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Star Fleet Academy Question

^Just because Starfleet has a military role and its members sometimes call themselves soldiers, it doesn't mean that 50% of courses at the academy would be military courses. It's simply not necessary. Shooting a phaser and learning a few basic maneuvers and contemporary tactics is easy

Really? You know this because, what, you've studied modern combat training techniques and leadership courses? And have extrapolated what kinds of training would be required for combat in 23rd and 24th Century conditions?

Again, there's this tendency to downplay defense-oriented roles and duties and training compared to science. Why?
 
My personal opinion is that, given any Academy class... you're going to get just as many differing answers to if they're "military" or not equal to the number of graduates.

Honestly, that's what you see in RL. Some of the people in my class like to put the proverbial "M" in "military", as the saying goes... while others, not so much, focusing more on their expertise or field. Yet both have gone through the same number of classes and amount of training, at least for 4 years.

YMMV, of course.

Cheers,
-CM-
 
^Just because Starfleet has a military role and its members sometimes call themselves soldiers, it doesn't mean that 50% of courses at the academy would be military courses.

I may be wrong, but I think that even in today's military academies purely 'military' courses comprise significantly less than 50%. The aforementioned Officer Candidate School for people that already have a civilian degree (and I think most officers actually come from OCS, and not from the Academy) - so, just those purely 'military' courses - is, according to wiki, only 12 weeks long.

And even then, a large number of those courses probably aren't 'military' in the sense I suspect you think they are - shooting, manuevers, etc - but more things like: regulations, leadership, discipline and traditions ie. things that every Starfleet officer, whether he's in security, engineering etc. would also need.
 
The academy of Kirk's time and the others’ times might be so vastly different than other than being called “The Academy” they are two totally seperate places.
Yes, a good deal depends on whether we are talking about TOS or the shows that came after. Gene Roddenberry modeled the Enterprise and her crew after traditional navies to give the audience something familiar to relate to (and to make the show an easier sell to network TV). But he was never comfortable with the idea of projecting military power into space. So on Trek TOS, we got a sort of Navy Lite: no saluting, no class separation between officers and enlisted personnel (at least in the original concept, there was no “enlisted” category), a slightly more laid-back atmosphere than we associate with the military. Nonetheless, I always imagined the Starfleet Academy of Kirk's time to be analogous to the West Point or Annapolis of the mid-1960s when the show was created. Except for a few obvious differences, like a higher percentage of female cadets. And aliens.
 
I may be wrong, but I think that even in today's military academies purely 'military' courses comprise significantly less than 50%. The aforementioned Officer Candidate School for people that already have a civilian degree (and I think most officers actually come from OCS, and not from the Academy) - so, just those purely 'military' courses - is, according to wiki, only 12 weeks long.

Yes, OCS is just 90 days long, but that isn't the end of a prospective officer's education - they don't just dump a second lieutenant into the Army after three months. They would go from there to the Officer Basic Course, and then to a school for the branch they are to be commissioned in (i.e. Infantry, Artillery, Communications, etc.) which will vary in length depending on the career field. After that, the officer may attend further training (i.e. the Airborne or air Assault course, Ranger School, etc.).
 
^Just because Starfleet has a military role and its members sometimes call themselves soldiers, it doesn't mean that 50% of courses at the academy would be military courses. It's simply not necessary. Shooting a phaser and learning a few basic maneuvers and contemporary tactics is easy

Really? You know this because, what, you've studied modern combat training techniques and leadership courses? And have extrapolated what kinds of training would be required for combat in 23rd and 24th Century conditions?

Again, there's this tendency to downplay defense-oriented roles and duties and training compared to science. Why?

Because being violent is easy, it's not rocket science, never has been.
 
^Just because Starfleet has a military role and its members sometimes call themselves soldiers, it doesn't mean that 50% of courses at the academy would be military courses. It's simply not necessary. Shooting a phaser and learning a few basic maneuvers and contemporary tactics is easy

Really? You know this because, what, you've studied modern combat training techniques and leadership courses? And have extrapolated what kinds of training would be required for combat in 23rd and 24th Century conditions?

Again, there's this tendency to downplay defense-oriented roles and duties and training compared to science. Why?

Because being violent is easy, it's not rocket science, never has been.

And... how much research have you conducted to reach this conclusion?
 
^Just because Starfleet has a military role and its members sometimes call themselves soldiers, it doesn't mean that 50% of courses at the academy would be military courses. It's simply not necessary. Shooting a phaser and learning a few basic maneuvers and contemporary tactics is easy compared to extensive and time-consuming studying of calculus and physics and whatever else would be required in the 24th century space-faring culture.

Because being violent is easy, it's not rocket science, never has been.

Wow. That's quite some contempt [and fundamental misunderstanding] you've got there for an honorable and ancient profession.
 
The information presented about the inner workings and instructional content of real US military academies has been most enlightening (especially for someone who writes their own Trek stories :rommie:), and I thank those in this thread who have been providing it. It seems that Starfleet Academy and a real academy like West Point have a lot more in common in terms of instructional content than I had thought, which is actually very cool.

My take: Starfleet, as a whole, is essentially a fusion of both "the military" and a scientific/exploratory branch. But even that aspect of it is still conducted in a military fashion; i.e. even the science officers have ranks and some training in military protocols and combat tactics. In any case, it's undeniable that Starfleet is THE primary organization of the Federation as a whole when it comes to military actions and defense.

A lot of people talk about this idea that Kirk was "a soldier", that TOS had no problem referring to Starfleet as the military, and that it was TNG and the other 24th century shows that introduced the silly notion that it isn't. Well... I don't see it. Yes, TNG tries to be more "thoughtful", and there's a greater emphasis on diplomatic solutions, but nowhere on the show did anyone ever say "Oh, and Starfleet is NOT the military, by the way." I will grant that there was a different feel, but it wasn't concrete. And the fact remained, even without something as dramatic and direct as the Dominion war, in TNG when a problem arose that one would send a military unit to handle, who was sent to handle it? Starfleet. So I don't see this massive disconnect between TOS and 24th century Trek with respect to the military status of Starfleet. Well... Except for that one line by Riker in Peak Performance, where he dismisses tactical expertise as a "minor province" in the makeup of a Starfleet captain. That whole scene depicted Riker and Picard as having a certain disdainful "Feh, why do we have to do this uncivilized garbage" attitude toward the tactical training. I ignore this. It's contradicted not only by how important tactical and combat capability is shown to be throughout the show (including in incidents prior to that scene... Q Who, anyone?), but also by later events in that very episode: when the wargame simulation actually begins, the E-D crew demonstrate some keen tactical instincts (especially Riker and his outgunned team on the Hathaway), and it's clear that everyone involved - Picard, Riker, Geordi, Worf, random unnamed goldshirts on both ships - are, in fact, getting a huge kick out of the whole thing.

I think that as one goes through the Academy, your specialties emerge as a combination of what your preferences are, and what comes up during the training (things you are good at that you might not have even known you are good at), but the balance between technical expertise, scientific expertise, and military expertise is not the same across all officers. Worf, for example, clearly had a strong emphasis on combat and tactics, but also still had a high degree of technical expertise as it related to tactical systems. A single ship or station would thus have a mix of people who leaned toward one expertise or another, and some who were well versed in all of them. Enlisted personnel, I would think, would tend to have a much higher percentage of those who specialize very heavily in a specific area, and have minimal expertise in most other areas (though, of course, they could pick up other things through practical experience, the same as an officer could). So, if you were to then look at Starfleet as a whole, you find a careful balance between different specialties, disciplines, and expertise, allowing for a great deal of flexibility and adaptability.

And when you think about it, Starfleet would be able to use the strengths (and cover the weaknesses) of its officers VERY well. There literally thousands upon thousands of postings, between planetside, station, and starship postings. Got an officer that shows a great deal of expertise in hand-to-hand combat and crowd control, but showed no interest or expertise in the sciences and very little in technical areas? Security section of an open-port, commerce-oriented starbase deep in Federation territory. This would mean that not only does Starfleet function better as a whole due to this diversity, it also can afford to be very accommodating when it comes to individual officers requesting certain types of postings, at least in peacetime.
Because being violent is easy, it's not rocket science, never has been.
That's actually really insulting to anyone who has devoted time to becoming good at some form of combat. You do realize that to be good at fighting - whether that refers to hand-to-hand, with melee weapons, with firearms, or large-scale unit or ship tactics - takes skill, right? You can't just learn enough to throw a few punches, then assume you will be able to handle anything that comes your way. In the context of Starfleet, there's going to be a basic, minimum level of training for any officer that graduates from the academy as far as tactics, self-defense, firearms, and other combat-oriented areas (though I could see the minimum training for academy-graduated officers being much more extensive than that for enlisted personnel who do not have a security specialty), with some going beyond that minimum (possibly quite far beyond) depending on their specialty, focus, any prior experience or training they might have had, etc. This wouldn't overwhelm the scientific and technical parts of the curriculum, but would absolutely not be dismissed as "not so important" if Starfleet is the agency called upon to defend the Federation.
 
^Just because Starfleet has a military role and its members sometimes call themselves soldiers, it doesn't mean that 50% of courses at the academy would be military courses. It's simply not necessary. Shooting a phaser and learning a few basic maneuvers and contemporary tactics is easy

Really? You know this because, what, you've studied modern combat training techniques and leadership courses? And have extrapolated what kinds of training would be required for combat in 23rd and 24th Century conditions?

Again, there's this tendency to downplay defense-oriented roles and duties and training compared to science. Why?

Because being violent is easy, it's not rocket science, never has been.

Yeah well, spend a week in self-defense classes and then go fight someone who's had formal training in and graduated from a military academy. Lemme know how that works out for you.
 
Really? You know this because, what, you've studied modern combat training techniques and leadership courses? And have extrapolated what kinds of training would be required for combat in 23rd and 24th Century conditions?

Again, there's this tendency to downplay defense-oriented roles and duties and training compared to science. Why?

Because being violent is easy, it's not rocket science, never has been.

And... how much research have you conducted to reach this conclusion?

Research??? It's called experience.

^Just because Starfleet has a military role and its members sometimes call themselves soldiers, it doesn't mean that 50% of courses at the academy would be military courses. It's simply not necessary. Shooting a phaser and learning a few basic maneuvers and contemporary tactics is easy compared to extensive and time-consuming studying of calculus and physics and whatever else would be required in the 24th century space-faring culture.

Because being violent is easy, it's not rocket science, never has been.

Wow. That's quite some contempt [and fundamental misunderstanding] you've got there for an honorable and ancient profession.


What contempt are you talking about? Honorable and ancient profession...so what? Does that mean that a Major graduating from West Point had it harder than a PhD in physics, architect, or a brain surgeon??? :lol:
 
Really? You know this because, what, you've studied modern combat training techniques and leadership courses? And have extrapolated what kinds of training would be required for combat in 23rd and 24th Century conditions?

Again, there's this tendency to downplay defense-oriented roles and duties and training compared to science. Why?

Because being violent is easy, it's not rocket science, never has been.

Yeah well, spend a week in self-defense classes and then go fight someone who's had formal training in and graduated from a military academy. Lemme know how that works out for you.

You going to a military academy and getting "formal" training wouldn't stand a chance against me in a real fight. Experience trumps training. Military hand to hand training is pretty pathetic right across the board for every military in the world. Utter basics. Starfleet seems to follow this rule as well as seen on screen.
 
EmperorTiberius: please put your testosterone away, there's a good boy. A few of us here have served in various military organisations around the world and assure you that the training and execution of combat technique is far from easy. If you find being violent easy you are either doing something wrong or something about you has gone wrong and I have concern for you and the people around you.

Either way, this chest-beating posturing is both unmanly and pointless - particularly your last post (above). I will not enter into any childish argument with you but ask you to stop; you're just making yourself look silly...
 
When I attended the Academy (class of '47, of course), I majored in Temporal Mechanics and minored in Religions of the Galaxy. My roommate majored in Astrogation and Astrophysics - be was the 'butt' of many inside jokes, of course. Often, crewmates, subordinates, and senior officers were confused by chronometric anomolies and temporal rifts but these were right up my alley. My knowledge and experience afforded me a reputation as being somewhat indispensible in such situations, which helped me move up the ranks a bit faster than many and landed me ultimately in my current assignment - Assistant Director of Starfleets' Temporal Investigations Division. While our work isn't widely known, that is merely a sign of the successful efforts of our many agents.

In the immortal words of George Orwell, "Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past." A genious of a man, although he had no sense of humor whatsoever.
 
EmperorTiberius: please put your testosterone away, there's a good boy. A few of us here have served in various military organisations around the world and assure you that the training and execution of combat technique is far from easy. If you find being violent easy you are either doing something wrong or something about you has gone wrong and I have concern for you and the people around you.

Either way, this chest-beating posturing is both unmanly and pointless - particularly your last post (above). I will not enter into any childish argument with you but ask you to stop; you're just making yourself look silly...


It's not chest-beating. For a chest-beating example, look at your own pathetic post. I made a simple true statement that hurt the pride of a few people who then foolishly took a swipe at me. :rolleyes: I don't care about your pride.

And of course you won't enter any arguments with me because you simply can't refute what I wrote, I'll write it again:

...Does that mean that a Major graduating from West Point had it harder than a PhD in physics, architect, or a brain surgeon???


Being a graduate from West Point is quite a few notches below a lot of top professions, which would be similar to what Starfleet cadets would have to go through to fulfill their largely scientific and exploratory duties, plus engineering knowledge required to run a ship. This is to a large extent supported by onscreen evidence from a lot of episodes. Look at Peak Performance where Riker says that the military part is a small part of a captain's duties and that neither he nor Picard care much about it. Picard actually completely opposed it saying that Starfleet is a scientific and exploratory organization. And this is the captain of the flagship. If you think that military and other studies would be equally represented you are the one who has big problems with logic..

None of you have provided any evidence or logic that shows that military training would be on par with scientific training at the academy. A single course per semester would be enough to learn everything that they need to know withing the context of the ST universe.

training and execution of combat technique is far from easy
Really? :lol: Is shooting a gun harder than learning about Electricity and Magnetism? Which one takes 1 hour of instruction and then short target practice once a week, and which one requires at least a semester of incredible work and countless hours of practice and study?
Is practicing Krav Maga a few times a week the equivalent of advanced programming nowadays?
Is going through small squad tactics just as hard as countless hours of practicing mind numbing advanced calculus, especially seeing as how they already know a great deal of calculus when they're teenagers?
And our knowledge is pathetic. With the huge advances they've made in the 400 years, and huge amounts of knowledge of astronomy, biology, and engineering available and necessary to learn as a basic foundation for deep space operations, it's laughable to think that they can afford to waste time on separate classes for extended and unnecessary military curriculum (which can be learned later on the job) at the expense of necessary subjects.

Get freakin real.
 

...Does that mean that a Major graduating from West Point had it harder than a PhD in physics, architect, or a brain surgeon???

Perhaps not, but the point being argued is your "being violent is easy lol" schtick in regards to combat training, which is just silly. I haven't seen anyone say (although I've admittedly skimmed, but) that it was as mentally demanding as courses you list.

What really makes us roll our eyes is this Internet Tough Guy posturing, going on about how easy it all is and how you could take someone who took the time to train and get experience without breaking a sweat, apparently.
 
You going to a military academy and getting "formal" training wouldn't stand a chance against me in a real fight.
Come on dude... surely you don't think that RyuRoots meant YOU, literally. I don't care if a military academy graduate would, in fact, stand a chance against YOU, personally, in a fight, since you (claim to) have extensive combat experience of some sort. That's not what we were discussing. The point RyuRoots was trying to make (I usually try not to speak for others, but this seems pretty obvious to me, so I'll go out on a limb) was this: Person A has no training and no experience. He goes and takes self-defense classes for two weeks. Person B has no training and no experience. He goes through the full four-year training of Starfleet or a real military academy. Person B is thus going to be MUCH more effective in just about any combat situation than person A.
Experience trumps training.
Experience complements training. Sure, someone with extensive experience but little training might wipe the floor with someone who has completed basic training, but has no experience. On the other hand, someone who has some experience (maybe not as much, but fairly close) AND had extensive training, is going to be that much better. And what about someone who hasn't had military training, but instead taken a proper martial art? Do you seriously think that someone who has studied karate or judo or any number of other arts for years and years, participating in tournaments and holding, say, a 3rd degree black belt (or equivalent)... that person is going to be no match for someone who has had little to no formal training of any kind, but has just gotten in lots of fights?

Military hand to hand training is pretty pathetic right across the board for every military in the world. Utter basics. Starfleet seems to follow this rule as well as seen on screen.
I haven't had military training myself, but besides the people in this thread who have had such training and are refuting you, I personally know someone who has, and can say with certainty that your statement is false. It's not necessarily THE most extensive or efficient way in the world to learn hand-to-hand combat, but it's far from "pathetic". As for what Starfleet does as seen "on screen"... personally, I find that when it comes to hand-to-hand combat, most of what we see on screen is junk. Look at how people move and attack... ever notice how often people strike with two fists laced together? How often security officers try to take on larger, stronger opponents by football tackling them? How when someone gets hit once or has their attack blocked, they kind of freeze like OHSHIT GOT BLOCKED, which gives their opponent plenty of time to deliver several blows? I love Trek, but the fight choreography has (in all of the shows) ranged from "not bad" to "atrocious". So, in my mind, if all of the events of Trek were real, the vast majority of the hand-to-hand fights wouldn't look like they did in the shows.
It's not chest-beating. For a chest-beating example, look at your own pathetic post. I made a simple true statement that hurt the pride of a few people who then foolishly took a swipe at me. :rolleyes: I don't care about your pride.
Only problem is that it's, you know... not.
And of course you won't enter any arguments with me because you simply can't refute what I wrote, I'll write it again:

...Does that mean that a Major graduating from West Point had it harder than a PhD in physics, architect, or a brain surgeon???
Uh... ok. Here is where you just went completely off track. Who brought up the idea that combat training was SUBSTANTIALLY HARDER than getting a PhD or similar credentials? No one. Well, ok, one person did: you. None of us arguing against you ever said it was way harder than technical or scientific training. Only that your assertion that it is RIDICULOUSLY EASY was false.
Look at Peak Performance where Riker says that the military part is a small part of a captain's duties and that neither he nor Picard care much about it. Picard actually completely opposed it saying that Starfleet is a scientific and exploratory organization. And this is the captain of the flagship. If you think that military and other studies would be equally represented you are the one who has big problems with logic..
Clearly you didn't read my first post in this thread (granted, it was huge, as all my posts tend to be :rommie:):
That whole scene depicted Riker and Picard as having a certain disdainful "Feh, why do we have to do this uncivilized garbage" attitude toward the tactical training. I ignore this. It's contradicted not only by how important tactical and combat capability is shown to be throughout the show (including in incidents prior to that scene... Q Who, anyone?), but also by later events in that very episode: when the wargame simulation actually begins, the E-D crew demonstrate some keen tactical instincts (especially Riker and his outgunned team on the Hathaway), and it's clear that everyone involved - Picard, Riker, Geordi, Worf, random unnamed goldshirts on both ships - are, in fact, getting a huge kick out of the whole thing.
So yeah. Granted, not everyone agrees when it comes to which piece of on-screen evidence should be followed when there is a contradiction, but for my money, the body of evidence existing across multiple shows (especially DS9) that combat and tactical training is not "minor" for command-level officers, as well as the wargame sequence that occurs in the very same episode that is obviously enjoyed by most of the main characters, trumps that one scene.
None of you have provided any evidence or logic that shows that military training would be on par with scientific training at the academy. A single course per semester would be enough to learn everything that they need to know withing the context of the ST universe.
So, this laid-back, "Meh, it's not that important, just a course here and there will do" approach to combat techniques is true not just of the Federation, but of EVERYONE IN THE GALAXY in Trek. Right? After all, the Federation, throughout the various Trek shows, has stood on generally equal footing (in terms of both overall military effectiveness, and single soldier vs. soldier combat) with Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, Tzenkethi (whoever the hell THEY are... we don't know much about them except that there was a war with them, in which Sisko participated), Breen, freaking Jem'Hadar... I guess since Starfleet officers were seen being able to defend themselves against Jem'Hadar soldiers (and I DON'T just mean main characters, thank you), the "genetically engineered for combat, bred for war, VICTORY IS LIFE" Jem'Hadar must not get more then the "pathetic basics" of combat training either!
 
. . . My knowledge and experience afforded me a reputation as being somewhat indispensible in such situations, which helped me move up the ranks a bit faster than many and landed me ultimately in my current assignment - Assistant Director of Starfleets' Temporal Investigations Division.
So YOU'RE the guy in charge of those stuffy, humorless, anal-retentive Temporal Investigations bureaucrats!
 
Went looking around and found this document:
http://www.sfi.org/docs/cq/cq103.pdf

For this thread, I commend your attention to the article on pages 30-33 of the likend .pdf file. It is one of the best written pieces I've seen on the rank structure of Star Fleet and the differences in the roles of enlisted personnel and officers therein that I've seen to date.
 
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