Kathryn Janeway - Post "Endgame"

[Akiraprise]

Some spoilers for the books taking place after Endgame to follow.



I have finally gotten around to reading the post Endgame relaunch books. I am a bit behind, and I know this could go in LIT, but I would rather discuss it in the VOY forum since this is where I hang out for the most part and I know a lot of people here have read some of the relaunch books.

I finally understand where everyone is coming from and why some are so pissed off with what was done to the Janeway character. I am currently reading Before Dishonor and am about halfway through. The authors turned Janway into some priggish admiral so hell bent on following the rules at all costs that she is just a bitch. She's arrogant and refuses to listen to other people's opnions. This is not the Janeway I remember in the show. That Janeway was kind to her crew while giving no leniency to her enemies. She tried diplomacy when possible, would at least listen to her crew even if she didn't follow their advice. This Janeway though is just, I don't know, retarded? Then she goes and gets herself assimilated even after being warned by Q... she just seems off from the show. I understand why people got so pissed off over the direction they took her.

 

[Trek Survivor]

Firstly, I'm not a big Voyager fan; nothing against it, saw the first couple of seasons, kinda liked it, but nothing grabbed me enough to keep coming back for more.

However, despite that, I was also disappointed with Janeway's fate in "Before Dishonor" (which I just finished reading). Whatever she is, she's a Trek captain and deserves a better send-off. What would fans have done if Kirk, Picard or Sisko had gone out like (I believe this is the expression you Americans use) "a punk"?

I have all sorts of problems with this book anyway, but thought I'd chime in here too!

 

[Lynx]

Janeway is definitely the most ill-treated Star Trek captain ever.

I wasn't that happy with what they did to her in the later seasons of the series where her behavior became a bit erratic and unbalanced. But that's nothing compared to the downright character destruction in the latest books.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The authors turned Janway into some priggish admiral so hell bent on following the rules at all costs that she is just a bitch. She's arrogant and refuses to listen to other people's opnions. This is not the Janeway I remember in the show.

But she is the Janeway I remember from the show.

On the other hand, Peter David spent the time and care to turn Edward Jellico into a decent well rounded bloke eventually, after about a dozen instalments of New Frontier.

I was more outraged by the lack of monstering in one of the other novels where Janeway befriends (her exfiance) marks new wife and they go to the beach together to build sand castles. What the hells ever happened to "Delete the wife"?

 

[Nick Ryder]

Well look at Nemesis, didn't she have the Bun of Steel again? When she's got the BoS on, she's no fun, all business, kick your ass and sneer at you Janeway. When the hair's down, she's only moderately bitchy, cocky and a bit more... human.

The feckin' BoS should have stayed in the DQ.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm wondering if that was a girls club thing?

Peer pressure?

Cause I know if don't ave to "see" people for any generous length of time i do stop shaving my face daily.

I mean Nacheyev is the only female brass I can think of off hand and she definitely wore her hair VERY up.

Alternately?

Maybe Braga didn't watch the last few seasons (Why does that sound familiar?) with the Bob and just assumed her hair had stayed the same as it had since he created her for the pilot? kinda like how when new writers for X-Men comics arrives or returns, and they want to recripple Xavier all over again no what miracle cure ihad just gotten him ambulatory again. First principles are comfy.

 

[pookha]

dont care for before dishoner but did like how the memory of her was handled in "full circle".

 

[Kataaran]

I've stopped buying the books because of the massive dump they took on Voyager. I'm working my way through the DS9 relaunch when I find them second hand but frankly Pocket Books ain't seeing any more of my money.

 

[Akiraprise]

The authors turned Janway into some priggish admiral so hell bent on following the rules at all costs that she is just a bitch. She's arrogant and refuses to listen to other people's opnions. This is not the Janeway I remember in the show.

But she is the Janeway I remember from the show.

She wasn't that much of a stick in the mud. I always figured Janeway would be a more lenient Admiral after all she and her crew went through. Not some uber bitch. Not like she didn't bend the rules from time to time.

I just finished Before Dishonor. At least the ending gave her some closure.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

I'm sorry, but the woman who could face down the BORG QUEEN not once but three times would not have been defeated by a "carniverous" WALL!

As for the relaunch, I didn't like the first 2 books since the professional author made a huge continuity mistake with Icheb, (The young man hasn't had to regenerate since episode 2 of the 7th season.) so I never bothered with any others after that for many years.

I'd heard rumblings of Janeway's death for a year before I picked up "Full Circle" and discovered not only was she dead, she didn't even die "in" a Voyager story, she died in the previous TNG novel. Hrumph!

I choose to disbelieve in the PocketBook mythos. TNG effectively ignored the very good BORG origin story penned by Shatner and friends when it came out with "First Contact". Its obvious that to TPTB in the film/TV biz, when it comes to Star Trek canon...all novels are "just" fan fiction.

 

[KiraDax]

I think they really just royally screwed up the character by turning her into an Admiral, and dug themselves into a deeper hole trying to fix her for the books.

Captain Janeway could be cocky and crazy and annoying, but she was, as others have said, ultimately still human and relateable.

I couldn't relate at all to the paper pusher onscreen in Nemesis, and I haven't been able to relate to the character written about in any of the relaunch books. She's a captain who belongs with her ship and crew, or doesn't work period.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You know that as a subordinate to all her superior officers in her every other assignment before she became Captain, she must have done a lot of paper pushing and what other people told her?

The Captain rank is this strange little autonomous bubble where you can feel like he king of the castle when you're really still just the dirty old rascal... I can only imagine that they are many grades of Admiral, and at this point in her career Kathy was still at the bottom of the foodchain.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

KIRADAX

couldn't relate at all to the paper pusher onscreen in Nemesis

I agree, but it wasn't so much her "paperpusher" persona that I disagreed with, it was the sarcastic teasing of Picard that seemed out of place. Rewatching it makes me agree with the poster who c/o the return of the bun affecting the scene. It was as if that bun made her lose that easy going confidence we saw throughout season 2-7.

 

[KiraDax]

KIRADAX

couldn't relate at all to the paper pusher onscreen in Nemesis

I agree, but it wasn't so much her "paperpusher" persona that I disagreed with, it was the sarcastic teasing of Picard that seemed out of place. Rewatching it makes me agree with the poster who c/o the return of the bun affecting the scene. It was as if that bun made her lose that easy going confidence we saw throughout season 2-7.

Yeah, the Admiralty might have been a promotion rank wise, but character wise it took her two steps back. It was a return to everything that made her so awfully annoying at times on Voyager...she was the service and the title, not the individual. Her ingrained arrogance got full play.

I always said that if Janeway ever made Admiral, she's be more infuriating than even Nechayev, and that scene didn't change my mind.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

I find myself in agreement - putting Janeway behind a desk pretty much wiped out the opportunity to actually do things with her. The Janeway we saw on Voyager was someone who was willing to get into the thick of things. As an Admiral, that just isn't possible, since you've got a million things to do, and very few of them involve leaving the desk.

As a shout-out, the Janeway cameo in Nemesis was a nice touch (I think that's the first time I've ever said something nice about Nemesis). But for the character? Horrible thing to do. About the only thing that could be done with her in the novels was to kill her - if she got promoted in the first place, what would have gotten her busted back down to Captain? At the time Before Dishonor was written, the path future Voyager novels would take hadn't been decided yet, so it wasn't as if they could just say 'hold off, make her the fleet admiral of Project Full Circle instead of gakking her.'

 

[CoveTom]

Maybe Braga didn't watch the last few seasons (Why does that sound familiar?) with the Bob and just assumed her hair had stayed the same as it had since he created her for the pilot? kinda like how when new writers for X-Men comics arrives or returns, and they want to recripple Xavier all over again no what miracle cure ihad just gotten him ambulatory again. First principles are comfy.

Braga didn't create her. Piller, Taylor and Berman did. Braga was not in charge of the show until the later years, so if anything, she should be fresh in his mind as she was later on, not in the beginning.

 

[AuntKate]

I find myself in agreement - putting Janeway behind a desk pretty much wiped out the opportunity to actually do things with her. The Janeway we saw on Voyager was someone who was willing to get into the thick of things. As an Admiral, that just isn't possible, since you've got a million things to do, and very few of them involve leaving the desk.

As a shout-out, the Janeway cameo in Nemesis was a nice touch (I think that's the first time I've ever said something nice about Nemesis). But for the character? Horrible thing to do. About the only thing that could be done with her in the novels was to kill her - if she got promoted in the first place, what would have gotten her busted back down to Captain? At the time Before Dishonor was written, the path future Voyager novels would take hadn't been decided yet, so it wasn't as if they could just say 'hold off, make her the fleet admiral of Project Full Circle instead of gakking her.'

This is really so very wrong.

Admirals and generals don't just sit behind desks, especially the lower ranked ones. There are generals all over the world where troops are deployed, and there are admirals in charge of fleets of ships, as well (I'm sure there is an admiral on every aircraft carrier, for example). There have to be admirals out there in space in charge of regions of Federation space or in charge of the AQ fleet and the BQ fleet.

As stated, Janeway could very easily have been in charge of the fleet that has been dispatched to the Delta Quadrant in the most recent books. Yes, she would be more strategic than tactical in her outlook, but it is about time for the Trek world to wake up to the reality of the higher ranks and use them for something more than paper pushers. And Beyer could very easily bring Janeway back now--just have the Q pop her onto the bridge, if nothing else.

As for the recent Voyager novels, I'm not buying them. When Janeway returns (and I'm pretty sure she will), I'll consider catching up with them, but only if the Janeway that is written is close to the character we saw on screen.

Sorry I just don't buy the excuse that Janeway's promotion meant that she had to be killed. Surely the writers have more imagination than that.

 

[Lynx]

The real Janeway is the one we saw in episodes like "Sacred Ground", "Maneuvers", "resistance" and other episodes when she was ready to sacrifice herself to save a crewmember or other friend.

As for her rank as an Admiral and how they claim that it was impossible to write stories about her because of that, well I don't buy it. With some will, skill and imagination it is possible to find a reason for having her out in space in command of Voyager. Didn't Kirk himself command the Enterprise as an Admiral.

And if that Admiral rank really make it so impossible to have her in command of Voyager, then demote her. Now that's a challenge! Find a way to demote her and then let her redeem herself in some difficult mission. Much better than to annihilate the character.

 

[Kataaran]

I have a suspicion that the Voyager relaunch books are designed to appeal to TNG and DS9 fans more than fans of the Voyager TV show. A very small straw poll amongst my Trek (but not Voyager) loving friends indicated that Janeway was one of the things they didn't like about Voyager.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

This is really so very wrong.

Admirals and generals don't just sit behind desks, especially the lower ranked ones. There are generals all over the world where troops are deployed, and there are admirals in charge of fleets of ships, as well (I'm sure there is an admiral on every aircraft carrier, for example). There have to be admirals out there in space in charge of regions of Federation space or in charge of the AQ fleet and the BQ fleet.

As stated, Janeway could very easily have been in charge of the fleet that has been dispatched to the Delta Quadrant in the most recent books. Yes, she would be more strategic than tactical in her outlook, but it is about time for the Trek world to wake up to the reality of the higher ranks and use them for something more than paper pushers. And Beyer could very easily bring Janeway back now--just have the Q pop her onto the bridge, if nothing else.

Surely the writers have more imagination than popping her onto the bridge, too, don't they? The thing about killing a character off then bringing them back is that there should be a decent story tied to it, as well as a good path for the character afterwards. It should not just be a case of 'oops, we messed up killing off X, better bring them back.'

You talk about how Trek hasn't shown admirals in a position where they're more than paper pushers. The thing is, she had been shown to have become this type of admiral. Now, you can blame the editors and writers who let this be her characterization for the times she'd appeared previously, but either way, the character had become that. Would you rather see the character stagnate behind a desk or go out fighting - she did resist the Borg programming in those last moments. Because at the time of her death, those were the only real options, unless she was supposed to act wildly out of character in order to get demoted back to command of Voyager, which wouldn't have worked - that would have been a prize, not a punishment. It worked for Kirk because he'd saved the planet with the actions he was getting busted down for.

Trek also hasn't done much with showing the effects of the loss of such a major figure in people's lives. This could be viewed as a metaphor for the loss of a family matriarch, the death of the crew's mother. We don't have as much connection with the actual mothers of the crew, but Janeway's loss hits us like it does the crew. There's the connection.

And, more to the point, Star Trek has previously glossed over the deaths of the characters. Tasha dies and next episode it's back to business as usual. Jadzia dies and only Worf is deeply affected - Sisko's leave is due more to the loss of the Prophets than her death, he just wanted her guidance, and even then, that was more the guidance of Dax, not Jadzia, so Ezri comes in and he's good. Data's death comes close, but it's also buried in with the fact that several other characters have left the Enterprise and moved on - Picard hasn't just lost Data, he's also got several other key positions that are being refilled at the same time. Here's a case where the death of a main character has actual effects on the crew, where the loss can be felt. I don't know, maybe this is just the fact that death has been playing a fairly dominant role in my family over the past few years, I feel that showing the characters reacting to Janeway's death is a stronger story than just putting the old crew back together.

Like I said, the path of the future Voyager novels, including the fleet admiral position, hadn't been decided when Before Dishonor was written. The editors didn't know that there would be a Fleet Admiral traveling with them at the time, and he was still taken out of the picture by the end of Unworthy, so that position is now filled by the fleet Captain, who has her own storyline going on. Janeway herself wouldn't have much of a role. Are you telling me it's preferable to have her there just for the sake of her not being dead?