completely wiped Data or the Doctor's memories, leaving intact only the basic OS that they need to maintain 'life'? And then let them run?
It's canonical that Data had a childhood of a sort. He started, more or less, as a blank slate and Soong had a bastard of a time convincing him, for example, to wear clothing because the colonists didn't like having an anatomically correct android running around naked. The vast, vast majority of what he became by, say, Nemesis, was not pre-programmed in, but learned. The Doctor's entire stint on Voyager can also be viewed as a childhood. Yes, he came pre-programmed with extensive knowledge of medicine out of the box, but he came with pretty much nothing else. And much of what he knows now was not a data-dump, but learned through experience and then applied.
And as for signifigant personality changes as a result of that learning: take season 1 doctor and compare him to season 7 doctor. The difference is quite astounding. Data is more difficult, because much of what we describe as personality is defined by our emotional reactions to events, and how we socialise. Data has a distinct liability because he, for the bulk of his life, literally had no emotions - even more so than a Vulcan, who has those emotions but supresses them.
Finally, Star Trek, including Voyager, has numerous examples of organic beings having their brains taken over, modified or enhanced. Is Kes suddenly not sentient because her brain was overwritten by Tieran's in Warlord? Or the entire crews's because their memories were tampered with in Unforgettable? There are cybernetic organisms, too, like Seven of Nine? Her cybernetic enhancements grant her the ability to download vast quantities of information directly into her brains, after all.
Both Data and the Doctor would pass any Turing test with ease. In conversation, they're pretty much indistinguishable from an intelligent human being, although one with a rather low emotional intelligence. Data doesn't do well with allegories, has trouble understanding humor and can't fathom emotions because he doesn't experience them. But yeah, I have no trouble granting them individuality and sentience.
Um, Data with or with out the "emotion chip"?
Data was in his thirties (that he knew of, in Farpoint) but the Doctor was new born in Caretaker and we can see the "gap" between their "god given" abilities.
Data was in his thirties (that he knew of, in Farpoint) but the Doctor was new born in Caretaker and we can see the "gap" between their "god given" abilities.
The doc's not sentient, nor is Data. They're both just very cleverly designed software, and not deserving of any of the rights of a human being.
And your reasoning for this is..?
Obviously neither of them are, even though they are both autonomous enough to survive the heat death of the universe with out any further aid from a flesh and blood being...
The difference is that Data is LEGALLY sentient, but the Doctor is LEGALLY Property.
I mean what was going to happen if Data had lost at trial in Measure of a Man?
Was he going to submit to the law and admit that he was property or was he going to pull that empire down?
The difference is that Data is LEGALLY sentient, but the Doctor is LEGALLY Property.
I mean what was going to happen if Data had lost at trial in Measure of a Man?
Was he going to submit to the law and admit that he was property or was he going to pull that empire down?
I think you're missing my point.
It isn't the flesh that determines sentience; it is the brain. The Doctor's brain is the computer he is being run on. If the Voyager computer/mobile emitter is capable of running a sentient program than by definition the computer must be sentient. The computer is the Doctor's brain.
A life support system merely keeps the body alive, but it doesn't replace the brain. If it did replace the brain than it would be an entirely new person.
Yeah, like what happened to Bareil?
Then what about V'Ger?
It assumed that by grafting on "human" biology to itself that it would become a god... Oh, it already thought that it was was alive.
The process in reverse?
Then what about V'Ger?
It assumed that by grafting on "human" biology to itself that it would become a god... Oh, it already thought that it was was alive.
The process in reverse?
Kira's boyfriend was a priest-politician. He was sorting out a peace treaty with the spoonheads when he had a serious accident. If they left him alone and induced a coma he would have been fine in a couple weeks. But they needed him. So they pumped him full of drugs. When they stopped helping, they cut his brain in half and duct tapped a hard drive to what was left. He seemed less three dimensional and Kira was bitching that they had killed the man she loved and left some freak Borg zombie in his place. It was al very sad.
The motionless picture is pretty much as I explained. V'Ger came home to "join" with it's creator, and eventually it did.
The motionless picture is pretty much as I explained. V'Ger came home to "join" with it's creator, and eventually it did.
I understood your point, I did.
I guess I was trying to think of the closest real world situation to compare it too...............but now I don't think there is anything real world similar.
We don't deny people sentience due to skin color or handicaps anymore. I think I picked Shrivo because her brain wasn't working, yet she was still considered alive even on life support. So I guess I was getting at, is a brain dead person on life support still considered sentient?
"We" is a very acute definition, when you really mean the first world and even then, probably just America and most of the other g8 Nations.
And of course, there's the posterchild for clusterfuckupedry "Darfur"?
And of course, there's the posterchild for clusterfuckupedry "Darfur"?
I think you're missing the point. The computer is the doctor's 'body' - his program is the brain. The computer provides the resources that allow his programming to function. His programming tells the computer how to use those resources. Where he differs from you or I is that his body consists of processors and a power supply, and that his body and his mind aren't as inter-connected as yours or mine. You can move his mind from body to body.
Its been demonstrated that the Doctor retains his sense of self no matter what hardware - what body - he has. But when he is not on the mobile emitter, the emitter has no awareness of anything - because it never did in the first place. It is midnless, brain-dead.
It's a shame. The only episode of Bariel that I've seen (or remember) is the Mirrored Universe one after he died. I really do need to go through early DS9 at one point.
That's true that it would be the program, and not so much the computer. The computer would just be an empty brain that is processing the, to put it in human terms, the thoughts and feelings of the person. But my point was that if the computer is capable of running a sentient program, would the computer not also be sentient? Can an artificial machine run sentience 2.0 without being sentient itself?
The other problem I have regarding the Doctor and his sentience, is if he is considered sentient why not every other hologram ever created? Is it because they don't know they're in a holodeck? By that logic the people Worf's brother (not Kurn) saved weren't sentient. Holograms, regardless of whether they are being lied to or not, possess the same ability to think, learn, and adapt that the Doctor possesses. Why is the Doctor considered sentient while the characters of Dixon Hill were not?
The computer would not also be sentient because it does not, in and of itself, possess intelligence or self awareness, nor does it likely have conciousness - the three trek criteria for sentience. The program can those things, but remove the program, and the computer is a dumb box.
Most (and there are exceptions) standard holodeck characters don't actually possess self-awarness or the ability to learn. They follow a flexible but pre-written script and use pre-determined behaviours that can't be deviated from to a large degree; most do not have the same ability as the Doctor to think, learn and adapt. Remember that the Doctor is an incredibly large, incredibly sophisticated program that took years to develop and was designed to do incredibly complicated things - everything from interacting with people without a script to finding a way to treat a disease that has never, ever been seen before. A typical holdeck character exists to provide infromation appropriate to the story you're playing - nothing more.
If we do say, though, for argument's sake, that all holograms have the potential of the Doctor; what then? If there's even a chance that they're sentient, we're right back at the prospect of denying rights simply because it's not convenient. There's a word for that.
In the federation this is a huge argument because all life is sacred and equally respected.
What about Romulan or Klingon space?
Where they have, Second, Third, Fourth Class Citizen's and out and out Slaves.
You recall how unenchanted Data was at the thought of coming under Romulan scrutiny in Reunification?
Since the first class citizens of Romulan and Klingon space are in charge they'd hardly mind making "some" holograms 3rd or fourth class citizens with all the rights and privileges accompanying that degree of entitlement.
What about Romulan or Klingon space?
Where they have, Second, Third, Fourth Class Citizen's and out and out Slaves.
You recall how unenchanted Data was at the thought of coming under Romulan scrutiny in Reunification?
Since the first class citizens of Romulan and Klingon space are in charge they'd hardly mind making "some" holograms 3rd or fourth class citizens with all the rights and privileges accompanying that degree of entitlement.
That seems like a very narrow-minded point of view in all honesty. As others have pointed out, a more extreme varioaton of this kind of thinking has been at the core of countless atrocities in the history of mankind. Since one ethnicity can easily think like this of another ethnicity (minus the software part, of course). Well, not that I can, but sadly history has proven that many other can.
Obviously, the doctor isn't a human. But sentient, intelligent and all that? Most certainly. Beyond that, it doesn't really even matter. It is, in short, a being that deserves to be treated as you would any other intelligent being.
That the Doc needs a computer to operate means nothing in itself. Why would the computer have to be sentient, just because it combined with the appropriate software is? Drain our brain of all synapses and we aren't sentient anymore either, even though the brain itself is still there (and normally forms the most important part of our consciousness). Kind of like the computer without code. Granted, while synapses come naturally, initial software code must generally be written and activated. End result is what counts, however.
Also yeah, especially originally there was a lot of preprogrammed things in the Doc, behavior and all that. But similarly humans have certain reflexes and behavioral models that could be said to be programmed into us in our genetic code (and like it or not, that "code" determines a lot about us). Just like the Doc's software code, except the software takes it a little farther due to necessity. But as said in the end, it's the end result that matters, and the end result is a sentient being.
I guess I could write out this in more detail and more coherently, but heck, it's 4:30AM and I'm tired
