Why was the Confederacy of Independent Systems the bad guys...

[Kegg]

Also the CIS was dominated by a bunch of big businesses (Trade Federation, Banking Clan, Techno Union) that had no interest in freedom for the average citizen.

Bingo. It was building on the idea in Phantom Menace, where the villains were corporate interests run amuck. Here it's just a lot of evil corporate interests banded together. So yeah, they're basically bad guys, much in the Avatar manner.

Temis however is also right: They were boring. The problem with the political focus in the prequel films is it was fairly ill-defined and unimagivatively executed. Who cares if the trade routes are being taxed if the films have no interest in clarifying the matter?

 

[Neroon]

As to the subject of the thread itself, it seems a little thin on the sci-fi aspects. However, so long as it stays on that keep - and not on any non-sff agendas - it's cool.

OK, never disagreed with a mod before, but WTF? A thread talking about the motivation of a fictional nation in STAR WARS might not be suitable for the science fiction and fantasy thread?

Comments regarding moderator actions need to go to PM, please.

 

[Gojirob]

Lucas tried to give the impression that there are people with legit gripes and some who prolly just gripe to gripe out there and that they lend aid and comfort to the CIS. Yet these 'heroes on both sides' are never seen. We only see, even in SW:CW animated, systems tricked or forcefully occupied, if their leaders aren't already as corrupt as Gunray. Do we ever see these people fighting Rex, Obi, Ahsoka and Anakin? We see ditherers (pardon the jingoistic phrase) the corrupt and the foolish. We see lots and lots and LOTS of droids. I do see some analogue to people with gripes being used by the wealthy and powerful, from astroturf groups to the Nazis. But in some respects, SW dares not show them, because unlike droids, they could be talked to, broken off from the CIS, shown what and who was backing them, and like that.

They are treated as the bad guys because they really were the bad guys, and this is all they ever acted like, veneer aside.

 

[Anwar]

Yeah, Star Wars has never exactly been into the whole moral ambiguity thing. It's better they stick to the black/white side.

 

[FluffyUnbound]

The Confederacy's leadership included and harboured war criminals like Nute Gunray; gladly participated in political assassination; and spent years illegally building up armies and weapons, including weapons of terror and mass destruction like the Death Star project, in anticipation of overthrowing the Republic--there was never any intention to peacefully sue for freedom, or of coexisting with even a dimished Republic; conquest was their goal, a war of aggression their tool. One of their first acts as a 'state' was to stage a spectacle execution--without trial, due process, or even a declaration of war--three government officials or representatives thereof whose highest crime could only have been trespassing. Like its historical counterpart, the Confederacy was an illegitimate, criminal entity from its inception, cloaking itself in rhetoric of freedom that poorly masked its underlying nefarious practices.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

I now see the reason why the mod was concerned that perhaps this thread would turn out to be inappropriate for this subforum.

Because it's hard to discuss the issues raised by Trent without saying something like, "If the Confederacy had not been defending slavery, they would have been in the right. Or at least would not have been so obviously in the wrong." And then it turns into a TNZ thread.

Because the Separatists in the prequels are kind of like Confederates without slavery - and the absence of slavery changes the moral equation of their rebellion a bit. Then they're just members of a small polity that no longer wanted to be part of a big polity - and it's hard for me to just automatically say "That makes them wrong!"

gladly participated in political assassination

If you start calling yourself Queen, and line yourself up with the large polity trying to stomp on the small polity that wants to break off from you, it's not entirely unreasonable for your opponents to regard you as a legitimate target.

spent years illegally building up armies and weapons, including weapons of terror and mass destruction like the Death Star project, in anticipation of overthrowing the Republic

Well, sure. If you're going to rebel against a galactic superstate defended by superbeings with superpowers, you should undertake a little preparation beforehand.

One of their first acts as a 'state' was to stage a spectacle execution--without trial, due process, or even a declaration of war--three government officials or representatives thereof whose highest crime could only have been trespassing.

Again, sure. That's what a revolution is - you attack the current government until it gives up. I'll give you the "public execution" part - they should have simply spontaneously attacked all the government officials in the vicinity.

Also, I was under the impression from TPM that the Separatist movement had been underway for some time, and the Republic had already been cracking down on it. Do we even get to see how the conflict started, and who did what to whom?

And I don't have an answer for the "known war criminal" criticism. I have to give you that one.

 

[TheBrew]

I thought that it was made quite obvious that the CIS weren't bad guys and the New Republic weren't good guys in the traditional sense. They were just pawns in Sidious's war against the Jedi and his coup for galactic control.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

As to the subject of the thread itself, it seems a little thin on the sci-fi aspects. However, so long as it stays on that keep - and not on any non-sff agendas - it's cool.

OK, never disagreed with a mod before, but WTF? A thread talking about the motivation of a fictional nation in STAR WARS might not be suitable for the science fiction and fantasy thread?

Comments regarding moderator actions need to go to PM, please.

That's not what this was, though, is it now?

 

[RandyS]

I thought that it was made quite obvious that the CIS weren't bad guys and the New Republic weren't good guys in the traditional sense. They were just pawns in Sidious's war against the Jedi and his coup for galactic control.

Hey OP, you still around? The answer to your question is right here.

 

[Neroon]

That's not what this was, though, is it now?

If you're serious about getting an answer, you know how to pursue it.

Getting back to this thread......

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Temis, are you also one of those crazy people that wasn't thrilled at the opening crawl of Episode I as it talked about taxing trade routes and endless Senate debates? Because that stuff just made me go NUTS! It was like C-Span, only on Star Wars! Yeah, who needs a timeless battle between the forces of good and evil? Who needs to follow the adventures of a plucky little band of freedom fighters vs. literally the Evil Empire? No I want me some trade dispute senate action!

Personally, I found that stuff very fascinating. Doesn't make for a good movie, but it's a cool idea for the politics of a fictional science fiction universe.

 

[USS Avenger]

Temis, are you also one of those crazy people that wasn't thrilled at the opening crawl of Episode I as it talked about taxing trade routes and endless Senate debates? Because that stuff just made me go NUTS! It was like C-Span, only on Star Wars! Yeah, who needs a timeless battle between the forces of good and evil? Who needs to follow the adventures of a plucky little band of freedom fighters vs. literally the Evil Empire? No I want me some trade dispute senate action!

Personally, I found that stuff very fascinating. Doesn't make for a good movie, but it's a cool idea for the politics of a fictional science fiction universe.

Actually, I find that stuff interesting too. I have degrees in Political Science and International Relations, so I love seeing the "politics" of various Sci-fi or alternate history universes. I was commenting more on the fact that it didn't really play out well on the big screen. When compared to the opening crawl of "A New Hope", the one for "Phantom Menace" just seems like a dud.

 

[Quantum]

I thought that it was made quite obvious that the CIS weren't bad guys and the New Republic weren't good guys in the traditional sense. They were just pawns in Sidious's war against the Jedi and his coup for galactic control.

Hey OP, you still around? The answer to your question is right here.

I have been following the thread. I was aware that both sides where controlled by one man. But the "bad guys" or the two where the seppies..

 

[Gryffindorian]

The Sith work in devious and insidious ways, manipulating both sides.

 

[Sci]

In the fictional Clone Wars of the Star Wars Universe the Confederacy of Independent Systems or the Separatist if you will where the bad guys. Seems to me all they wanted was to escapce a Federal government that over taxed them, and was possible oppressive and corrupt.

There's no evidence that they were over-taxed, just that the economic elites didn't want to pay taxes. And, really, the C.I.S.'s leaders included corporations with their own private armies -- do you really think they were out to protect anyone's rights except those of their corporate elite?

It was the same thing the United States did to the United Kingdom, and the same thing the Southern States did during the U.S. civil war.

Whoah, there. Just one second. The Confederate States of America was explicitly formed to protect the institution of human slavery from the perceived threat of the presidency of Abraham Lincoln. And if you think that isn't the case, read the Southern states' own declarations of why they seceded -- they say it was to protect slavery.

 

[Trent Roman]

Because the Separatists in the prequels are kind of like Confederates without slavery - and the absence of slavery changes the moral equation of their rebellion a bit.

Not 'kind of'. The name deliberately recalled that conflict (as did that of their opponents, the 'Grand Army').

As far as slavery goes, however, I think both are guilty. The CIS was made up of plutocracies, not democracies, and they employed vast droid armies (though the Republic used droids too, just not militarily). On the Republic side, the clone army are essentially slaves--and while Republic leadership (other than Sidious, obviously) didn't intend for their existence, they certainly didn't let ethics get in the way of using them. If this was the only issue, they'd be morally equivalent.

Then they're just members of a small polity that no longer wanted to be part of a big polity - and it's hard for me to just automatically say "That makes them wrong!"

No one's ever said that. Hell, I'm Québéçois; I'm extensively familiar with exactly that sort of rhetoric of nationalist revendication because the province has had a vigorous (and, on occasion, nearly succesful) seperatist movement for decades. The key difference is the use of violence: it is illegitimate unless the larger polity is itself violent and oppressive. The Revolutionary War was justified because the smaller polities had no representation, because England imposed pernicious practices on the colonies such as the Quartering Act, and because it enforced those policies with political violence against civilians (i.e. the Boston Massacre). The Republic's 'crimes' are bloated, inefficient bureaucracy and corruption--and while those can be legitimate grounds to split off, they are not grounds for aggression unless met with violence, which there is no evidence ever occured in these disputes until CIS began their harrying. The Republic didn't even have a standing army.

If you start calling yourself Queen, and line yourself up with the large polity trying to stomp on the small polity that wants to break off from you, it's not entirely unreasonable for your opponents to regard you as a legitimate target.

1) Amidala didn't 'start calling herself Queen', Naboo has a longstanding tradition of elected monarchs. Her people choose to call her queen. 2) That was the first movie, anyway; the assassination attempt at the beginnig of Clones was against a Senator, an official member of government. I know Vermont has a mild secessionist movement; do you think Bernie Sanders is a legitimate target for assassination? It's all the more ridicoulous in that Amidala was against militarization and for a peaceful solution, despite the repeated attempts on her life, she wasn't lining up to stomp on anybody. Of course, calling it a political assassination might have been a misnomer, since the real reason for the attempts on her life was part of the deal the Seperatist leadership had with Nute Gunray in exchange for the Trade Federation joining up: he had a vendetta against her over his failed illegal invasion of Naboo in the first film, wanted revenge, and the Seperatists obliged--which makes them all criminals.

Well, sure. If you're going to rebel against a galactic superstate defended by superbeings with superpowers, you should undertake a little preparation beforehand.

Which is precisely the point, isn't it? The Seperatists had been plotting violence from the outset. They are the guilty party in a war of aggression.

Again, sure. That's what a revolution is - you attack the current government until it gives up. I'll give you the "public execution" part - they should have simply spontaneously attacked all the government officials in the vicinity.

That's unspeakably barbarous. Modern, democratic states have no business participating in wanton killing. (But, of course, that's part of the problem: CIS wasn't a democracy, but a group of corporate interests. Much like Enron, Lehman Brothers and Morgan Stanley deciding they've had enough of regulators and hiring Blackwater to start attacking government officials.)

Do we even get to see how the conflict started, and who did what to whom?

The conflict started in the movie. "Begun, the Clone Wars have."

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Quantum]

In the fictional Clone Wars of the Star Wars Universe the Confederacy of Independent Systems or the Separatist if you will where the bad guys. Seems to me all they wanted was to escapce a Federal government that over taxed them, and was possible oppressive and corrupt.

There's no evidence that they were over-taxed, just that the economic elites didn't want to pay taxes. And, really, the C.I.S.'s leaders included corporations with their own private armies -- do you really think they were out to protect anyone's rights except those of their corporate elite?

It was the same thing the United States did to the United Kingdom, and the same thing the Southern States did during the U.S. civil war.

Whoah, there. Just one second. The Confederate States of America was explicitly formed to protect the institution of human slavery from the perceived threat of the presidency of Abraham Lincoln. And if you think that isn't the case, read the Southern states' own declarations of why they seceded -- they say it was to protect slavery.

Despite rosy recollections of a greater past, the Galactic Republic succumbed into undeniable decay. Its cumbersome bureaucracy slowed down any attempts at reform, and too many of its constituents had grown corrupt and complacent to enact any change. A feeling of disenfranchisement grew in the galaxy, particularly in outlying systems where heavy taxation was not balanced by improved services.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/organization/cis/

 

[DarKush]

In the fictional Clone Wars of the Star Wars Universe the Confederacy of Independent Systems or the Separatist if you will where the bad guys. Seems to me all they wanted was to escapce a Federal government that over taxed them, and was possible oppressive and corrupt. It was the same thing the United States did to the United Kingdom, and the same thing the Southern States did during the U.S. civil war. So whats the deal?

In the American South this so called great way of life many Southerners defended was predicated on the enslavement of millions of human beings, so I don't consider it much a war of liberation as a part of a larger regional and economic battle between the North and the South. Of course Southern planters cloaked their greed and ambition in 'loftier' terms but the South was just as corrupt, even more so with the continuance of human slavery, than the North.

On to Star Wars, though GL said there were heroes on both sides in the ROTS scrawl, so far we've only seen evidence of one person, Tofen Vane, in the recent Clone Wars comic arc, and even he was motivated by revenge. I think GL, etc. have done a much better job showing or hinting at the corruption of the Republic than in showing how that might have motivated some people to want to leave the Republic. Instead most of the CIS side has been represented by Dooku, Trade Federation, and Grevious, and none of these guys have pure motives or noble aims.

 

[Peter the Younger]

The thing that really bugged me about the CIS - besides the fact that they are lame - is that they are ostensibly part of the Republic before the conflict begins. So the "Galactic Civil War" that follows should really be the Second Galactic Civil War.

Personally, I always preferred Tim Zahn's suggestion that the Clone Masters were the villains of the Clone Wars; a more mysterious, subversive threat that caused the Republic to slip further and further into reactionary paranoia. (Which would also avoid the huge cop-out of making clones of all the stormtroopers.)

 

[Base_Delta_Zero]

The Confederacy's leadership included and harboured war criminals like Nute Gunray; gladly participated in political assassination; and spent years illegally building up armies and weapons, including weapons of terror and mass destruction like the Death Star project, in anticipation of overthrowing the Republic--there was never any intention to peacefully sue for freedom, or of coexisting with even a dimished Republic; conquest was their goal, a war of aggression their tool. One of their first acts as a 'state' was to stage a spectacle execution--without trial, due process, or even a declaration of war--three government officials or representatives thereof whose highest crime could only have been trespassing. Like its historical counterpart, the Confederacy was an illegitimate, criminal entity from its inception, cloaking itself in rhetoric of freedom that poorly masked its underlying nefarious practices.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Yeah, cause it's not like those three "government officials" illegally entered the sovereign territory of a legitimate nation state, one to conduct espionage, the other two to rescue him, murdered dozens of its citizens in the process and destroyed hugely expensive pieces of government property.

Anakin, Padme and Obi Wan weren't innocent hikers who stupidly strayed into a paradoid hostile government's territory by mistake. Their actions condemned them.

And who are you to say "due process" wasn't followed? I don't remember the Geonosians discussing just how their judicial system works in throw away dialogue. Seems you're making the assumption that an alien species of giant flying termites from another galaxy are working with a copy of American civil liberties.

Then the Jedi arrived in force and threatened the local leadership (Poggle the Lesser), escalating the situation. Engaging and killing the Geonosian defenders made it an act of war, which the Jedi followed up with an even more blatant act of war by landing an invasion army and occupying the planet.

The Republic started the Clone Wars, not the CIS. Regardless of the what we all knew the Sith were intending, the CIS plans, from the dialogue in the big conspiracy meeting, sounded a whole lot more like "the Republic will have to accept our succession with the massive armies we've gathered" and less like "muhahaha, now we may conquer the galaxy!"

 

[hyzmarca]

Which is precisely the point, isn't it? The Seperatists had been plotting violence from the outset. They are the guilty party in a war of aggression.

Speak softly and carry a big stick and you will go far. Not country that has a standing army plans to invade Poland. There is no evidence that the CIS intended to start a war. The Republic did strike first.

(Due Process aside, the public execution was legitimate as those captured were spies. It has been long held that captured spies are subject to any and all legal penalties associated with the crime of espionage in the jurisdiction where they are captured, usually death. They are not subject to the protections afforded to POWs.)

Both sides committed grievous war crimes. Even Obi Wan would be executed (or at least imprisoned in the Hague) if Star Wars happened in the real world. And no one ever thought anything of it. I assume that it is a cultural issue. The rules of warfare as we know them simply don't exist in the Star Wars universe. For this reason I have a hard time condemning the separatists.

In the fictional Clone Wars of the Star Wars Universe the Confederacy of Independent Systems or the Separatist if you will where the bad guys. Seems to me all they wanted was to escapce a Federal government that over taxed them, and was possible oppressive and corrupt.

There's no evidence that they were over-taxed, just that the economic elites didn't want to pay taxes. And, really, the C.I.S.'s leaders included corporations with their own private armies -- do you really think they were out to protect anyone's rights except those of their corporate elite?

There is a reason why no one taxes trade across intra-national borders in real life. Because it is a great way to screw everyone over). The tarrifs implemented by the Senate were not only insane (they were essentially taxing trade between member worlds) and unprecedented (they established the tariffs illegally in what was explicitly a free trade zone) they were designed specifically to screw over the worlds that relied on the trade lanes that were being taxed, very few of which were controlled by corporate interests.

Then they're just members of a small polity that no longer wanted to be part of a big polity - and it's hard for me to just automatically say "That makes them wrong!"

No one's ever said that. Hell, I'm Québéçois; I'm extensively familiar with exactly that sort of rhetoric of nationalist revendication because the province has had a vigorous (and, on occasion, nearly succesful) seperatist movement for decades. The key difference is the use of violence: it is illegitimate unless the larger polity is itself violent and oppressive. The Revolutionary War was justified because the smaller polities had no representation, because England imposed pernicious practices on the colonies such as the Quartering Act, and because it enforced those policies with political violence against civilians (i.e. the Boston Massacre). The Republic's 'crimes' are bloated, inefficient bureaucracy and corruption--and while those can be legitimate grounds to split off, they are not grounds for aggression unless met with violence, which there is no evidence ever occured in these disputes until CIS began their harrying. The Republic didn't even have a standing army.

The Republic had Jedi, which is far worse than any standing army, and deploying them was their standard tactic in any hairy negotiation. If you sit down and try to negotiate with a Jedi you will give him everything that he wants, without exception, no matter how unreasonable his demands are and you will get nothing in return and you'll actually think that you won the negotiation and came out even better than you expected. This is because the Jedi can and will mind-rape you into compliance unless you are lucky enough to be a member of a small handful of species which are resistant to it. And if you are then they have lightsabers.