Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILERS

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

I've always viewed the Time Lords as assholes.

 

[Starkers]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

I think the Timelords are a people who have been at the top of the tree for a long time, had a superior culture and technology longer than most anyone else, and as such have all the arrogance that goes along with that. Their final solution to the Time War was extreme yes, but how enlightened a society would you have to be to actively allow yourselve to die out to save the universe?

The episodes really did cover this stuff, look at the end of Waters Of Mars.

Exactly - this entire issue is in fact the "arc" of the Specials season -the arrogance of the Time Lord.

In "The Next Doctor," 10 is faced with a man who desperately wants to be the Doctor because to be the Doctor is such a wonderful thing, and who gets the whole of London cheering that the Doctor is a hero and a saviour. This boosts 10's ego after a breakdown in "Journey's End."

In "Planet of the Dead," there's another fanboy telling him "you're bloody fantastic, you are." The story ends with 10 first of all sticking to the rules by turning Christina over to the police. But then changes his mind and decides he's above the law, and uses his power to set her free with a new toy she absolutely should not have.

"The Waters of Mars" is completely about this - the dichotomy between knowing he has to power to change things, and knowing that he shouldn't. He finally decides he's above all the rules of time and space, that those rules don't apply to him, and that he can do whatever the hell he wants, regardless of the effects on "the little people" (who really ought to be grateful for his help, shouldn't they?) because there's no-one with the power to stop him.

And finally in "The End of Time," we get the ultimate end-point of that mindset. The Time Lords consider themselves above the rules because, as you say, they've been at the top of the tree for so long and no-one can tell them "no." And confronted with a whole planet's-worth of arrogant Time Lords, he realizes that he's become as bad as they were, and he has to stop both them, and himself.

Thats quite a good analysis of the specials, the Next Doctor and Planet of the Dead fit a lot better taking those points into account.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

I concur. Excellent analysis, lvsxy808. I still don't like "Planet of the Dead" but now it doesn't feel completely useless.

 

[Captain Pike]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

I dunno. I always liked the idea that the Doctor himself is not the be-all and end-all of cosmic morality. That there is someone higher that he must answer to if need be.

I think Russell went a bit too far in making them villains, though it was a seed that was sown first by Robert Holmes. I don't think Bob liked them to be quite honest and set about taking revenge for being saddled with the task of writing them.

So now we have bad-egg Timelords. :/ Not overjoyed about it, I must say..

 

[Sci]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

I would point out that one of the implications I picked up from "The End of Time, Part Two" was that it seemed like the Time Lord population was already greatly reduced. We know from "The Sound of Drums" that the Daleks had apparently captured something Gallifreyan called the Cruciform before the Master fled to the Year 100 Trillion, and in "End of Time," we saw Dalek ships that were crashed right into what looked like a ruined Time Lord Citadel, with smoke visible even as the Lord President walked to the High Council meeting. And we only saw maybe a hundred or so other Time Lords that Rassilon addressed after he finished meeting with the High Council.

So, the impression I really got was that those hundred or so Time Lords were the last ones left.

 

[Starkers]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

^I'd agree, there was a bit of a Berlin in 1945 feel to the place - the only difference being you imagine the Dalek's home (assuming Skaro was not reborn like Rassilon) was literally in the same state. These were people who'd been fighting for, well for eternity I guess. Worth noting as well they're not fighting an enemy who would accept surrender, or they could even negotiate a truce with (I'm really glad RTD didn't go with the idea of the Daleks ascending as well) I'm guessing they weren't exactly thinking straight.

 

[Jax]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

GOOD/EVIL is just a point of view so you can never say The Timelords are black n white bad guys but from my point of view being a human on Earth, I would call any species evil which are willing to destroy the universe in which I live in.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

I've always viewed the Time Lords as assholes.

Exactly. There had to be a good reason for the Doctor to continue running away from them, and violating their "doctrines".

As the Doctor explained, he chose to see Gallifrey and the Time Lords through rose-colored brainy specs after both had gone. Often when the Doctor went too far, been too arrogant like in "Waters of Mars", he'd retched and realized that he had acted no better then the very Time Lords he locked in a single moment of time.

Come to think about it, that's one of the things that I really like about RTD's run--that the Doctor can and does occasionally make mistakes, that he isn't a perfect god, just a lonely one. The Doctor should be mysterious and attractive, but still have an air of sadness and fright surrounding him.

 

[Sci]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

As the Doctor explained, he chose to see Gallifrey and the Time Lords through rose-colored brainy specs after both had gone. Often when the Doctor went too far, been too arrogant like in "Waters of Mars", he'd retched and realized that he had acted no better then the very Time Lords he locked in a single moment of time.

I don't think the time lock is just that -- the impression I get is that the Doctor killed them all, and that the "time lock" is something that caused history to be re-written so that the Time Lords and Daleks never even existed to most of the outside universe. I view it as a sort of alternate timeline bubble.

 

[diankra]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

As the Doctor explained, he chose to see Gallifrey and the Time Lords through rose-colored brainy specs after both had gone. Often when the Doctor went too far, been too arrogant like in "Waters of Mars", he'd retched and realized that he had acted no better then the very Time Lords he locked in a single moment of time.

I don't think the time lock is just that -- the impression I get is that the Doctor killed them all, and that the "time lock" is something that caused history to be re-written so that the Time Lords and Daleks never even existed to most of the outside universe. I view it as a sort of alternate timeline bubble.

I'd say that the time lock is something that - after a time war fought by altering and re-altering history (there's that Time Lady's comment about people on the front line dying and being reborn and dying again, over and over) - closes out the Daleks' and Time Lords' [wartime?] interventions into history so they can't be redone again.