Was "Deconstruction of Falling Stars an Alternative Ending?

[Christopher]

^All of that sounds good as far as it goes, except: Sheridan actually did die exactly 20 years later. Sheridan was resurrected by Lorien at the beginning of 2261, and "Sleeping in Light" took place in 2281. Twenty years exactly. And that tells me that JMS wasn't thinking any of these things you're talking about. He just decided that Lorien's life-energy transfer gave Sheridan 20 years more to live, period. And that's what I find simplistic.

 

[trevanian]

Clearly, you've never read up on any of the hundreds of situations best summed up with, "I never want to see that SOB on this lot again... unless we need him!" that characterize the way Hollywood has ALWAYS operated (which might also explain why Harlan Ellison has been invited to write so many STAR TREK films ... )

Well I have lived in Hollywood for about 10 years now so I don't have zero experience in this area. The fact remains that Joe is the one that made the initial decision for Michael to leave, which Michael also agreed to, a fact confirmed by all sides ten times over.

And DC Fontana stated in print more than once -- you can look through 80s-era CFQs in the letters column to see one of those references -- that she never wrote a word of CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER, but ultimately she finally owned up to it, well over a quarter-century later. Up till that time, most journalists had to accept the old same three gunmen, 'it was Carabatsos and Coon and GR' bit.

There has been quite a bit punted back and forth about JMS and B5, whether in respect to if DS9 borrowed from it, whether a copy of the 5 yr arc bible was in an unlocked drawer in his desk the whole time, and of course the O'Hare/Sinclair business. With many of the stories on B5's first year seemingly focusing on JMS applauding or defending O'Hare, the sudden reversal seemed (and seems) a little GalileoRecant to me, and as such might have come from the Church of Warner.

And not to belabor the point, but when the truth isn't good or favorable enough, 'print the legend' seems to have become a universal in our time (if it wasn't always the case.) So if something doesn't feel right (regardless of who is saying it is so), I think questioning it is absolutely legit.

 

[Snaploud]

^All of that sounds good as far as it goes, except: Sheridan actually did die exactly 20 years later. Sheridan was resurrected by Lorien at the beginning of 2261, and "Sleeping in Light" took place in 2281. Twenty years exactly. And that tells me that JMS wasn't thinking any of these things you're talking about. He just decided that Lorien's life-energy transfer gave Sheridan 20 years more to live, period. And that's what I find simplistic.

There's such a thing as suspension of disbelief, but if you really want a rationalization:

We're not just talking about life energy. Lorien's gift is essentially a life-fuel (continually regenerating Sheridan's cells for a limited period of time). That fuel's efficiency is likely directly related to Sheridan's biology.

Current science indicates that the human body goes through cycles directly related to its environment. Our circadian rhythm is a result of the Earth's rotation, so it's not a huge leap to think that the yearly change in seasons is also a biological factor (an evolutionary reality so ingrained in humanity that it impacts Sheridan's bodily functions even without being on Earth).

Lorien's nanites were able to get Sheridan through twenty of those biological cycles (or years) but not able to begin a new one.

Or Lorien's knowledge is simply so superior that he was able to calculate the useful life of the nanites, and random chance (or fate) placed that useful life at precisely 20 years. [There may have even been a higher power at work.]

 

[JoeD80]

and of course the O'Hare/Sinclair business. With many of the stories on B5's first year seemingly focusing on JMS applauding or defending O'Hare, the sudden reversal seemed (and seems) a little GalileoRecant to me, and as such might have come from the Church of Warner.

Joe never reversed his position on defending O'Hare at any point. He always had good things to say about him, and Michael did the conventions for the entire five year run. The story has NEVER changed, always been the same from both Joe and Michael.

And that tells me that JMS wasn't thinking any of these things you're talking about. He just decided that Lorien's life-energy transfer gave Sheridan 20 years more to live, period. And that's what I find simplistic.

Except as quoted a few times now, "barring injury and illness" *was* in the script. Sheridan managed to make it. It happens sometimes.

 

[Christopher]

And I see that just as lip service to credibility, having no bearing on the actual storytelling intent. Besides, as I said, human longevity is affected by far more factors than just injury or illness. Nobody here seems to be understanding just how complex a process the life of a multicellular organism truly is.

 

[RoJoHen]

And I see that just as lip service to credibility, having no bearing on the actual storytelling intent. Besides, as I said, human longevity is affected by far more factors than just injury or illness. Nobody here seems to be understanding just how complex a process the life of a multicellular organism truly is.

We do. We just don't care enough to let it bother us.

 

[Mistral]

And I see that just as lip service to credibility, having no bearing on the actual storytelling intent. Besides, as I said, human longevity is affected by far more factors than just injury or illness. Nobody here seems to be understanding just how complex a process the life of a multicellular organism truly is.

First, I think you underestimate our comprehension levels. Sure, life is a complicated biological manifestation. That isn't to say that a technology which(as part of the show's fundamental assumptions) is centuries beyond ours couldn't have a clearer vision of how that process works. On the contrary, even the Human medical technology would be as far beyond our current knowledge base as our current knowledge is beyond what, say, Leonardo Da Vinci knew to be true. As for the capabilities of a race(Lorien's) millions of years older-you keep arguing that Sheridan's life extension was an unrealistic cop-out by JMS but I think it was supposed to be a way to drive home that even though Lorien didn't look too different from us his race had long ago mastered the fundamentals of life on a comprehension level far beyond our own. Seriously, you keep scoffing at the solution JMS came up with as "unrealistic" and "lip service to credibility" but how was he supposed to portray this vast difference in knowledge to the viewer? In a burst of ST technobabble? Lorien's race is beyond TNG, it seemed to me-far beyond. The explanation given made sense in context. How would a modern man explain the gallium-arsenide three layer microchip etching process to a person from the past who's idea of high tech was blacksmithing? JMS faced the same issue and wisely chose not to bury the viewer in a technological explanation that, even if it made sense, would either bore, confuse, or bewilder the average viewer. I really don't see why you are so adamant about this point, Christopher. Sure, with hindsight there may have been a better way to present the situation but JMS didn't do too bad in my estimation.

 

[Christopher]

^You're still not getting my point. Some things are random. That means they are by definition impossible to predict. Ultimate knowledge of a particular science does not give you the ability to predict the future perfectly. On the contrary, the more we learn about the universe, the more we understand how impossible perfect prediction is. Modern quantum physics gives us a far more advanced knowledge of the universe than Isaac Newton had, but while Newton believe the universe was perfectly deterministic and its future could be exactly predicted with enough information, our far greater knowledge tells us that it's impossible due to quantum indeterminacy, chaos theory, and the like. The more you know about the universe, the more you become aware of its mechanisms for uncertainty, chaos, and randomness. So a more enlightened science would be less likely to contain simple "This will happen at X time" predictions than a less enlightened science that's less aware of the uncertainties involved. A more enlightened science will be able to give a more informed estimate of the uncertainty around the peak of the bell curve.

Only the ignorant assume they can know everything. A fundamental part of wisdom is recognizing the limits to your knowledge.

 

[Mistral]

Of course there's a randomness to the universe. Sheridan could have stepped in front of a "ground car" or whatever two years after Lorien brought him back and died right there and then. The ability to predict his 20 years of further life was based on the idea that that was the span he had left. As others have pointed out, barring the unexpected, Lorien had given Sheridan 20 extra years. The complexity of the human biosystem was comprehensible to Lorien in a general way despite his unfamiliarity with Humans as a specific race and that's what the predicted time left was based on-the effects of his process on that biosystem. That he could acurately predict the time falls within the advanced knowledge his race possesed.That Sheridan didn't step in front of a Star Fury piloted by a drunk was the author's conceit. There's the plot device, if you will. Chaos theory wasn't applied to the issue because, by JMS's basic explanation, it was a non-factor. Lorien's knowledge base made a correct prediction possible.

Another part of wisdom is knowing that even the dearest held beliefs should be questioned when they run contrary to the facts at hand. An open mind allows ideas in.

Gotta go to a seminar now-I'll return to this later.

 

[Neroon]

Only the ignorant assume they can know everything. A fundamental part of wisdom is recognizing the limits to your knowledge.

What if the person in question has a greater amount of that wisdom, has higher limits... someone such as Lorien?

 

[Reverend]

I can't believe this is still being discussed. Lorien filled Sheridan's cells up with magical nanonullentropy beans that go off after two decades and when they stop, so does he. How is this any less credible than a giant piece of scaffolding that can punch a hole in the universe, "soul hunters" or a galaxy full of mostly bipedal humanoids? Yes it's a conceit, but it's within the established bounds of the fictional universe.

Only the ignorant assume they can know everything. A fundamental part of wisdom is recognizing the limits to your knowledge.

What if the person in question has a greater amount of that wisdom, has higher limits... someone such as Lorien?

Exactly. With a being like Lorien, all preconceptions and assumptions go right out the window.

 

[Jan]

^You're still not getting my point. Some things are random. That means they are by definition impossible to predict. Ultimate knowledge of a particular science does not give you the ability to predict the future perfectly. On the contrary, the more we learn about the universe, the more we understand how impossible perfect prediction is. Modern quantum physics gives us a far more advanced knowledge of the universe than Isaac Newton had, but while Newton believe the universe was perfectly deterministic and its future could be exactly predicted with enough information, our far greater knowledge tells us that it's impossible due to quantum indeterminacy, chaos theory, and the like. The more you know about the universe, the more you become aware of its mechanisms for uncertainty, chaos, and randomness. So a more enlightened science would be less likely to contain simple "This will happen at X time" predictions than a less enlightened science that's less aware of the uncertainties involved. A more enlightened science will be able to give a more informed estimate of the uncertainty around the peak of the bell curve.

Only the ignorant assume they can know everything. A fundamental part of wisdom is recognizing the limits to your knowledge.

You're right. You win. It was a stupid way for JMS to handle it.

Now then, since you're a writer, how would you have handled it? In the same amount of time that JMS took, keeping all other elements the same, how would you have done it? No fair cutting anything else, assume it's all critical.

Perhaps it was worth a quick handwave for the sake of the story being told? IMO it was, because the show wasn't about the tech, it was about the people.

Jan

 

[Kegg]

The whole Lorien thing in general is pretty mystical, particularly the idea that the old ones have really long life spans and his backstory is something of a creation myth. I think the idea is pretty consistent with the quasi-magical attributes of the Babylon 5-verse that JMS seemed rather fond of - it's not a hard SF reality, even if it has some hard SF elements. This is more of the Lord of the Rings/Lovecraft influence showing, really. Sheridan's return has more to do with Gandalf the White than it does medical science.

Honestly, though, I'd always felt Lorien's line about being unable to create life and only give a portion back sounded suspiciously similar to a line Klaatu gives in "The Day the Earth Stood Still", but I disgress.

 

[Mistral]

^You're still not getting my point. Some things are random. That means they are by definition impossible to predict. Ultimate knowledge of a particular science does not give you the ability to predict the future perfectly. On the contrary, the more we learn about the universe, the more we understand how impossible perfect prediction is. Modern quantum physics gives us a far more advanced knowledge of the universe than Isaac Newton had, but while Newton believe the universe was perfectly deterministic and its future could be exactly predicted with enough information, our far greater knowledge tells us that it's impossible due to quantum indeterminacy, chaos theory, and the like. The more you know about the universe, the more you become aware of its mechanisms for uncertainty, chaos, and randomness. So a more enlightened science would be less likely to contain simple "This will happen at X time" predictions than a less enlightened science that's less aware of the uncertainties involved. A more enlightened science will be able to give a more informed estimate of the uncertainty around the peak of the bell curve.

Only the ignorant assume they can know everything. A fundamental part of wisdom is recognizing the limits to your knowledge.

You're right. You win. It was a stupid way for JMS to handle it.

Now then, since you're a writer, how would you have handled it? In the same amount of time that JMS took, keeping all other elements the same, how would you have done it? No fair cutting anything else, assume it's all critical.

Perhaps it was worth a quick handwave for the sake of the story being told? IMO it was, because the show wasn't about the tech, it was about the people.

Jan

Thanks, Jan. I fear the conversation was about to deteriorate radically, with myself banned as a result.

 

[Forbin]

This kind of questioning, concentrated mind is what makes Christopher such a good writer.

But... can we move on now?

 

[Snaploud]

Also, Christopher, it's not as if Sheridan just *died* after 20 years. He seemed hard-wired (nanite-manipulated?) to find Lorien after those 20 years, and it was Lorien that turned him into something else (a being of light, perhaps?). Or perhaps 20 years was how long it would take to turn Sheridan into that higher being (using those nanites), and Lorien simply meant that Sheridan would only live in his current form for another 20 years.

 

[Neroon]

This kind of questioning, concentrated mind is what makes Christopher such a good writer.

But... can we move on now?

Well said, and well-timed.

 

[stonester1]

Also, Christopher, it's not as if Sheridan just *died* after 20 years. He seemed hard-wired (nanite-manipulated?) to find Lorien after those 20 years, and it was Lorien that turned him into something else (a being of light, perhaps?). Or perhaps 20 years was how long it would take to turn Sheridan into that higher being (using those nanites), and Lorien simply meant that Sheridan would only live in his current form for another 20 years.

No nanites. Those are for primitives. Might as well be using flint to make fire.

Might as well be using fire.